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On May 30 2011 04:48 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:41 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat, you lose a view in me as well as others by continuing to have people like Steven Bonnel on your show. I hope that you won't let him on again. That's sad to hear. Because I think you're taking one show and turning it into a representation of what every show is. Throughout my years of broadcasting I've had my fair share of "controversial" guests and I wouldn't regret having any of them on. I'd like to think that we're all mature enough to hear an opinion, even if not agreed with, and come to our own conclusions about the topic(s). That is the nature of discussion and even call in shows for that matter.
Let me rephrase what I said, as I realized I was clumsy with my wording. I thoroughly enjoy your casting and your personality, no matter where it is you come up. Big fan 
If immaturity such as that displayed by Steven Bonnel becomes a normal occurrence on your show, I will feel less inclined to tune in. There is a big difference between people like Steven Bonnel and say, Idra. Idra gets a little immature, but in a lot less insensitive of ways. He's still fun to hear from and I enjoy him being on your or others shows. I just really derive no entertainment from hearing racial slurs and the like. At this point, it doesn't seem like I have anything to worry about. Thanks for reading our feedback and taking it into consideration. I realize that no one person or one group should take priority over another.
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When is the VOD gonna be up for this? I feel like I missed out...
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On May 30 2011 04:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:46 Midgetman101 wrote:On May 30 2011 04:41 Mohdoo wrote:
Its sad how Steven Bonnel thinks that getting a lot of viewers means that most people aren't offended by his wording. The reason he gets a lot of viewers is because his bad manner and immaturity appeals a lot to the younger crowd who get a kick out of it. And Steve Bonnel just so happens to do a very good job at appealing to that crowd. And that crowd just so happens to not have much going on in their lives and thus watch his stream a lot.
As for the main topic at hand,
DJWheat, you lose a view in me as well as others by continuing to have people like Steven Bonnel on your show. I hope that you won't let him on again. thats nice too bad thousands love him Where in my post did I say no one did? If you read my post, you'll notice that I actually say exactly what you said. Thousands love him, and I go into why that is. Can you elaborate on what part of my post you struggled with? I can try to explain it more thoroughly if you'd like. You see, when high school aged males are growing up, there are often higher levels of testosterone going through their bodies than they are used to. This causes behavior which is more aggressive and makes people derive pleasure in making people angry. Its actually proven that higher testosterone levels make people derive pleasure from making other people angry. Just so happens that high school aged guys have increased levels of it, which is why we see a lot of mindless high school aged people on the internet doing things like trolling, flaming, etc. Those types of people get a big kick out of seeing others do the same thing. For someone who is older, such as Steven Bonnel, just from being older, he is able to do it a lot better than the kids who watch him. He's had more experience and knows how it can be most effective. So all he has to do is appeal really strongly to that kind of an age group, which are the ones who have the most free time to watch his stream, and he'll get a ton of viewers and make a lot of money. In essence, because high school aged males have a hard time adapting to changes in their new testosterone, they derive a lot more pleasure out of this sort of silliness than those of us who have already moved past that. For us, its just annoying and a buzz kill. Hope this clears things up and that you are able to respond maturely. Cheers
That is so ignorant it actually hurts me to read.
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On May 30 2011 03:53 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:46 cocaineduck wrote:On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity. Why does a jewish person understand the history books better than me? Memory is NOT genetic in any way. They identify with a group that this happened to. They dont understand the happening itself any better or any worse than anyone else. Because the only interaction you have with the Holocaust is whatever you read in your history books. Jews continue to live out the ramifications of the Holocaust in their daily interactions with their family and culture, whether it be stories from Holocaust survivors or cultural practices centered around the event. They might not understand the degradation that Holocaust victims themselves actually went through, but they certainly understand it on a deeper level than non-Jews.
So the difference is basicly that they read about it more than me then? Is that what you mean?
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While you may not agree with Destiny's argument in this case, threatening to not watch the show if he ever comes on again is rather pathetic. Wheat has always had unpopular guests on his show while taking the part of a neutral observer, and I hope he will continue to do so.
Wanting to silence the opinions you disagree with though, reminds me of the saying :"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
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On May 30 2011 04:40 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:31 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote:On May 30 2011 03:18 Hatsu wrote:On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote:
I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
Perhaps I am not black nor I have been raped (though the closest person to me has been). But I cannot see in 3d, have been severely bullied at school, lost a parent to alcohol and suffer from severe migraines. Every time someone mentions 3d movies, bullying, alcohol, cancer and headaches I am reminded of such miseries and I feel horrible for a bit. So please stop talking about them, because a tiny minority of the population is like me and might suffer from it. Come on. That opening sentence was supposed to open your eyes about a particular weight these words historically carry. I hope you were able to read past it to see my whole post. let me re-quote Cusu's post, which I believe is pretty crucial. CusuOn the same token by using "nigger" you may not be at all describing or relating it to black people, but you mean it in a negative way and that word unfortunately DOES relate to black people. I am sorry to say that historically your words do not carry the same weight as the above - (nigger, fag, etc, etc). And I agree, not everyone can be spared from being offended. But nigger and faggot are two words that cannot be spoken against someone in a way that doesn't relate an entire population of people in an extremely negative way. We all know how history has shaped them. Quite simply, they have no place in a professional StarCraft cast. Destiny streams to his own audience, and I accept mature language/content age-gate every time I tune in so I know what I'm getting into, and I think he's a pretty damn funny guy. But imagine if a NASL/TSL/etc caster busted out with a "Holy shit that nigger just got raped!" or something using these inflammatory words to describe StarCraft (seperate context) when one player suffers a crushing loss to another... how would that reflect on the caster? The organization behind the tournament as a whole? Pretty poorly, in my opinion because they are allowing themselves to "ignore" and "forget" the history of this historically charged and weighted word. I did read your whole post, I quoted just your first line simply because it is a wrong assumption. My point is that everyone will come across something, during some cast, that somewhat offends/hurts him on a personal level. I am sure a lot of people can relate to this. People need to go past such things. Once you actually realize that words DO change meaning according to the context, you will also understand that whatever was said was not meant to offend you. Sure, you may still feel shitty about it for a moment, but to overcome that feeling is actually a crucial step in getting over whatever happened to you.
Was it a wrong assumption? Maybe. I'd argue that if a poll was taken on the general demographic of these forums the majority would be white/males. But this is a bit off-topic, so I apologize.
The point is I don't want to censor Destiny. He says and does what he wants, which is OK by me. I'm not pointing fingers, calling him racist (though his last post about minorities not wanting or willing to rise out of poverty screams ignorance-- I still don't believe him to be a racist). Words can change meaning according to context, but if you push aside the history of a word as powerful as this in exchange for an out-of-context witty remark, it's a massive disservice and 'shrug of the shoulders' to all the minorities (blacks, gays, etc) that still face these words in a discriminatory manner to this day.
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On May 30 2011 04:56 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:53 Mohdoo wrote:On May 30 2011 04:46 Midgetman101 wrote:On May 30 2011 04:41 Mohdoo wrote:
Its sad how Steven Bonnel thinks that getting a lot of viewers means that most people aren't offended by his wording. The reason he gets a lot of viewers is because his bad manner and immaturity appeals a lot to the younger crowd who get a kick out of it. And Steve Bonnel just so happens to do a very good job at appealing to that crowd. And that crowd just so happens to not have much going on in their lives and thus watch his stream a lot.
As for the main topic at hand,
DJWheat, you lose a view in me as well as others by continuing to have people like Steven Bonnel on your show. I hope that you won't let him on again. thats nice too bad thousands love him Where in my post did I say no one did? If you read my post, you'll notice that I actually say exactly what you said. Thousands love him, and I go into why that is. Can you elaborate on what part of my post you struggled with? I can try to explain it more thoroughly if you'd like. You see, when high school aged males are growing up, there are often higher levels of testosterone going through their bodies than they are used to. This causes behavior which is more aggressive and makes people derive pleasure in making people angry. Its actually proven that higher testosterone levels make people derive pleasure from making other people angry. Just so happens that high school aged guys have increased levels of it, which is why we see a lot of mindless high school aged people on the internet doing things like trolling, flaming, etc. Those types of people get a big kick out of seeing others do the same thing. For someone who is older, such as Steven Bonnel, just from being older, he is able to do it a lot better than the kids who watch him. He's had more experience and knows how it can be most effective. So all he has to do is appeal really strongly to that kind of an age group, which are the ones who have the most free time to watch his stream, and he'll get a ton of viewers and make a lot of money. In essence, because high school aged males have a hard time adapting to changes in their new testosterone, they derive a lot more pleasure out of this sort of silliness than those of us who have already moved past that. For us, its just annoying and a buzz kill. Hope this clears things up and that you are able to respond maturely. Cheers That is so ignorant it actually hurts me to read.
Care to enlighten me? You've actually not done very much to elaborate on the specifics. From where I stand, you have no argument worth making, so you are trying to compensate with insults. I would be happy to read any posts you make to correct my misunderstandings.
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On May 30 2011 04:23 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:14 Dystisis wrote:On May 30 2011 04:08 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity. I can't possibly understand how you could say someone today who hears the word "nigger" can automatically identify with the horrible/atrocious living situations of people 50 years in the past. If you believe they can relate to such an environment, we see reality very differently, and there's no point in discussing it. It doesn't matter. Look at the relationship between poverty and race in the US today. Look at the relationship between incarcerations and race in the US today. Look at the impact of economical imperialism in non-Western countries today. After this, tell me no one should find usage of the word "nigger" denoting domination offensive. You don't have to go 50 years back in time to find atrocious living situations. Except today's people who live in impoverished conditions all have the opportunity to rise above them. At the moment, a large majority of them choose not to. To say that black people today are impoverished for the same reason as black people 100 years ago is an absolutely ridiculous statement. I'm not completely naive, and I do acknowledge that racism is very much alive and well in some parts of society today, but there are definitely opportunities for ANYONE in America to succeed today, regardless of race.
This is just wrong and ignorant.
~Income Mobility Facts~
1. New estimates on intergenerational income from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics suggest that people stay in the same class location approximately 40% of the time, more than previously thought. It continues:
Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2117312
2. And income inequality/mobility is worse in the US than many other countries, and social mobility has slowed since '75.
Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/3844789
3. A rising tide does not lift all boats - income inequality has grown substantially since the 70s.
Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2138234
4. Origin-destination trends (your income level matching where you came from) is weakest in social democratic societies and strongest in liberal welfare societies (the U.S.)
Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...439f5ceb8bb2b5d
The reality for poor in the us is much bleaker than just "rise above it".
(Copy pasting links and summary from another forum since it's such a good short summary)
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 30 2011 04:55 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I can't believe that people honestly believe that entire groups of people today in the United States are being sysmatically and racially "kept down" by "the man".
If you're talking about "maturity", it sounds to me like there are a bunch of "self-enlightened" 18-22 year olds here who think that because they've taken Black Studies 101, or read >insert random internet article< here, that they're able to make definitive statements about races of people being kept down in the USA.
Does racism still exist today in the United States? Definitely.
Is it anywhere NEAR COMPARABLE to the racism that existed even 50 years ago, let alone 100 years ago? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If you think it does, if you think that any person in the United States today can't attend a university using financial aid, or get a job somewhere if they work hard for it, you probably haven't spent much time outside of your dorm or college walls.
By the same token, I'm baffled as to what life experiences you've had that qualify you to talk about the African American experience in this country. You've clearly never cared to do any research or find out for yourself about how, why, and where poverty exists in the United States.
Appalling.
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and i am sure many will thank you for it djwheat !
i do
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On May 30 2011 04:55 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
If you're talking about "maturity", it sounds to me like there are a bunch of "self-enlightened" 18-22 year olds here
This sounds pretty ironic coming from an (I'm guessing) early 20s 'kid' not too far out of high school/college with basically no real world experience to speak of.
Going by my personal experience the only people who say this are "self-enlightened" 18-22 23-25 year olds" themselves.
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On May 30 2011 04:55 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I can't believe that people honestly believe that entire groups of people today in the United States are being sysmatically and racially "kept down" by "the man".
If you're talking about "maturity", it sounds to me like there are a bunch of "self-enlightened" 18-22 year olds here who think that because they've taken Black Studies 101, or read >insert random internet article< here, that they're able to make definitive statements about races of people being kept down in the USA.
Does racism still exist today in the United States? Definitely.
Is it anywhere NEAR COMPARABLE to the racism that existed even 50 years ago, let alone 100 years ago? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If you think it does, if you think that any person in the United States today can't attend a university using financial aid, or get a job somewhere if they work hard for it, you probably haven't spent much time outside of your dorm or college walls.
Dude, wow. You are an idiot, sorry to be rude. Did you go to college? High school? Honestly man, you are looking like SUCH a fool here it is quite embarrassing. You can be cute with words and try to misconstrue the facts by using funny catchphrases like "kept down by the man" to warp the reality, but the fact of the matter is that you are purely ignorant and as a result, racist due to your horrible misunderstanding of reality.
There is RESEARCH, HARD FACTS, that exist proving everything you've said incorrect. Get educated before you feebly attempt to argue like a complete fool on a subject about which you know utterly nothing.
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On May 30 2011 05:00 trw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:23 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:On May 30 2011 04:14 Dystisis wrote:On May 30 2011 04:08 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity. I can't possibly understand how you could say someone today who hears the word "nigger" can automatically identify with the horrible/atrocious living situations of people 50 years in the past. If you believe they can relate to such an environment, we see reality very differently, and there's no point in discussing it. It doesn't matter. Look at the relationship between poverty and race in the US today. Look at the relationship between incarcerations and race in the US today. Look at the impact of economical imperialism in non-Western countries today. After this, tell me no one should find usage of the word "nigger" denoting domination offensive. You don't have to go 50 years back in time to find atrocious living situations. Except today's people who live in impoverished conditions all have the opportunity to rise above them. At the moment, a large majority of them choose not to. To say that black people today are impoverished for the same reason as black people 100 years ago is an absolutely ridiculous statement. I'm not completely naive, and I do acknowledge that racism is very much alive and well in some parts of society today, but there are definitely opportunities for ANYONE in America to succeed today, regardless of race. This is just wrong and ignorant. ~Income Mobility Facts~ 1. New estimates on intergenerational income from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics suggest that people stay in the same class location approximately 40% of the time, more than previously thought. It continues: Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/21173122. And income inequality/mobility is worse in the US than many other countries, and social mobility has slowed since '75. Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/38447893. A rising tide does not lift all boats - income inequality has grown substantially since the 70s. Source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/21382344. Origin-destination trends (your income level matching where you came from) is weakest in social democratic societies and strongest in liberal welfare societies (the U.S.) Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...439f5ceb8bb2b5dThe reality for poor in the us is much bleaker than just "rise above it".
good post sir
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The thing is Steve you talk about racism in the USA when your show is able to reach a global audience. Perhaps you should start considering your audience as a global audience as opposed to one the just resides in the USA.
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On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity.
Both my granddads fought the germans and were made war prisoners in World War 2. It's part of "my history" but I do NOT know what it is to be in a german camp.
Don't call people ignorant just because they don't share your views.
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I think it's amusing how, while arguing with Destiny about his choice of words on his stream, so many people are insulting his viewerbase. In the previous page alone I, a 25 year old student from the Netherlands currently working on my final paper who enjoys watching Destiny's stream, have been called "a kid with not a lot going on in my life", who's either "racist or cool with racism".
I wasn't going to post this, because I think the thread is getting derailed a little, but I think this really needs to be said.
I am from the Netherlands. We have a soccer team called Ajax here who's supporters take pride in calling themselves "Jews", regardless of the fact that it was originally used as an insult towards them. When I hear the word "Nigger", I'm probably listening to some populair rap song, most likely performed by a black artist.
These words do not have the same meaning to me as they apparently do to a lot of American people. Although I don't use words like these myself because I'm able to express myself without using them, I think it's important to defend ANYONE's right to say ANYTHING they want, even if others feel offended by it (within the limits of the law ofcourse). More importantly though, Americans posting in this thread need to take a moment to realise that the value words have to them is not always the same to the rest of the world. I think a lot of people who do NOT take offense to what's been said are not American, and have a different view on what the "meaning" or "context" of these words is exactly.
I also want to add, thank you DjWheat for bringing Destiny on your stream to discuss the issue, and even more for bringing in Incontrol knowing he had a completely opposite opinion. I think this is a very interesting discussion that needed to take place. I hope that the comments some people have made in this thread about no longer following weapon of choice because you allowed Destiny to defend his opinion do not discourage you from bringing in controversial people.
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I have been a big fan of Steven since beta, watched a lot of his stream before he went 'pro', I found his character very funny, because he didn't censor himself, which makes him pretty genuine and relatable to. And I think that using vulgar language, like the already stated words like rape is acceptable, as long as it serves a point. If it's an exclamation of rage, or just a way to make your point more clear, as long as it serves a point (Destiny's Baneling analogy is a great example imo), it's pretty acceptable.
But if these words are used and tossed in every line that someone uses, he just comes off looking like a dipshit.
Think off all those famous comedians, would you still watch them if they'd never say a dirty word again? No, they use vulgar words, for the shock-effect to a extent, and to 'stylize' or 'visualize' something graphically, which is the main reason for a good comedian. Take for example George Carlin.
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On May 30 2011 05:10 DizzyDrone wrote:
I think it's amusing how, while arguing with Destiny about his choice of words on his stream, so many people are insulting his viewerbase. In the previous page alone I, a 25 year old student from the Netherlands currently working on my final paper and enjoys watching Destiny's stream, have been called "a kid with not a lot going on in my life", who's either "racist or cool with racism".
I wasn't going to post this, because I think the thread is getting derailed a little, but I think this really needs to be said.
I am from the Netherlands. We have a soccer team called Ajax here who's supporters take pride in calling themselves "Jews", regardless of the fact that it was originally used as an insult towards them. When I hear the word "Nigger", I'm probably listening to some populair rap song, most likely performed by a black artist.
These words do not have the same meaning to me as they apparently do to a lot of American people. Although I don't use words like these myself because I'm able to express myself without using them, I think it's important to defend ANYONE's right to say or think ANYTHING they want, even if others feel offended by it, as long as they are not inciting criminal acts.
+1
True words.
Great post, thank you!
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On May 30 2011 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:56 Kazang wrote:On May 30 2011 04:53 Mohdoo wrote:On May 30 2011 04:46 Midgetman101 wrote:On May 30 2011 04:41 Mohdoo wrote:
Its sad how Steven Bonnel thinks that getting a lot of viewers means that most people aren't offended by his wording. The reason he gets a lot of viewers is because his bad manner and immaturity appeals a lot to the younger crowd who get a kick out of it. And Steve Bonnel just so happens to do a very good job at appealing to that crowd. And that crowd just so happens to not have much going on in their lives and thus watch his stream a lot.
As for the main topic at hand,
DJWheat, you lose a view in me as well as others by continuing to have people like Steven Bonnel on your show. I hope that you won't let him on again. thats nice too bad thousands love him Where in my post did I say no one did? If you read my post, you'll notice that I actually say exactly what you said. Thousands love him, and I go into why that is. Can you elaborate on what part of my post you struggled with? I can try to explain it more thoroughly if you'd like. You see, when high school aged males are growing up, there are often higher levels of testosterone going through their bodies than they are used to. This causes behavior which is more aggressive and makes people derive pleasure in making people angry. Its actually proven that higher testosterone levels make people derive pleasure from making other people angry. Just so happens that high school aged guys have increased levels of it, which is why we see a lot of mindless high school aged people on the internet doing things like trolling, flaming, etc. Those types of people get a big kick out of seeing others do the same thing. For someone who is older, such as Steven Bonnel, just from being older, he is able to do it a lot better than the kids who watch him. He's had more experience and knows how it can be most effective. So all he has to do is appeal really strongly to that kind of an age group, which are the ones who have the most free time to watch his stream, and he'll get a ton of viewers and make a lot of money. In essence, because high school aged males have a hard time adapting to changes in their new testosterone, they derive a lot more pleasure out of this sort of silliness than those of us who have already moved past that. For us, its just annoying and a buzz kill. Hope this clears things up and that you are able to respond maturely. Cheers That is so ignorant it actually hurts me to read. Care to enlighten me? You've actually not done very much to elaborate on the specifics. From where I stand, you have no argument worth making, so you are trying to compensate with insults. I would be happy to read any posts you make to correct my misunderstandings.
You can't be serious.
Your entire post is based on uniformed conjecture. That is why it is so ignorant and pathetic and why it hurts me to imagine someone being so truly ignorant.
Testosterone levels? Really? Really? Are you going around giving blood tests to destiny's stream viewers? Making judgements about their hormone balance and life? You enjoy sticking your needle in "high school males"?
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EPT
