• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:30
CEST 23:30
KST 06:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed14Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 739 users

How good can you get with low APM? - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
BrenttheGreat
Profile Joined July 2010
United States150 Posts
July 04 2010 21:43 GMT
#121
I have been #1 diamond in 2's,3's, and 4's with only 61apm average. I think 70's is sufficient to be pretty good but against the top 1:1 players you will need closer to 100. Keep your actions efficient and remember to do the basics and I think you will do well.
kodancer
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States89 Posts
July 04 2010 21:53 GMT
#122
imo apm doesn't really matter for the casual gamers. However, to reach the top of the ladder, you'll need to work on your apm, which should go up with regularly playing anyway, because you're competing against mostly bw players with incredibly high apm. Their apm might decrease minutely from bw to sc2, but it's high enough to tackle the highest multitasking in sc2, at least better suited compared to someone with an average apm. You're going to be at a disadvantage especially in the late games because of this.

APM isn't like your IQ per say. It'll gradually increase with time so don't get your hopes down.
Precipice
Profile Joined April 2010
United States121 Posts
July 04 2010 21:55 GMT
#123
The first time I tested my apm in an rts game I went about 60. At my peak I have been over 200. I have never done anything to work on apm.
Mastery is the fruit of repetition
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
July 04 2010 21:59 GMT
#124
In sc2, APM doesn't matter much unlike in scbw. In sc2, I play around 150-200 APM, most of it is ineffective (such as clicking the same spot many times), and there is simply nothing more I can think of doing.
Iron_
Profile Joined April 2010
United States389 Posts
July 04 2010 22:04 GMT
#125
Having been on the pro gaming scene for a while back in the age series, I got a chance to see a lot of players live. One reason some of the pro's are extremely high (180 SC2 or so) is that they basically "spaz out" while they are thinking, IE clicking a waypoint a million times while they decide where to park their army. They obviously do this off the start as well to get that spike while nothing is going on.

In the largest tournament I ever played in (50K first place) I tried to match the Korean players (CNS_Grunt) APM and made some very simple errors which helped lose the game. Dont every try to increase APM just because. Only work on it if your brain is telling you to do more but you just cant get to it. In order to effectively use all 100 APM or more you need to be thinking ahead and really know the game first I believe.
kavaron
Profile Joined April 2010
Greece22 Posts
July 04 2010 22:08 GMT
#126
I am low diamond rank with 35 APM average... Yes.. 35

During heavy battles I touch 80apm. IMO SC2 is more about the build order and dirty tactics than battle management.

Rkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1278 Posts
July 04 2010 22:12 GMT
#127
in BW, i steadily climb, (almost 10-15 a week or so when playing heavily) and have currently about 120-130 in a non spamming game. In SC2, i am usually around 60-70, but i was #1 platinum at the end of the beta.
shawster
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada2485 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-04 22:19:50
July 04 2010 22:15 GMT
#128
On July 05 2010 05:24 wsfosho wrote:
Height and APM are about the same thing. In the NBA, after you reach a certain height, you can only get so much better. After about 6'2 for example, it doesn't really matter how tall you are when you are competing. The best player in the game was 6'6 - Michael Jordan. If you're 7'6 like Shawn Bradley, it doesn't guarantee you will be the best.

You can also compare IQ and APM. After a certain IQ - 120, you are deemed a genius. If you have a 195 IQ, it doesn't mean that you will be highly successful. Christopher Langan had a 195 IQ and he is a bouncer. What it takes to be successful at this game is creativity. These are the kind of people who wins Nobel Prizes - not everyone above 120 will have one.


you're wrong

creativity only goes so far, mechanics prevail after the strats have been discovered. nobel prize winners aren't the best players, or in this case just because i invented 14 pool doesn't mean i am the best.

once this game is live and people start playing it apm will matter a lot more, once you get to a higher level i think this game will become more of a macro game again. right now it seems like 80% of my matches are 2base 3base rather then intense macro games. that's just because this game is new and timings haven't been mapped out. play more, macro more, train more and your apm will increase.

mechanics matter, and i don't think we'll be able to macro 5 bases with 70 apm.
TheDna
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany577 Posts
July 04 2010 23:02 GMT
#129
On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).


Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need.
APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare.
There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-05 00:48:26
July 05 2010 00:43 GMT
#130
On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).


Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need.
APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare.
There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.


While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it.
Moderator
Broodfather
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11 Posts
July 05 2010 01:14 GMT
#131
APM isn't as important as knowing what to do in what situation, especially with the "early aggression and timing" you spoke of.

As posted above, the timing of your accuracy/precision with macro/micro is most important, it's my personal opinion that 15%-25% of all players' APM is due to extra (and un-needed) actions {Please don't destroy me if you disagree}.

Please watch your replays, I was like you once but it actually works
"Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me..."
torm
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada274 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-05 01:23:47
July 05 2010 01:21 GMT
#132
The basis of this thread and 90% of the replies are pointless. APM is NOT a measure of skill, it may be correlated with skill but again, IT IS NOT A MEASURE OF SKILL. All of these "u ned 2 hav liek 100+ apm if u wana b da numba 1 playa" replies are so far off from reality. You should simply be looking for productive things to do with your time as you play as opposed to thinking about what you could click on to boost your APM. As long as you are doing everything you need to be doing, you can be the best player in the entire universe, and if you are doing everything you need to be doing, your APM will naturally be "higher". I say "higher" because, again, APM is ONLY CORRELATED WITH SKILL, nothing more.

Dramatized example: I want to move my drone from my main to my natural, I can:
a) guide my drone to my natural by clicking nine thousand and one times on my natural, or
b) click once on my natural

"actions" for (a): 9002
"actions" for (b): 2
Result? Exactly the same.

It is for this reason that the common phrase "BW REQUIRES MOAR APM DEN SC2 SO LIEK U NED 2 HAV ' X ' AMOUNT OF APM 2 B COMPETITIV IN BW" is stupid. BW does not require more APM, there are simply more things that need to be done, and more often in BW. i.e. you cannot "s" larva, and hold "d" to turn all your larvae into drones in two button presses in BW, but you have to manually go to each hatchery and do it. This is an example of having to do the same thing more often. And the lack of automine in BW means that you have to manually move your workers onto mineral patches, an example of more things that need to be done. Thus, you are most likely going to have a "higher" APM in BW, but there is no magic APM range that you NEED to be in to be a competitive player.

I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the contributors in this thread were sporting the new razer flashybutton APM tracking mouse. Focus on doing what you need to do and stop wasting your time worrying about useless statistics such as APM if you have any hope of being good at this game.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
July 05 2010 01:29 GMT
#133
On July 05 2010 10:21 torm wrote:
It is for this reason that the common phrase "BW REQUIRES MOAR APM DEN SC2 SO LIEK U NED 2 HAV ' X ' AMOUNT OF APM 2 B COMPETITIV IN BW" is stupid. BW does not require more APM, there are simply more things that need to be done, and more often in BW. i.e. you cannot "s" larva, and hold "d" to turn all your larvae into drones in two button presses in BW, but you have to manually go to each hatchery and do it. This is an example of having to do the same thing more often. And the lack of automine in BW means that you have to manually move your workers onto mineral patches, an example of more things that need to be done. Thus, you are most likely going to have a "higher" APM in BW, but there is no magic APM range that you NEED to be in to be a competitive player.


Seriously? You explained in your own post why BW requires more APM than SC2. To get the same thing done you need more clicks, thus more APM. Of course the game doesn't absolutely require anything, but to be good it does.

There is a minimum amount of APM you need to get everything done. I play(pretty poorly) at around 60 APM and I'm pretty efficient about it(I don't click things extra or spam my hotkeys for no reason) and I feel like I can't manage everything going on once I get past 2 bases.
Moderator
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
July 05 2010 02:29 GMT
#134
right now APM of 70 should be sufficient. However when the beta closes and the real game begins apm of 70 won't be nearly enough to be close to top. BW at the start was more about what you build, what you do with the APM and how efficient you can make the build work. However as time went by APM (speed) became more important because large number of people figured out how to use builds efficiently and where to use their APM on. So people needed something "extra" to win. Right now creativity and efficient builds will push you to the top but eventually APM will be the deciding factor. Unless someone is willing to suggest a person with low APM can get into A or B or even C in ICCup.
Hi!
Accer
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)319 Posts
July 05 2010 02:41 GMT
#135
I think Day9 brought this up a few dailies back, but basically, your APM is typically based on your familiarity with the game and your chosen build orders. As you practice and ultimately memorize your build order you should see an increase in your APM, the thing slowing you down is not your physical reflexes but your mental multitasking ability. Once you have a build memorized you can focus on controlling troops instead of deciding which unit/building to build and where to build it.
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
July 05 2010 03:07 GMT
#136
I think a much more apt comparison to APM/SC ability is running speed and soccer (or UF). Running speed both refers to spontaneous speed in intense moments (defending an attack at the goal, or micro during battles), as well as overall endurance/average apm. In both cases, APM/speed is a part of overall "mechanical" skill (other skills being passing or sim city construction). At the ultimate end of the spectrum, 0 APM/movement, you will never win a game, period. For average players, (copper-plat, or pickup games), speed is certainly beneficial factor, but a team with slow players can certainly win with superior positioning, teamwork and tactics.

However, it's also very much possible to have inferior teamwork, tactics, positioning and still beat (even decimate) an opponent simply due to better mechanics. And at a competitive level, good apm/speed is a requisite for good play.
0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
tfmdjeff
Profile Joined June 2010
United States170 Posts
July 05 2010 03:21 GMT
#137
You don't want a really low APM. But when I say that I don't mean you should spam APM just for the sake of spamming. As you improve in SC2, you'll find that your APM just gets higher because you have a better understanding of what you want to do so you'll end up just doing it faster. When I started playing the beta my APM was about 60, but as I got better it quickly went up to 120.

I'd say aim for 120-170 apm. Any higher is unnecessary, any lower and you potentially won't be working as fast as your opponent and it can put you behind.
TheDna
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany577 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-05 03:25:42
July 05 2010 03:25 GMT
#138
On July 05 2010 09:43 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:
On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).


Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need.
APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare.
There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.


While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it.


Right now the game isnt even released
I m curious if you even find sc classic beta replays with players having >50 APM
Because thats where we are right now with sc2!
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-05 03:38:59
July 05 2010 03:38 GMT
#139
On July 05 2010 12:25 TheDna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2010 09:43 Myles wrote:
On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:
On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).


Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need.
APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare.
There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.


While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it.


Right now the game isnt even released
I m curious if you even find sc classic beta replays with players having >50 APM
Because thats where we are right now with sc2!


No, were not. I buy the SC2 in a new game so we don't know all the possible strategies, but the mechanics are pretty much the same, just easier. Unless a bunch of micro-intensive tricks are found, SC2 won't require as high of APM to keep up with everything. I'd like to think it's possible, but I don't think the odds are good.
Moderator
virgozero
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada412 Posts
July 05 2010 03:38 GMT
#140
Wow every response so far has been so dumb.
I am by no means a pro gamer only a top5 platty but I can reason the value of apm easily and I am sure everyone can.

How much apm do we need to send probes to mind and make a robe?
10?

How much apm do we need to move 7 stalkers from hotkey 1 to point A and move 3 zealots to point B from htokey 2 and create 2 guardian shields and 3 accurate force fields and then individually blinking stalkers to the back and at the same time chrono boosting your warp gates and making a probe on your natural and building another forge and gateway all at the same instance?
500?

My point is apm on itself is an arbitrary useless number.
What you should be looking at is the Apm/Anpm
actions per minute over actions needed per minute to create 100% efficient macro+micro

whitera may have 120apm and kick ass but that is 120 AVERAGE apl that does not mean Jack shit. Look at whitera when he's battling with 3 bases, his apm goes well above 200 and even ten you can see whiteras macro is not anything near efficient, but hel, the only person that seems to do better Is idra who has 250+ apm from pure macro (who also happened to practice 12 hours a day)

husky caster a game between tlo and sen where they were both scouting and fiddling with their probes, their apm was over 300. Yet tlos avrg apm is only about 150max, goes to show you how bullshit average apm is.
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 31m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub205
UpATreeSC 136
Nathanias 109
JuggernautJason78
CosmosSc2 43
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2581
Larva 923
TY 256
Mini 193
[sc1f]eonzerg 11
League of Legends
Dendi1785
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K757
flusha271
oskar247
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu556
Other Games
tarik_tv6467
FrodaN2445
summit1g2153
shahzam1567
C9.Mang0208
RotterdaM134
ViBE124
Skadoodle102
Sick55
Trikslyr53
Livibee49
PPMD38
Liquid`Ken3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2673
StarCraft 2
angryscii 34
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH235
• davetesta8
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki12
• Eskiya23 10
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Stormgate
• mYiSmile10
Dota 2
• masondota22240
League of Legends
• TFBlade864
Other Games
• imaqtpie1980
• Scarra951
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 31m
OSC
2h 31m
Epic.LAN
14h 31m
Big Brain Bouts
18h 31m
sebesdes vs SpeCial
Harstem vs YoungYakov
GgMaChine vs uThermal
CranKy Ducklings
1d 12h
Epic.LAN
1d 14h
CSO Contender
1d 19h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 20h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
4 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

JPL Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.