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After watching today's episode of WoC I have to say that I might check out Destiny's stream in the future, even tho I normally don't watch any streaming. But he seems like a cool person who has the same opinion on the whole "bad language" issue that I have.
Incontrol on the other hand... I don't see what's bad about saying "rape" in the gaming context. It's just a gamer term for utterly defeating someone, just like you would say "own/pwn" or any form of act of physical violence like "annihilate/destroy/kill/...". These words don't have their original meaning in the gaming context.
When I say "MC totally raped Goody today" and you literally think about MC fucking Goody in the ass against his will, you are just fucked up, cause really, you should just think about a Protoss army rolling over tanks and such.
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On May 30 2011 05:10 DizzyDrone wrote:
I think it's amusing how, while arguing with Destiny about his choice of words on his stream, so many people are insulting his viewerbase. In this page alone I, a 25 year old student from the Netherlands currently working on my final paper and enjoys watching Destiny's stream, have been called "a kid with not a lot going on in my life", who's either "racist or cool with racism".
I wasn't going to post this, because I think the thread is getting derailed a little, but I think this really needs to be said.
I am from the Netherlands. We have a soccer team called Ajax here who's supporters take pride in calling themselves "Jews", regardless of the fact that it was originally used as an insult towards them. When I hear the word "Nigger", I'm probably listening to some populair rap song, most likely performed by a black artist.
These words do not have the same meaning to me as they apparently do to a lot of American people. Although I don't use words like these myself because I'm able to express myself without using them, I think it's important to defend ANYONE's right to say or think ANYTHING they want, even if others feel offended by it.
Yes people should have the right to say anything they want. That is not the issue, the censorship argument is a red herring. No one is going to kick down Destiny's door because he uses the N word on his stream. Its not about what you can and cannot do, its about what you should and should not do. Yes he can use racial slurs on his stream but why should he, its ignorant and stupid, (but judging from his argument that everyone can get ahead if they work hard enough, so is he). You can say whatever you want, but if you choose to do things that offend others for no reason other than that they are convenient, it reflects on your character. If you say things online that you wouldn't have the balls to say in person than you are nothing but a coward and an e-thug. Maybe I am way off base here but I find it really hard to believe that if Destiny came up to near where I live and walked around Detroit he would be using very many racial slurs.
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On May 30 2011 05:17 Ragoo wrote:
After watching today's episode of WoC I have to say that I might check out Destiny's stream in the future, even tho I normally don't watch any streaming. But he seems like a cool person who has the same opinion on the whole "bad language" issue that I have.
Incontrol on the other hand... I don't see what's bad about saying "rape" in the gaming context. It's just a gamer term for utterly defeating someone, just like you would say "own/pwn" or any form of act of physical violence like "annihilate/destroy/kill/...". These words don't have their original meaning in the gaming context.
When I say "MC totally raped Goody today" and you literally think about MC fucking Goody in the ass against his will, you are just fucked up, cause really, you should just think about a Protoss army rolling over tanks and such.
I think theres a problem with the fact that rape in a game context and in a real life context have nearly the exact same meaning. Rape isn't just the physical act of having sex with someone against their will, it is total domination of the person, it's total control; turning a human being into an object you own. The definition of rape in real life is to own someone, to utterly defeat them. How can anyone argue that "it's a different context, different meaning" when the word means exactly the same thing in both contexts?
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Well, the N word is not actually, in my foreigner's opinion, directly referred to one's skin colour, it's more than that, A lot more.
It includes social position, wealth, clothing, language etc. This is almost exclusively an american phenomenon. (in Italy it does not imply racism, or discrimination or anything else, it just describes one's skin colour lol).
You don't call someone N**** for being soley black in the US, but maybe for belonging to a particular social "macroclass". Technically it's not racism then. It's discrimination. Social discrimination
A way which you americans should pursue is to start thinking really why you are about to offend someone, if you are. You are calling someone Ni**** why you don't like his skin colour, or his behavior? His language? His clothing? I'm under the impression that this kind of misconception happens 9 times out of ten.
Call stuff with their true name(ie your clothing taste is horribad), and move on.
Because truly, the sole fact of being black does not mean anything. ANYTHING.
As an example, calling someone out for being asian, or hispanic, does not carry the SAME WEIGHT as calling someone N*****. Why? Because it's embedded in your american history, it carries both historical and contemporary facts. And these are improperly used to offend some kind of social paradigm. It's a PURE coincidence that the offensive word "N****" is also descrivative of one's skin colour. It's not racism, it's discrimination, and that happens all the time.
This is why that word is a taboo in the usa. Just by coincidence. For example "fascism" is a taboo word in Italy because it describes a particular historical tragedy. But calling someone "fascist" does not exclusively mean that he wants the duce back, it can also means that he's very violent,zealous, and unliberal.
A moment that all of you should realize that the word N**** has just 2 different meanings, racial slur, related to the past history, and social slur, related to the current history.
A social slur is not nice, it's terribly BAD, but you can all agree that's not AS BAD AND TERRIBLE as a racial slur.
Spaghetti-eater is not racism, it's a prejudice, it's a discrimination, it's a social slur.
Other words such as Asian,hispanic etc are similar to N**** if you think about it for a second, they describe a physical condition. But lack any other further and deeper implication with history and behavior. So they are generally not offensive per se. They can be racism if you can draw a link pattern to society. That happens with the N word.
People percieve the N word automatically as racism, because history hurts, and not quite as a social slur.
Being called out for some superficial thing, and not the whole of one's personality, always hurts.
The more superficial the thing is, the more it actually gets under someone's skin. N**** is just the epitomization of this. There's nothing more superficial (and of immediate perception) as someone's colour tone.
At the end of the day, the word itself is not purely racist, it's actually a simple, improperly used expression, used to describe a whole conglomerate of prejudices and discriminations, that are proper of the USA society. By chance it describes one's skin colour, so it prejorates the overall situation. By chance it includes historical implications. So everything gets worse.
Besides, realize that our society is always evolving, and words always shape their meaning into synonims, and that happens because the context is always central in expression.
By just saying "angle" I could be referring to geometry or to fishing. The context is what defines everything. This is why asiatic languages (descendants from altaic) are extremely difficult to translate word by word, because they rely on context for the most part, instead of pure words.
By this principle, words are just words, the context is important.
The word rape is a clear example of that. Raped women are offended by that because they can draw a link between the word and a context ( the actual rape). The majority of people cannot, and will always assume the figurative ( as a synonym) meaning => to own somebody really hard, in gaming at least.
And even the women in question should understand that one's experience should not impede the use of a synonym, if they really claim to have gotten through the accident.
That's important, people that really "move on" in life are able to joke about it, to understand the importance of the context.
If I didn't move on, when my father died 10 years ago, I would be mad at anyone for Dying in videogames(and I was, at the beginning). It's just illogical.
And people who can't move on should worry about OTHER PROBLEMS than calling people out because they said something non appropriate on the internet. They should worry about their mental health, they should worry about bringing themselves together.
I agree, this discussion could've been sidestepped if we simply didn't use the word rape as a more sensational substitute for own. But as I said, society is always evolving, is always changing, and synonyms emerge every day, or even new words, that describe a particular feeling, a particular emotion, better than others. It's just the way it is, language per se is imperfect, thoughts are extremely hard to convey with words alone, context, physical language, tone convey everything else.
So, mere words are to be taken as a grain of salt, always. I tell you, words we use today could've been considered offensive 100 years ago, now they are not. Society shaped the word's meaning over time. This happens, get over it.
Take for example the word "slave", it described once a social status, it has historical implications, it was once discriminative. Today you can just say "you are your wife's slave" and be ok with it. The word has been shaped by the evolving society in a new meaning. If it wasn't the case, translating old manuscripts would be ezpz. Instead you have to immerse yourself in the society of the time, to grip the true meanings of words.
And pay attention, the only thing different between slave and N**** is that the first one does not describe BY CHANCE one's skin colour. (ignore the relation between the two words, was not the purpose of this example).
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Would have been awesome if Incontrol called in useing his Indian accent. Would have solidified his anti-racism arguments !
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I haven't watched Incontrols streams/commentatings etc a lot but when he joined the discussion today I had the strange feeling that he did that for himself rather than for the groups he claimed to defend.
Now that I have read here that he himself has beed quite the offender of some groups (stereotypical accents, personal offends towards Kelly and TotalBiscuit, picturing Europeans as humourless beings without any personality), I have lost all my respect for him. This kind of hypocritical and double-standard-esque behaviour is what I truly cannot stand.
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On May 30 2011 05:22 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 05:17 Ragoo wrote:
After watching today's episode of WoC I have to say that I might check out Destiny's stream in the future, even tho I normally don't watch any streaming. But he seems like a cool person who has the same opinion on the whole "bad language" issue that I have.
Incontrol on the other hand... I don't see what's bad about saying "rape" in the gaming context. It's just a gamer term for utterly defeating someone, just like you would say "own/pwn" or any form of act of physical violence like "annihilate/destroy/kill/...". These words don't have their original meaning in the gaming context.
When I say "MC totally raped Goody today" and you literally think about MC fucking Goody in the ass against his will, you are just fucked up, cause really, you should just think about a Protoss army rolling over tanks and such. I think theres a problem with the fact that rape in a game context and in a real life context have nearly the exact same meaning. Rape isn't just the physical act of having sex with someone against their will, it is total domination of the person, it's total control; turning a human being into an object you own. The definition of rape in real life is to own someone, to utterly defeat them. How can anyone argue that "it's a different context, different meaning" when the word means exactly the same thing in both contexts?
And how can people who propogate against rape, at the same time suggest that "Dominate" and "own" should be used in it's place? If they mean thesame thing, shouldn't they be equally bad?
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Someone said memory isn't genetic, and they're right, but it is cultural.
I kind of like Destiny's stream, I don't mind his immaturity, I think he's pretty funny ('Jimmy NOOOOOOOOOO!!!'). But he's accusing other people of naivety while displaying it himself.
Hey! Little black kids in the shitty neighbourhoods with broken families! You don't need to get into drugs or anything! If you all just knuckle down and work real hard at school you can all go to university and get degrees and all be doctors and drive expensive Audis! And then there won't be any more poor people!
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.
Basically he's correct that pretty much any individual can drag themselves out of poverty. But whole groups? It's a bad argument.
On the other hand I really don't think Destiny is racist and this whole shitstorm is too much.
I look forward to watching the show!
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On May 30 2011 05:23 PlosionCornu wrote:
Well, the N word is not actually, in my foreigner's opinion, directly referred to one's skin colour, it's more than that, A lot more.
It includes social position, wealth, clothing, language etc. This is almost exclusively an american phenomenon. (in Italy it does not imply racism, or discrimination or anything else, it just describes one's skin colour lol).
You don't call someone N**** for being soley black in the US, but maybe for belonging to a particular social "macroclass". Technically it's not racism then. It's discrimination. Social discrimination
A way which you americans should pursue is to start thinking really why you are about to offend someone, if you are. You are calling someone Ni**** why you don't like his skin colour, or his behavior? His language? His clothing? I'm under the impression that this kind of misconception happens 9 times out of ten.
You can talk about language evolving all you want but what you are describing here is not an evolution of language, its historical revionism. The N word refers to someones skin color. There is a small subset of the white population at large who is attempting to change that meaning to some sort of cultural insult. The issue with that is the culture that they are refering to is black urban culture. Its not just about a social class, its about black culture. When someone refers to another person with the N word and the other person is any color but black they are equating them with black culture, its still a racial slur and its still insulting. Furthermore no evolution of language can occur when a majority of the population still uses the term in its original context. Think racism is dead? Go into any bar with a large group of people containing no people of color and then see how long it takes before someone makes a racial joke. I will put 100 dollars that at least one person in that bar will make a racial joke at some point. Racism isn't dead in the U.S., and I would guess that just about every white American person reading this thread has at least 1 random friend or family member who is still racist. When thats dead, when you cant find anyone making racial jokes when "those people" aren't around, then you can talk about an evolution of language. Until then children on the internet should grow up.
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On May 30 2011 05:28 Titorelli wrote:
I haven't watched Incontrols streams/commentatings etc a lot but when he joined the discussion today I had the strange feeling that he did that for himself rather than for the groups he claimed to defend.
Now that I have read here that he himself has beed quite the offender of some groups (stereotypical accents, personal offends towards Kelly and TotalBiscuit, picturing Europeans as humourless beings without any personality), I have lost all my respect for him. This kind of hypocritical and double-standard-esque behaviour is what I truly cannot stand.
you can find him at twitter.com/88incontrol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#As_a_Neo-Nazi_symbol
but apart from the individuals who were on WoC, every side has its points, no one can deny that. what I find much more disturbing is that some will deny djWheat and his shows, because he had destiny on. Would you also stop watching a news show or debate just because there was a controversal guest invited?
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On May 30 2011 05:28 Titorelli wrote:
I haven't watched Incontrols streams/commentatings etc a lot but when he joined the discussion today I had the strange feeling that he did that for himself rather than for the groups he claimed to defend.
Now that I have read here that he himself has beed quite the offender of some groups (stereotypical accents, personal offends towards Kelly and TotalBiscuit, picturing Europeans as humourless beings without any personality), I have lost all my respect for him. This kind of hypocritical and double-standard-esque behaviour is what I truly cannot stand.
Funny, uninformed and close minded posts like your own is what I truly cannot stand.
There's a huge difference between making stereotypical remarks about recent events (Kellys accent, TB's casting, Europeans who go "it's ok" when winning a major tournament) and blatantly throwing around offensive words with no other excuse than "because i can"/"no one shouldbe offended anyway"..
Points to a limited vocabulary if nothing else.
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On May 30 2011 05:07 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:43 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
You know who else doesn't understand what it means to be enslaved, beaten, segrated, or oppressed throughout American history? ANY BLACK PERSON UNDER 50 YEARS OF AGE.
This is really ignorant. As a white person, you have no idea how historical memory works. You think that Jews today don't understand the devastation of the Holocaust? Or that Koreans don't understand the humiliation that came with Japanese colonization? Historical memory gets transmitted from generation to generation. It's a critical part of cultural identity. Both my granddads fought the germans and were made war prisoners in World War 2. It's part of "my history" but I do NOT know what it is to be in a german camp. Don't call people ignorant just because they don't share your views.
And yet WW2 informs and affects us culturally in a huge way.
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Maybe the 88 in front of in control refers to hugs and kisses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_Amateur_Radio
Or maybe it was a clan from when he first starting playing sc2... There are many arguments you could make for Incontrol being hypocritical, but the 88 in his name is not one of them.
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On May 30 2011 05:41 Endbringer wrote:Maybe the 88 in front of in control refers to hugs and kisses? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_Amateur_RadioOr maybe it was a clan from when he first starting playing sc2... There are many arguments you could make for Incontrol being hypocritical, but the 88 in his name is not one of them.
true, as it stands, it could be seen otherwise, because it's out of context, just like using certain curse words.
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On May 30 2011 04:54 Squalish wrote:
good to know the fanbase that will stick with steven bonnell are racist or cool with racism. maybe he will even make some new fans because of this
I have red hair. Since I was a child people have made fun of me because we, people with red hair, stink. If Destiny ever makes a joke about carrot top, I'll stop watching his stream because it means he wants all of us red haired people killed. Plus I suspect him or someone from his family actually invented red hair so he could make fun of us. He actually is responsible for everything that went wrong during my youth. Even his mutas look reddish. Someone stop him.
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On May 30 2011 05:38 Thrill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 05:28 Titorelli wrote:
I haven't watched Incontrols streams/commentatings etc a lot but when he joined the discussion today I had the strange feeling that he did that for himself rather than for the groups he claimed to defend.
Now that I have read here that he himself has beed quite the offender of some groups (stereotypical accents, personal offends towards Kelly and TotalBiscuit, picturing Europeans as humourless beings without any personality), I have lost all my respect for him. This kind of hypocritical and double-standard-esque behaviour is what I truly cannot stand. Funny, uninformed and close minded posts like your own is what I truly cannot stand. There's a huge difference between making stereotypical remarks about recent events (Kellys accent, TB's casting, Europeans who go "it's ok" when winning a major tournament) and blatantly throwing around offensive words with no other excuse than "because i can"/"no one shouldbe offended anyway".. Points to a limited vocabulary if nothing else.
As I said, my information comes from the post I have read here in this threat. So I WAS uninformed and I AM informed now. It's not that difficult to get, now is it?
You can argue that Incontrol's offends are "less offensive" (which I agree to btw), still it is highly hypocritical behaviour of him. Thats my point.
BTW: To be clear, I totally think that Incontrol was 100% right on today's show. But I just have the feeling that he just did that for himself to get some PR points in the community.
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On May 30 2011 05:42 Rmdy wrote:true, as it stands, it could be seen otherwise, because it's out of context, just like using certain curse words.
A slur is not a normal curse word. "Fuck" is a curse word. The N word is an insult towards an entire race of people. Its a slur because you are equating a negative situation or person with a black person and not in a positive manner. You are saying the other is "black" and that being black is a bad thing. The context doesn't matter, thats the meaning of what you are saying. Apple meet Orange.
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Sigh, why can't Destiny take one course of basic Sociology.
Just one, that's all I'm asking D:
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On May 30 2011 05:47 Endbringer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 05:42 Rmdy wrote:On May 30 2011 05:41 Endbringer wrote:Maybe the 88 in front of in control refers to hugs and kisses? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_Amateur_RadioOr maybe it was a clan from when he first starting playing sc2... There are many arguments you could make for Incontrol being hypocritical, but the 88 in his name is not one of them. true, as it stands, it could be seen otherwise, because it's out of context, just like using certain curse words. A slur is not a normal curse word. "Fuck" is a curse word. The N word is an insult towards an entire race of people. Its a slur because you are equating a negative situation or person with a black person and not in a positive manner. You are saying the other is "black" and that being black is a bad thing. The context doesn't matter, thats the meaning of what you are saying. Apple meet Orange.
Whatever the reason for incontrols name is, it could be anything. so the context is absolutely the most important thing. A jew might be offended by that, but I wouldn't.
Using words and altering their meaning to use them as curse words, while those words are usually directed towards certain groups, is not the same, but it's not completely different.
Some might care about that name, some won't.
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On May 30 2011 05:47 Endbringer wrote:
A slur is not a normal curse word. "Fuck" is a curse word. The N word is an insult towards an entire race of people. Its a slur because you are equating a negative situation or person with a black person and not in a positive manner. You are saying the other is "black" and that being black is a bad thing. The context doesn't matter, thats the meaning of what you are saying. Apple meet Orange.
In your worldview it's not. Don't try to assume everyone agrees with it. If everyone did then we wouldn't be having this wonderful discussion in the first place.
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EPT
