|
You can argue that Incontrol's offends are "less offensive" (which I agree to btw), still it is highly hypocritical behaviour of him. Thats my point.
BTW: To be clear, I totally think that Incontrol was 100% right on today's show. But I just have the feeling that he just did that for himself to get some PR points in the community.
I get that feeling to, given his long track record of pseudo-racism and "I don't give a fuck" attitude. I mean... he called in to a pizza place and used a fake indian accent when a black lady was on the other side of the phone.
That's not immature racism??
|
On May 30 2011 05:54 kardinal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 05:47 Endbringer wrote:
A slur is not a normal curse word. "Fuck" is a curse word. The N word is an insult towards an entire race of people. Its a slur because you are equating a negative situation or person with a black person and not in a positive manner. You are saying the other is "black" and that being black is a bad thing. The context doesn't matter, thats the meaning of what you are saying. Apple meet Orange. In your worldview it's not. Don't try to assume everyone agrees with it. If everyone did then we wouldn't be having this wonderful discussion in the first place.
You're assuming all points of views in this discussion are valid, educated or on an equal level of acceptance.
Those who don't agree, might be disagreeing for a very, very ignorant and shallow reason.
|
On May 30 2011 05:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Sigh, why can't Destiny take one course of basic Sociology.
Just one, that's all I'm asking D:
Academia doesn't have a monopoly on enlightened views of society you know.
|
On May 30 2011 05:54 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +You can argue that Incontrol's offends are "less offensive" (which I agree to btw), still it is highly hypocritical behaviour of him. Thats my point.
BTW: To be clear, I totally think that Incontrol was 100% right on today's show. But I just have the feeling that he just did that for himself to get some PR points in the community. I get that feeling to, given his long track record of pseudo-racism and "I don't give a fuck" attitude. I mean... he called in to a pizza place and used a fake indian accent when a black lady was on the other side of the phone. That's not immature racism??
Well it's immature.
|
On May 30 2011 05:55 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 05:54 kardinal wrote:On May 30 2011 05:47 Endbringer wrote:
A slur is not a normal curse word. "Fuck" is a curse word. The N word is an insult towards an entire race of people. Its a slur because you are equating a negative situation or person with a black person and not in a positive manner. You are saying the other is "black" and that being black is a bad thing. The context doesn't matter, thats the meaning of what you are saying. Apple meet Orange. In your worldview it's not. Don't try to assume everyone agrees with it. If everyone did then we wouldn't be having this wonderful discussion in the first place. You're assuming all points of views in this discussion are valid, educated or on an equal level of acceptance. Those who don't agree, might be disagreeing for a very, very ignorant and shallow reason.
Yes, I agree.
|
Incontrol makes bad and offensive jokes that are funny only to himself, and then says he's obviously trolling and people are stupid to take his words seriously when they point it out.
So yes that's very hypocritical of him.
|
it really blows my mind that people are still offended by words in fucking 2011. i personally can't stand destiny's attitude and i would never watch his stream, but i respect him for having the correct point of view on this. why would anyone care what words anyone else uses? thats just really fucking stupid. on top of that, there are plenty of words/phrases that offend people that no one has even brought up, like:
- any cuss word
- retard: this is used constantly, i know my mother gets offended at this one
- down syndrome
- moron: this is a psychological term used in the eugenics movement
- "kill yourself": i hear this a lot
there are plenty more. personally i'm not going to sit around worrying about whether or not what i say is going to offend some idiot, and i don't think anyone else should either.
i'd also like to point out that there are much much more heinous acts than rape, for example:
murder - yet no one gives a shit if i say "i murdered him!" after i win a ladder game
genocide - this is actually a term in HoN, when an entire team dies it says "genocide" in big red letters across the screen
i fell bad for anyone who has been raped, of course. this doesn't mean i'm going to tiptoe around with what i say in the hopes that i don't offend anyone. personally i think anyone taking deep emotional offense to what some guy says on a sc2 stream is either a complete fucking dumbass or has emotional issues that they need to deal with and it isn't my problem.
|
On May 30 2011 04:56 cocaineduck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:53 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:46 cocaineduck wrote:On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity. Why does a jewish person understand the history books better than me? Memory is NOT genetic in any way. They identify with a group that this happened to. They dont understand the happening itself any better or any worse than anyone else. Because the only interaction you have with the Holocaust is whatever you read in your history books. Jews continue to live out the ramifications of the Holocaust in their daily interactions with their family and culture, whether it be stories from Holocaust survivors or cultural practices centered around the event. They might not understand the degradation that Holocaust victims themselves actually went through, but they certainly understand it on a deeper level than non-Jews. So the difference is basicly that they read about it more than me then? Is that what you mean?
No, they have done a lot more than simply "read about it." Since I'm Korean, let me use Korean culture as an example. All Koreans grow up understanding the history of Japanese colonization not simply because they've read about it in their history classes, but because they've experienced this history through a variety of other sources. For instance, Koreans pay tribute to the women who were enslaved by the Japanese during WWII through their cultural practices (e.g., books, music, movies, museums, memorial events, etc.). Koreans learn about this history and vicariously experience this history through their daily interactions with their parents, grandparents, and other relatives who have personally experienced the degrading conditions imposed on them by the Japanese. As a result, Koreans understand the conditions of Japanese oppression on a much deeper level than what outsiders read about in their history books.
This is what I mean by "historical memory." When you grow up interacting with the ramifications of a historical event in your daily practices, this memory doesn't simply become a historical footnote, as it is for outsiders; it forms an integral part of your cultural identity and cultural memory. Outsiders cannot understand the significance of this historical memory to our daily lives because they have no experience with it outside of their history books.
|
On May 30 2011 06:01 rycho wrote:
it really blows my mind that people are still offended by words in fucking 2011. i personally can't stand destiny's attitude and i would never watch his stream, but i respect him for having the correct point of view on this. why would anyone care what words anyone else uses? thats just really fucking stupid. on top of that, there are plenty of words/phrases that offend people that no one has even brought up, like:
- any cuss word
- retard: this is used constantly, i know my mother gets offended at this one
- down syndrome
- moron: this is a psychological term used in the eugenics movement
- "kill yourself": i hear this a lot
there are plenty more. personally i'm not going to sit around worrying about whether or not what i say is going to offend some idiot, and i don't think anyone else should either.
i'd also like to point out that there are much much more heinous acts than rape, for example:
murder - yet no one gives a shit if i say "i murdered him!" after i win a ladder game
genocide - this is actually a term in HoN, when an entire team dies it says "genocide" in big red letters across the screen
i fell bad for anyone who has been raped, of course. this doesn't mean i'm going to tiptoe around with what i say in the hopes that i don't offend anyone. personally i think anyone taking deep emotional offense to what some guy says on a sc2 stream is either a complete fucking dumbass or has emotional issues that they need to deal with and it isn't my problem.
In your list: - Cuss words have become almost mainstream due to its considerable prominence in many shows and movies. The mass media is showing leniency and thus so does its society.
- Mentally deficient, I agree with "retard" being terrible, I haven't heard it used in very long however
- Haven't heard this either, may be true
- Moron is no longer a psychological term, brush up on your psych.
- What's wrong with "kill yourself"?
How do any of these have an oppressive nature to them?
You can complain to HoN about "genocide", there's nothing we can do here.
|
I always cringe when Incontrol does that 'Native American' accent(Chief Moon that Walks?) It's rather a stereotypical, racist portrayal of native american speech. I could see where some people would get offended by that. I just wish he'd try not to make fun of people's accents and nationalities so much. That can of stuff isn't really the kind of humor you do on broadcasts unless you want some backlash.
|
On May 30 2011 05:17 Ragoo wrote:
After watching today's episode of WoC I have to say that I might check out Destiny's stream in the future, even tho I normally don't watch any streaming. But he seems like a cool person who has the same opinion on the whole "bad language" issue that I have.
Incontrol on the other hand... I don't see what's bad about saying "rape" in the gaming context. It's just a gamer term for utterly defeating someone, just like you would say "own/pwn" or any form of act of physical violence like "annihilate/destroy/kill/...". These words don't have their original meaning in the gaming context.
When I say "MC totally raped Goody today" and you literally think about MC fucking Goody in the ass against his will, you are just fucked up, cause really, you should just think about a Protoss army rolling over tanks and such.
You say that like you don't know anyone close to you who's been raped. I hope it stays that way, I really, really do.
People can argue context all they want. Context changes for people based on their own experiences. Some people can throw it around casually because it doesn't mean anything to them but winning in a video game. Whenever I hear 'rape' I can't think of anything else but my best friend and what she went through. I will NEVER use 'rape' casually again. I understand other people will. I can't change that, but I certainly can't support it either.
|
incontrol addressed the 88 in his discussions on the show. He was not aware of its associations when he started using it. He is aware of it now, and he also speaks on a public platform, and so is in the process of removing it. He has removed it from his teamliquid id and says he is planning to do the same for his twitter
|
On May 30 2011 06:04 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:01 rycho wrote:
it really blows my mind that people are still offended by words in fucking 2011. i personally can't stand destiny's attitude and i would never watch his stream, but i respect him for having the correct point of view on this. why would anyone care what words anyone else uses? thats just really fucking stupid. on top of that, there are plenty of words/phrases that offend people that no one has even brought up, like:
- any cuss word
- retard: this is used constantly, i know my mother gets offended at this one
- down syndrome
- moron: this is a psychological term used in the eugenics movement
- "kill yourself": i hear this a lot
there are plenty more. personally i'm not going to sit around worrying about whether or not what i say is going to offend some idiot, and i don't think anyone else should either.
i'd also like to point out that there are much much more heinous acts than rape, for example:
murder - yet no one gives a shit if i say "i murdered him!" after i win a ladder game
genocide - this is actually a term in HoN, when an entire team dies it says "genocide" in big red letters across the screen
i fell bad for anyone who has been raped, of course. this doesn't mean i'm going to tiptoe around with what i say in the hopes that i don't offend anyone. personally i think anyone taking deep emotional offense to what some guy says on a sc2 stream is either a complete fucking dumbass or has emotional issues that they need to deal with and it isn't my problem. In your list: - Cuss words have become almost mainstream due to its considerable prominence in many shows and movies. The mass media is showing leniency and thus so does its society.
- Mentally deficient, I agree with "retard" being terrible, I haven't heard it used in very long however
- Haven't heard this either, may be true
- Moron is no longer a psychological term, brush up on your psych.
- What's wrong with "kill yourself"?
How do any of these have an oppressive nature to them? You can complain to HoN about "genocide", there's nothing we can do here.
i don't know what point you are trying to make. i was listing a small amount of the words that offend some people; i wasn't saying that they offend me or that they should offend you, nor was i "complaining" to anyone. i'm just making the point that if you want to offend no one when you talk (which is apparently the issue with saying 'raped, faggot nigger'), theres a lot more shit you have to worry about saying.
|
On May 30 2011 04:58 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:40 Hatsu wrote:On May 30 2011 03:31 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote:On May 30 2011 03:18 Hatsu wrote:On May 30 2011 03:11 [-]Ocelot[-] wrote:
I am going to assume most of the readers/posters here are not black, and are not a victim (or know a victim) of rape.
Perhaps I am not black nor I have been raped (though the closest person to me has been). But I cannot see in 3d, have been severely bullied at school, lost a parent to alcohol and suffer from severe migraines. Every time someone mentions 3d movies, bullying, alcohol, cancer and headaches I am reminded of such miseries and I feel horrible for a bit. So please stop talking about them, because a tiny minority of the population is like me and might suffer from it. Come on. That opening sentence was supposed to open your eyes about a particular weight these words historically carry. I hope you were able to read past it to see my whole post. let me re-quote Cusu's post, which I believe is pretty crucial. CusuOn the same token by using "nigger" you may not be at all describing or relating it to black people, but you mean it in a negative way and that word unfortunately DOES relate to black people. I am sorry to say that historically your words do not carry the same weight as the above - (nigger, fag, etc, etc). And I agree, not everyone can be spared from being offended. But nigger and faggot are two words that cannot be spoken against someone in a way that doesn't relate an entire population of people in an extremely negative way. We all know how history has shaped them. Quite simply, they have no place in a professional StarCraft cast. Destiny streams to his own audience, and I accept mature language/content age-gate every time I tune in so I know what I'm getting into, and I think he's a pretty damn funny guy. But imagine if a NASL/TSL/etc caster busted out with a "Holy shit that nigger just got raped!" or something using these inflammatory words to describe StarCraft (seperate context) when one player suffers a crushing loss to another... how would that reflect on the caster? The organization behind the tournament as a whole? Pretty poorly, in my opinion because they are allowing themselves to "ignore" and "forget" the history of this historically charged and weighted word. I did read your whole post, I quoted just your first line simply because it is a wrong assumption. My point is that everyone will come across something, during some cast, that somewhat offends/hurts him on a personal level. I am sure a lot of people can relate to this. People need to go past such things. Once you actually realize that words DO change meaning according to the context, you will also understand that whatever was said was not meant to offend you. Sure, you may still feel shitty about it for a moment, but to overcome that feeling is actually a crucial step in getting over whatever happened to you. Was it a wrong assumption? Maybe. I'd argue that if a poll was taken on the general demographic of these forums the majority would be white/males. But this is a bit off-topic, so I apologize. The point is I don't want to censor Destiny. He says and does what he wants, which is OK by me. I'm not pointing fingers, calling him racist (though his last post about minorities not wanting or willing to rise out of poverty screams ignorance-- I still don't believe him to be a racist). Words can change meaning according to context, but if you push aside the history of a word as powerful as this in exchange for an out-of-context witty remark, it's a massive disservice and 'shrug of the shoulders' to all the minorities (blacks, gays, etc) that still face these words in a discriminatory manner to this day.
The general demographic is white/male, but that's hardly the point - my fiance is neither a male nor white, yet she agrees on the issue, for example. On the other hand, Incontrol is definitely white/male and I disagree with him.
You mention the history of the word "nigger" and it is indeed a powerful one. Yet, in a remarkably similar example, one of the most commonly used and universally known greetings on Earth, "ciao", derives from sciavo, Venetian for slave.
My point is, words change their meaning over time. The same word can have a completely different meanings in two cultures. This is on top of the context, too.
|
I think its fun that I would say "I raped his base" but never the german equivalent - "ich hab seine basis vergewaltigt, oida*". And I do not use nigger or "neger", never did never would. People are offended, so why use it.
*"oida" has to be added, as I am austrian.
|
On May 30 2011 06:08 BeefAvenger wrote:
incontrol addressed the 88 in his discussions on the show. He was not aware of its associations when he started using it. He is aware of it now, and he also speaks on a public platform, and so is in the process of removing it. He has removed it from his teamliquid id and says he is planning to do the same for his twitter
Yes, I was in no way accusing him of anything... it is just a good example what one might think if no one knew, what you were just saying or in other words ... if no one knew the context, why incontrol chose the 88 in his name there.
|
I would describe Destiny's attitude as callous and possibly mean, but not racist. Some words have very potent meanings to some people. "Rape", etc. certainly qualify for this. On some level, using words the way Destiny does can "de-fang" them and make them less potent, which I would say is a good thing. But it doesn't change the fact that, for those people for whom these words do have a potent meaning, hearing them in any context can be a very negative experience.
Hence, I would describe his attitude as callous but certainly not racist.
|
On May 30 2011 05:54 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +You can argue that Incontrol's offends are "less offensive" (which I agree to btw), still it is highly hypocritical behaviour of him. Thats my point.
BTW: To be clear, I totally think that Incontrol was 100% right on today's show. But I just have the feeling that he just did that for himself to get some PR points in the community. I get that feeling to, given his long track record of pseudo-racism and "I don't give a fuck" attitude. I mean... he called in to a pizza place and used a fake indian accent when a black lady was on the other side of the phone. That's not immature racism??
Ii disagree, I mean iNcontrol was clearly being immature when he did that but I think that he also controls himself and knows where to draw the line and I think that he actually gets offended when someone else crosses the line the way destiny did, I mean related to his "I don't give a fuck" attitude I don't think that he would do it just for PR points I think he actually was angry about it.
|
On May 30 2011 06:01 rycho wrote:
it really blows my mind that people are still offended by words in fucking 2011. i personally can't stand destiny's attitude and i would never watch his stream, but i respect him for having the correct point of view on this. why would anyone care what words anyone else uses? thats just really fucking stupid. on top of that, there are plenty of words/phrases that offend people that no one has even brought up, like:
- any cuss word
- retard: this is used constantly, i know my mother gets offended at this one
- down syndrome
- moron: this is a psychological term used in the eugenics movement
- "kill yourself": i hear this a lot
there are plenty more. personally i'm not going to sit around worrying about whether or not what i say is going to offend some idiot, and i don't think anyone else should either.
i'd also like to point out that there are much much more heinous acts than rape, for example:
murder - yet no one gives a shit if i say "i murdered him!" after i win a ladder game
genocide - this is actually a term in HoN, when an entire team dies it says "genocide" in big red letters across the screen
i fell bad for anyone who has been raped, of course. this doesn't mean i'm going to tiptoe around with what i say in the hopes that i don't offend anyone. personally i think anyone taking deep emotional offense to what some guy says on a sc2 stream is either a complete fucking dumbass or has emotional issues that they need to deal with and it isn't my problem.
Words have power, Hitler took power with words, and when you stop caring about offending one group of people that's one step closer to not caring about that group at all.
|
On May 30 2011 06:21 Navillus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:01 rycho wrote:
it really blows my mind that people are still offended by words in fucking 2011. i personally can't stand destiny's attitude and i would never watch his stream, but i respect him for having the correct point of view on this. why would anyone care what words anyone else uses? thats just really fucking stupid. on top of that, there are plenty of words/phrases that offend people that no one has even brought up, like:
- any cuss word
- retard: this is used constantly, i know my mother gets offended at this one
- down syndrome
- moron: this is a psychological term used in the eugenics movement
- "kill yourself": i hear this a lot
there are plenty more. personally i'm not going to sit around worrying about whether or not what i say is going to offend some idiot, and i don't think anyone else should either.
i'd also like to point out that there are much much more heinous acts than rape, for example:
murder - yet no one gives a shit if i say "i murdered him!" after i win a ladder game
genocide - this is actually a term in HoN, when an entire team dies it says "genocide" in big red letters across the screen
i fell bad for anyone who has been raped, of course. this doesn't mean i'm going to tiptoe around with what i say in the hopes that i don't offend anyone. personally i think anyone taking deep emotional offense to what some guy says on a sc2 stream is either a complete fucking dumbass or has emotional issues that they need to deal with and it isn't my problem. Words have power, Hitler took power with words, and when you stop caring about offending one group of people that's one step closer to not caring about that group at all.
Let me get this straight. You're comparing Hitler's claim to power with a Starcraft 2 streamer yelling "FAGGOT" at opponents when he gets angry?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
