EPTBeta Balance Update #14 - Page 14
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything. No, that would be unfair.The medivacs are likely to have no energy after a fight. Protoss can recall, and zerg can retreat through nydus... Oh wait, they can't. I think the nitro boost should be an upgrade you would have to research in techlab/fusion core. That would make the medivac usefull in lategame harass, for countering like when the zerg contains with swarm hosts, or at leat delay the rush and prevent a BBQ. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On February 14 2013 09:26 nomyx wrote: Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels sorry but this is wrong. Gateway -- baracks Cyber core - factory stargate, robotics fac. - armory + Starport = hellbats Another very important thing is that you can build hellions before you have an armory. You can start producing them much much earlier. If you want to compare hellbat tech to colossus and carriers, then think about how fun it would be if you could instantly transform 3 stalkers into a colossus once you have a robotics factory. - thats the tech level your talking about aside from that. These are 2 completely different races-. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:14 Saumure wrote: No, that would be unfair.The medivacs are likely to have no energy after a fight. Protoss can recall, and zerg can retreat through nydus... Oh wait, they can't. I think the nitro boost should be an upgrade you would have to research in techlab/fusion core. That would make the medivac usefull in lategame harass, for countering like when the zerg contains with swarm hosts, or at leat delay the rush and prevent a BBQ. That's the point. I think you are not supposed to have boost right after fight. Medivacs are nearly impossible to catch if you have no air units. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:27 ALPINA wrote: That's the point. I think you are not supposed to have boost right after fight. Medivacs are nearly impossible to catch if you have no air units. That is what I was implying, but is just as crazy as recall. On the other hand, I would not see the point of boost if it were not for saving units / medivacs. Maybe the hellbat is the problem and not the boost. What is the purpose of this unit? Harass? Terran already has the helion and the banshee for that (since the reaper is more like a scouting unit at this point). Clearly, the Hellbat should counter something while doing AOE. As it can also be healed, I assume that Bli²²ard wants the hellbat in frontline supporting a bioball vs swarm hosts or broodlords. So there is pretty much no point of beeing able to have this unit that early in the game. | ||
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Factus
Brazil4 Posts
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything. That could work out nicely if Caduceus Reactor was changed to be 50+ maximum energy instead of +25 starting energy. It's not the uncommon for Medivacs to have more than 50% of their energy if the game is passive, sometimes they have 100%. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything. I think it would be significantly better form a design perspective to make Medivac thrusters an upgrade at the Tech Lab so Terrans actually have a reason to build a Tech Lab and research Medivac thrusters instead of just building a Reactor for double Medivac production as it is. Medivac thrusters is a cool and skillfull ability, but the fact that Terran units are just receiving very significant buffs to their units for free really needs to stop, just handing out free Medivac thrusters, Siege Tech and Hellbats at the Armory like candy is overpowering and dumbing down the race as a whole. I mean why should Zerg receive necessary buffs to Hydralisks in the form of an upgrade in order to make them useful while Terrans are receiving unecessary buffs to already effective units for free? All of these hand outs to Terrans have really imbalanced TvZ in the early game, the match up is no where near as fun in HOTS up to the 10 minute mark as it use to be. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On February 14 2013 21:39 lost_artz wrote: That could work out nicely if Caduceus Reactor was changed to be 50+ maximum energy instead of +25 starting energy. It's not the uncommon for Medivacs to have more than 50% of their energy if the game is passive, sometimes they have 100%. It would also let you easily burn energy so your drop is not stopped/weakened by feedback when dropping against protoss. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
But they forget to implement the same energy mechanic to the oracle that the banshees has. TURN OFF THE SKILL WHEN OOM. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
You have a hellion, it gets an upgrade to change its flame to blue flame and gets a damage bonus. Then you change this same hellion into a hellbat and it loses its blue flame and damage bonus. Or you have a hellion and you put four of them in a medivac. Then in the course of fighting you end up changing them to hellbat mode and now only two of them can fit in a medivac. And then you can heal them because now they're biological. Two years into the game we are going to look at the hellbat and we are going to wonder about all these strange, arbitrary limits and the answer would be: "well, in beta patch #13 hellbat drops were too strong" - even if at this point the hellbat probably has different stats, different uses etc. There is nothing unique about hellbats that has it conceptually make sense for only two to fit in a medivac. It's largely the same unit as a hellion still. They are a 100m 2s generic combat unit, why is this unit singled out to take up more cargo out of all the other combat units? I guess the main problem is the synergy between hellbats and medivacs with speed boosts, but that doesn't only go for hellbats. Next, widow mines with 1s burrow time are going to be used to clear out mineral lines, and maybe then Blizzard will decide to only allow two widow mines in a medivac. And yes, widow mines with 1s burrow come later in the game, so it might be okay, but the same logic would hold for turning the medivac speed boost into an upgrade. Secondly, the hellbat is too strong in general, one of the issues is that you can just drop them and forget about them, because they are cost efficient vs so many armies, and the splash kills workers in the meantime. How about changing the (silly) biological tag instead? Or nerfing the stats of the hellbat? And maybe another problem is that you can constantly speed boost your medivac at no cost. Fly to one base, by the time any army gets there, pick up and zoom to the next base, then keep repeating this because the cooldown is so short. | ||
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whitebear
Canada3 Posts
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
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blamekilly
466 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On February 14 2013 22:13 whitebear wrote: another terran nerf.... but a needed one =P | ||
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blamekilly
466 Posts
On February 14 2013 08:54 Integra wrote: I still remember the stream of EGDemuslim where he saw the hellbat drop miles away, put down bunkers and all kinds of shit to stop the drop, the drop happened and Demuslim stil lost more than the other Terran lol. because he was going 1 rack expand every game with extra barrack after. you need 2 widow mine or a bunker in the mineral line. play the damn meta game. you cant expect to beat hellbat drops with a couple marines and marauders and not lose any workers. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On February 14 2013 22:13 whitebear wrote: another terran nerf.... and far more will hopefully come | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
Edit: actually took the time to read through everyone's comments while my stomach tries to kill me. Is everyone here talking based on pure theory? If you've played the beta, the problem is not "oh, it's too strong because BH's can get healed" or "Oh, you're just not reacting to it properly, no excuse to not be prepared." For ZvT at least, the problem is that even if you know it's coming, you can't stop it, unless you plan to have a build based around having 7 queens/spores at each mineral line. The medivac boost means that the medivac can drop the BH's before it goes down to standard base defenses (1, maybe 2 spores and a queen), and even if the medivac dies, the BH's kill the drones in 2 shots, which the speed boost can guarantee you get because of how far you can opt to spread them apart. And Zerg have no unit to deal with it as early as they can come. Queens/lings? Nope. Banes? Nope, too much BH hp, and they'll either be spread out enough that you don't get the splash or they'll bunch up and kill them with group fire. Roaches? Not even then, BH's deal so much damage to them it doesn't even matter, you're losing gas units to a unit that only costs minerals (imagine if a marine easily won a 1 on 1 vs a stalker, it feels like that), and the range on the roach isn't really that much greater than the Bh arc, so kiting isn't really a thing you can count on. The only other build I can think to try is (obviously after scouting this build) is to go lair first and rush hydras with range, but something tells me that hydras vs a unit that does extras vs light units may not pan out well, but it's all I can think of. Maybe roaches can kill off just 2, definitely gonna give blizzard that, but that'll be small comfort to kill 200 mins worth of resources in a trade for a whole mineral line and probably a roach or two as well | ||
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MythZero
Korea (South)102 Posts
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lenjurik
49 Posts
I really think this strat was only an issue in TvT, anyway. Seems to me a lot of the people complaining about drops in TvZ or TvP are struggling with drops in general, not hellbat drops. 8 marines kill workers fast, too. Nothing new there. Admittedly, I am a terran player. I think a better tweak balance-wise to test would have been to delay the hellbat drop slightly by means of making the transformation an upgrade again. | ||
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