This afternoon, we will be making the balance change listed below. This will not require that we bring down the beta service. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Terran
Hellbat -The cargo space required to transport a Hellbat has been increased from 2 to 4.
Think of it like this - a thor and an ultra both fill 8 slots in an overlord/a medivac, but are only 6 supply. Same with a tank - medivac can hold 2 tanks, even though tanks are only 3 supply.
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
On February 14 2013 08:41 ZerGGling wrote: but u still can transport 4 hellions and morph them into hellbats?
Yes. So you have a lot more time to react.
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
Should pretty much solve the problem, IMO. 2 hellbats is enough to kill a couple probes possibly and at least deny mining time. That or you make a bigger commitment with 2 medivacs. Either way, hopefully this helps alleviate TvT being hellbat drop only XD
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
You should have watched DRG's stream right now, he defended the drops perfectly and you still end up way behind because of the investment. Also the mining time lost is really high even if you don't lose a single drone.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
Don't see why you're mad, it even fucked up TvT because of it's immense strength.
It's quite amusing that they, and most of you it seems, think that the problem with hellbats is the fact that they can be dropped 4 at a time. The problem is that the hellbats themselves are too powerful; shit changes like these hurt the multitasking options of the terran and still leave the unit being too powerful, which will lead to more all ins.
Wow I was just thinking this last night after watching the MVP HOTS game. People were quite vocal about how overpowered Hellbat drops seemed to be.. and I thought "well if their purpose was to be a more sturdy element of the mech army, maybe just make them harder to drop..." but I didnt think they would modify the drop capacity as it seemed universal with" population value" but it also made the most sense.
i like it. i didnt face hellbat drops yet (beta key since 2 days! yeah!) but the ones i saw on streams seemed like - well if it works 2 hellbats do unsignificantly less damage to drones when they land on them. Still a huge blow if you don't react fast enough and even if you react, still mining time lost. Good reaction blizzard - keep it going!
I still remember the stream of EGDemuslim where he saw the hellbat drop miles away, put down bunkers and all kinds of shit to stop the drop, the drop happened and Demuslim stil lost more than the other Terran lol.
David Kim to the community: I'm going to make hellbats take 4 slots in the medivac, what do you think ? Community : That won't fix much. David Kim does it anyways. It is kinda funny if you ask me. The problem is not that you can drop them 4 at a time. The problem is that they do too much dmg and can survive too much of a beating in the same time.
On February 14 2013 08:48 knOxStarcraft wrote: It's quite amusing that they, and most of you it seems, think that the problem with hellbats is the fact that they can be dropped 4 at a time. The problem is that the hellbats themselves are too powerful; shit changes like these hurt the multitasking options of the terran and still leave the unit being too powerful, which will lead to more all ins.
I remember when marauders were "too powerful." People laughed that Terrans ONLY had to make them to win. 2 years later and they're just part of the army. Moral of the story, nerf the tactic, not the unit.
Well this was expected and kinda the best thing to do now as the beta is closing in a couple of weeks. I don't think we'll be seeing any beta patches after this. Too bad they didn't fix the carrier micro. Still the real tweaks will be coming in post release patches ofc.
On February 14 2013 08:57 Pr0wler wrote: David Kim to the community: I'm going to make hellbats take 4 slots in the medivac, what do you think ? Community : That won't fix much. David Kim does it anyways. It is kinda funny if you ask me.
Community was largely supportive of the change. The people that hated the change wanted the unit removed from the game, more or less.
I don't see how this changes much. If I was a smart terran, I would just put 1 hellbat and 2 hellions in the dropship, and then have the huge aoe and dps of the hellbat with the chasing power of the hellion. And if things get sticky I'd just transform the hellions to hellbats and it's the same problem all over again. Or I could move 2 hellions close to or into the enemy base and then transform them into hellbats while the other two hellbats are in the medivac being dropped in the mineral line. Man the the potential for abuse with hellbats is just off the charts lol. I guess what I listed takes a lot of skill, but it's shows how broken the potential of early hellbats are.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
On February 14 2013 08:38 awesomoecalypse wrote: There was already precedent in SC2 for a unit taking up more cargo space than supply--Colossi take up an entire warp prism but just 6 supply.
Even better example is banelings. Half a supply, take up two space. Zerglings take up one space.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Bad comparison. Hydras and mutas could kill mines easy peasy. Vultures also didn't have AOE damage either.
On February 14 2013 08:57 Pr0wler wrote: David Kim to the community: I'm going to make hellbats take 4 slots in the medivac, what do you think ? Community : That won't fix much. David Kim does it anyways. It is kinda funny if you ask me. The problem is not that you can drop them 4 at a time. The problem is that they do too much dmg and can survive too much of a beating in the same time.
Could you imagine that the community isn't all-knowing and actually biased as shit?
Remember how marauders were considered the most OP unit in the game? They were never actually nerfed yet they turned out okay. Amazing how that works.
On February 14 2013 08:33 GGzerG wrote: I don't understand so, your supply will go up and down whenever hellions change from hellions to hellbats?
Think of it this way:
1 zergling is 0.5 supply, but you can only fit 8 into an overlord. While typically you only see 8 supply available in an overlord, it's not the sole reason
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Bad comparison. Hydras and mutas could kill mines easy peasy. Vultures also didn't have AOE damage either.
I forgot how powerful hellbats are against units that are faster and can fly. Thanks for reminding me.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
On February 14 2013 09:04 Nazeron wrote: my first thought is that now terrans will make 2 medivacs and drop with 4 hellbats with 2 medivac support which will be even worse to deal with TT
Better go for 1 hellbat + 2 hellions in the same medivac.
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
You also have to consider during the transforming time, any shots on the hellions are worth more damage and they can't be healed. So by the time they are done transforming, they'll either be much weaker or some will be dead.
And if they try to do it with 2 medivacs to not have to transform, that's a 42 second delay on the timing. Either way, it's a subtle nerf that won't screw up every hellbat scenario.
good they're balancing hellbats but this change is just strange. it lacks internal logic, like the +damage to bio on spores and proposed +damage to shields on widow mines. I don't think, in general, it's a good way to balance the game.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Henk wrote: Think of it like this - a thor and an ultra both fill 8 slots in an overlord/a medivac, but are only 6 supply. Same with a tank - medivac can hold 2 tanks, even though tanks are only 3 supply.
On February 14 2013 09:04 Nazeron wrote: my first thought is that now terrans will make 2 medivacs and drop with 4 hellbats with 2 medivac support which will be even worse to deal with TT
I do that already. 2 front attack with 2 hellbat by medivac. 2 is enought to ravage a mineral line anyway! :D
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
That got nerfed fast, but if you didn't have anything to defend against some Oracles your mineral line gets still killed in seconds. Guess this time they don't want Terran imba whine after release :D
On February 14 2013 09:08 Lobotomist wrote: good they're balancing hellbats but this change is just strange. it lacks internal logic, like the +damage to bio on does and proposed +damage to shields on widow mines. I don't think, in general, it's a good way to balance the game.
Lately, many of Blizzard's choices seem illogical to me. This unit is healed by Medivacs lol. Come on you silly Hellion, you're not a Firebat...
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
lol ? is only 1 minor change . whats your problem i dont udnerstand . it was impossible to defend and i tell you i watch minimap once every second . with perfect position stalker to defense the new SPEED BOOST made it impossible to not lose atlast 3-6 workers with instant drop . why you so mad btw ? was this the only tactic that you used and now you are ruines or what ?
Hopefully terran can keep the hellbats as they are. They need an overpowered unit for new players (think banelings vs marines in a bronze match) that can help get more people to play terran
On February 14 2013 09:08 Lobotomist wrote: good they're balancing hellbats but this change is just strange. it lacks internal logic, like the +damage to bio on does and proposed +damage to shields on widow mines. I don't think, in general, it's a good way to balance the game.
Lately, many of Blizzard's choices seem illogical to me. This unit is healed by Medivacs lol. Come on you silly Hellion, you're not a Firebat...
The trouble with the current balancing philosophy is that they want to make Mech more viable in TvP. Yet, the recent buffs to hellbats (can be healed, damage buff vs. all) don't really make Mech more viable, but just make for a very simplistic (and silly looking) A-move unit.
I still stand that the necessary changes to Terran mech to make the game more fun is to nerf the Hellbat so it only does +dmg vs light, and to buff the tank's survivability and damage a little bit. Also removing the healing.
The current cargo space nerf is a good start, but it doesn't change the fact that Hellbats are boring units if they can pretty much fair decently against most ground units in terms of DPS.
this helps alot as the helions being morphed can be targeted down with lings or roachs and cannot be healed till transformation is complete. this should at the very least slow down helbat drops and make them alot less dominate early.
I started playing hots yesterday and have only used hellbat drops sparingly in anticipation of the nerf. It was so obvious it was coming and from watching stream it ruined TvT most of all so im more than happy about this change.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels
On February 14 2013 08:38 awesomoecalypse wrote: There was already precedent in SC2 for a unit taking up more cargo space than supply--Colossi take up an entire warp prism but just 6 supply.
As does a thor, seige tanks take up 4 spaces and cost only 3 supply. There is plenty of precedent.
I have more of an issue with the ability to boost in and essentially bypass static defense.
My solution would be that you can't unload while a medivac is speed boosted.
Boost should be used to retreat after a drop in my opinion or to just get across big maps faster. But the ability to make static defense useless or make you have to build to much of it is more an issue in my opinion.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels
TvT became hellbat drop fest. It was boring to watch and seemingly impossible to stop without taking too heavy eco-damage instead (innovation vs I think fantasy). So it was far from just a tvx problem, and the core issue remained in the mirror matchup as well.
Either do what has been done, or delay the speedboost on medivac by whatever means were the solutions in my opinion.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels
Only 2 hellbats per medivac will make a huge difference. If the same medivac/hellbat rush timings are used, potential damage to your mineral line is now halved.
Since potential damage is now cut in half - this will do no more than just apply pressure, even in situations where there is no static defense of any kind. People are also ignoring the tech requirements to even perform said rush. The most frustrating thing about this, is the mindset that a tier 2 unit is doing too much damage to a mineral line, completely ignoring the requirements of the starport and an armory to make this attack possible.
This isn't a tier 2 unit anymore. This is at minimal a tier 2.5 unit which should rightfully be dangerous and considered a valid threat to your econ.
At least not every game will be hellbat drop opening now. It was too powerful compared to other options (mine drops, octo marine drop, hellion drop, .. cloaked banshee even).
On February 14 2013 09:26 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Good effort but I think the Hellbat still needs a bit of a nerfing.
Outside of drop harass they're just too good for only 100 minerals. Their dps needs to be weakened imo.
They require an armory to even exist(or transform into). That's constantly the theme that people are ignoring. It's not a unit that's immediately available upon introduction of the factory.
Hellbats are such an odd unit now. Hellions transform into hellbats and magically turn biological and now magically take up more room in medivacs too. I wish they'd find less awkward ways to make this unit work.
Looks like they're trying to play with the mobility trade off between hellions and hell bats without touching the health/damage trade-off. It's a very scientific way to do things. Though everyone will agree the health/damage needs to be adjusted.
I think they want to keep hellbats OP on release (Along with other new units). I feel like it's at least a marketing consideration to guarantee that all the new units will be used in tournaments/streams to encourage people to buy the expansion. They want to force a meta-game shift. If all the new units were mediocre then everyone would more or less just stick with the WoL metagame upon release (We've seen this in the MLG qualifiers).
On February 14 2013 08:41 ZerGGling wrote: but u still can transport 4 hellions and morph them into hellbats?
yes, correct. However -
1) drop them into a secluded corner 2) transform into hellbat mode 3) WALK to the mineral line
If you weren't already busted by in steps 1 and 2, step 3 is not going to result in any meaningful damage. He'll yank his drones away the moment he spots you lumbering towards the mineral line - unless you quickly load up 2 hellbats back into the medivac, and speed boost into the heart of the mineral line.
Then use the remaining other hellbats walking on foot to intercept possible escape routes.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels
Well, from my point of view, hellbats are still terrible, the fact u are able to drop them on roaches, kill spines, kill queens easily, annihalate zerglings and i could go on, it's just imba as shit (and im a terran). Also oracle seem stupid aswell, now the job phoenix had is gone for the most part cause oracle does it faster and can also kill queens faster and has a late game useful spell. Not to mention void rays, from one point of view i like the new abilities with timers, but balance the shit up...terran problem vs protoss was that most units had energy and feedback was a bitch for them, but the new void rays, not even funny.
Also 4 gate is stronger due to mothership core high ground vision, blink is stronger cause u dont need robo (kind of, dark shrine cheap), immortal sentry push vs zerg is stronger due to mothership core since u can attack at any point and just go yolo recall back if zerg makes too many units, costing u nothing, zerg a lot of economy.
All in all, hots is fun, but i hope they speed up the balance process, many things are far from good. In WoL at least players were still all bad, now everyone is much better and metagame will be much more advanced.
On February 14 2013 09:00 KamikazeDurrrp wrote: I don't see how this changes much. If I was a smart terran, I would just put 1 hellbat and 2 hellions in the dropship, and then have the huge aoe and dps of the hellbat with the chasing power of the hellion. And if things get sticky I'd just transform the hellions to hellbats and it's the same problem all over again. Or I could move 2 hellions close to or into the enemy base and then transform them into hellbats while the other two hellbats are in the medivac being dropped in the mineral line. Man the the potential for abuse with hellbats is just off the charts lol. I guess what I listed takes a lot of skill, but it's shows how broken the potential of early hellbats are.
It isn't as simple as you make it out to be. You conjecture that you can easily spare the APM to do all this, *and* macro in your base while this is all happening.
One hellbat alone in the mineral line isn't going to do the damage you think it would. DPS of the hellions running around trying to intercept drones is not a lot - it takes how many shots from regular hellions to roast drones? Even assuming that you're targetting only the drones weakened from the hellbat attack and not the drones simply doing a retreat.
meanwhile that hellbat is lumbering around not able to really do anything, unless you can *also*, in between microing the 2 hellions, quickly load the hellbat into the dropship, hit Boost, and drop him where you think those running drones are headed.
You say you "guess" this takes a lot of skill. Well no need to guess. It's very APM expensive to pull all this off, AND keep up building supply depots, more production facilities and don't forget to expand behind this attack.
On February 14 2013 09:38 Beakyboo wrote: Hellbats are such an odd unit now. Hellions transform into hellbats and magically turn biological and now magically take up more room in medivacs too. I wish they'd find less awkward ways to make this unit work.
Well, lore wise you can always say that hellions, while rearranging into hellbats, stretch themselves and occupy a bigger volume, they are less compact, hence 4 cargo space.
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage.
Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
To all the people saying this isn't enough, how do you nerf something without totally obliterating it from the game? Think about it. 2 hellbats fully-formed or 4 that will take a few seconds to transform in to hellbats. Then! there's also no way to pick up all 4 if they're in danger, terran can only pick up 2. So there's a loss.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels
Hive comes after Lair and Infestation pit.
Fleet Bacon after Cyber Core and Star Gate
Dark Shrne after Cyber core and Twilight council
Its pretty much the same
Indeed, Rax->Factory->Starport->Armory
Starport and Armory can be built in parallel, All the other examples have a sequential dependence.
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage.
Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
Yeah, it seems like the perfect call TBH. You can still get the 4 into the base in hellion form but the nerf is in the transofmration. Then terran will always lose at least 2 hellbats if he needs immediate evac.
To all the people saying they could think of better ideas, Hellbats still need to be nerfed, etc.
No offense but you guys don't understand much about the balance in the game. Just watch how this works out. I can guarantee a large part of the issue will be fixed, while still leaving hellbat/medivac both viable units, and their combined synergy micro as a viable strat, just not "random" to defend against.
Watch the next round of Pro games and the results in comparison. That will speak volumes.
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage.
Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
Workers actually move 25% faster than Hellbats. (2.8125 vs 2.25)
On February 14 2013 08:33 GGzerG wrote: I don't understand so, your supply will go up and down whenever hellions change from hellions to hellbats?
No. It means you can only load 2 Hellbats in a Medivac instead of 4. That way Hellbat drops will not bbq workers that fast.
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
tho you can still load 4 hellions then transform them when dropped, tho you can buy time to move your workers out before they are fully transformed. And Hellbats walk pretty slow, so workers should be in a safe distance by then.
On February 14 2013 09:54 Spyridon wrote: To all the people saying they could think of better ideas, Hellbats still need to be nerfed, etc.
No offense but you guys don't understand much about the balance in the game. Just watch how this works out. I can guarantee a large part of the issue will be fixed, while still leaving hellbat/medivac both viable units, and their combined synergy micro as a viable strat, just not "random" to defend against.
Watch the next round of Pro games and the results in comparison. That will speak volumes.
Yes. Mm-hm. I like what you did there. Yes, nice. Exactly!!!!
I feel like when people complaing about IMBA, they want certain tactics totally wiped out of the game. This'll still be effective because of (oh my god, I feel like I broken record)
1) if yo uwant to get 4 hellbats in, you have to bring them in has hellions and transform.
2) you will always lose 2 hellbats if terran needs immediate evac.
On February 14 2013 09:25 DoNuTs84 wrote: This change makes no difference. It STILL only takes 2 hits to kill workers. Its the unit itself that needs to be nerfed...alot
then why should the unit even exist then? in your world there would only be standard hellions
On February 14 2013 09:57 Pucca wrote: How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
Because tranforming them to hellbats takes time, and means they won't be instantly hitting workers. Hellbats are also slower than workers (and most units), so unless dropped right on top of them, they should be unable to hit stuff that moves.
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
tho you can still load 4 hellions then transform them when dropped, tho you can buy time to move your workers out before they are fully transformed. And Hellbats walk pretty slow, so workers should be in a safe distance by then.
Precisely, and once the workers have moved away - you've done zero damage and put yourself behind.
On February 14 2013 09:57 Pucca wrote: How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
You can always spot the people who don't even play the game and decide it's a good idea to join discussions about balance... I seriously don't understand why people make comments like this showing they don't play the game, because if they did they would know the transform time.
It takes 4 seconds to switch from hellion form to hellbat. This means if they try dropping right on your workers you have 4 seconds to escape or damage them.
The bigger problem was once they are in hellbat form, how they could be picked up and microed to alleviate their disadvantage (slow run speed).
The synergy between Medivacs and Hellbats is a good thing - it requires a bit of micro to do damage. The problem was with 4 of them you could effectively trap units with only a single medivac, at 6:30 in to the game.
At that time of the game, if you compare the units of the other races to the terran units, even if Zerg goes Roaches for example, you still have ~15 seconds before 7 Roaches hatch, and once they hatch it was a very close fight due to the medivac heals, even with some static defenses. And workers would die in the process.
Now you can still come in with 4 Hellbats, but it will be approx 7:12 instead of 6:30. This is a much more reasonable time, which is on par with the early aggression of the other races, and will allow other races to be able to deal with it, the risk vs reward is a lot more appropriate. And it will require more micro now, which is a good thing in the end.
On February 14 2013 10:04 vNmMasterT wrote: maybe time to fix oracles now?
A single static defense can basically shut down 2 oracles, they are not really much of a problem unless you don't scout them (which is pretty fair).
This is solid. Obviously 2 hellbats die quicker than 4 and can't do as much damage. Especially with the anti-hellbat drop meta beginning to develop, such as placing your spine crawlers outside the mineral line so the hellbats' auto-attack forces them away from the drones as dayvie mentioned a bit ago, this might actually be the only nerf they need. Now it's a much more costly investment of 2 medivacs if the terran wants to go for the deadly 4-hellbat drop. Still, a lot of it is going to depend on how quick people can react to a medivac afterburning its way into your mineral line. It's the combination of the two that really bring the whole strategy into question.
Why not 2 Hellions + 1 Hellbat? If you drop the hellbat first, it soaks up the damage, while the hellions can chase down and do the damage to the drones.
This game needs more aggression! Hellbat drops are only really a "problem" in TvT, but I'm sure Terrans would figure something out, like they always have.
On February 14 2013 10:09 IAmMajiC wrote: This game needs more aggression! Hellbat drops are only really a "problem" in TvT, but I'm sure Terrans would figure something out, like they always have.
Yay! I'm glad for the change. It's the medivac boost though that's the issue, if they fuck with the hellbat too much things are going to go back to WoL. Fix the boost, that'll largely fix the issue. To those bitching about army comps with hellbats it's not that difficult to figure out as long as you don't lose your economy to the drops, this should help assuage the issue.
Good change but they need to do the same to the oracle. Having something come into your mineral line and burst down 20 workers in less than 2 seconds is terrible for gameplay.
There are all these weird "rules" of hellbat when it transforms from hellion:
It loses blue flame visually and functionally It gets a cargo space increase from 2 to 4 It obtains a biological tag, It receives the ability to be healed by medivac, because of the biological tag It but can't go into bunkers even though all biological Terran units can get into bunker
All these "rules" just don't seem clean in terms of design and confusing for new players.
There are "hidden rules" in other units as well but so far I think hellbat is the most idiosyncratic unit in the game.
the patch will make it easy to play in the next days. People won't expect it that much anymore and then people that already did some neat Hellion/Hellbat drop tricks will kill them even harder. Guess the QQ will increase this week, unless everyone stops doing it now, as only the micro intensive drops will deal damage against decent opponents.
Still think baneling bombs and oracles are worse though. (though baneling bomb tech is damn expensive even against the hellbat tree)
Well after winning 7 games in a row as Terran today with those drops I can see why they would do this hahaha. Zergs who open WoL-style just die. Though that might not be a bad thing.
On February 14 2013 10:20 larse wrote: There are all these weird "rules" of hellbat when it transforms from hellion:
It loses blue flame visually and functionally It gets a cargo space increase from 2 to 4 It obtains a biological tag, It receives the ability to be healed by medivac, because of the biological tag It but can't go into bunkers even though all biological Terran units can get into bunker
All these "rules" just don't seem clean in terms of design and confusing for new players.
There are "hidden rules" in other units as well but so far I think hellbat is the most idiosyncratic unit in the game.
Yeah, I hear you. I went crazy when I heard about the bio tag until I saw the portrait and thought of it more as just a dude in a suit like a marine or marauder. Agreed, though, it is a bit strange. Not game killing, but certainly weird.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
On February 14 2013 10:20 FeyFey wrote: the patch will make it easy to play in the next days. People won't expect it that much anymore and then people that already did some neat Hellion/Hellbat drop tricks will kill them even harder. Guess the QQ will increase this week, unless everyone stops doing it now, as only the micro intensive drops will deal damage against decent opponents.
Still think baneling bombs and oracles are worse though. (though baneling bomb tech is damn expensive even against the hellbat tree)
Oracles can be stopped by one missile turret in your mineral line. 4 hellbats, you have to pull all workers, if you don't, all those probes are dead in 2 seconds. plus they either fly in with the medivac speed giving you not as much time, or they escape with it. not sure if worse
On February 14 2013 10:20 FeyFey wrote: the patch will make it easy to play in the next days. People won't expect it that much anymore and then people that already did some neat Hellion/Hellbat drop tricks will kill them even harder. Guess the QQ will increase this week, unless everyone stops doing it now, as only the micro intensive drops will deal damage against decent opponents.
Still think baneling bombs and oracles are worse though. (though baneling bomb tech is damn expensive even against the hellbat tree)
Oracles can be stopped by one missile turret in your mineral line. 4 hellbats, you have to pull all workers, if you don't, all those probes are dead in 2 seconds. plus they either fly in with the medivac speed giving you not as much time, or they escape with it. not sure if worse
On February 14 2013 10:05 Wyrd wrote: This is solid. Obviously 2 hellbats die quicker than 4 and can't do as much damage. Especially with the anti-hellbat drop meta beginning to develop, such as placing your spine crawlers outside the mineral line so the hellbats' auto-attack forces them away from the drones as dayvie mentioned a bit ago, this might actually be the only nerf they need. Now it's a much more costly investment of 2 medivacs if the terran wants to go for the deadly 4-hellbat drop. Still, a lot of it is going to depend on how quick people can react to a medivac afterburning its way into your mineral line. It's the combination of the two that really bring the whole strategy into question.
That bolded part is what irks me. The metagame on how to defend against them is just starting to develop. It could be that changing hellbat cargo space from 2 to 4 is a necessary change, might even be the correct one. But they weren't left alone long enough to see if people would develop a plan against them -- the second something happens where it's shown to be an extremely strong early game strategy in a major tournament, it's knee-jerk nerfed. Same thing happened to blue flame right after MLG Columbus 2011. Same thing happens to a lot of Terran strategies.
I don't think Blizzard cares about balancing the game, per se. I think they care about having longer games. When something early on causes massive damage (hellbats, reapers, blue flame, 1/1/1, warhounds, blink timings, etc), it's "immediately" (in blizzard time, that means in the ~1 month or less range) nerfed, while if something later in the tech tree seems to be too powerful, they will wait months, if at all, before any changes are made.
This makes it possible for more epic games because of a higher chance for games to go longer, but when your philosophy is based around "asymmetric balance" where Terran is supposed to be the race with the "early game advantage", and you keep only nerfing the early game without examining how these things affect the late game, you end up with...well, to put it bluntly, Wings of Liberty.
Again -- this change might be the right one. But I honestly don't know, because it's just too quick. I don't want all these quick changes to things to happen again, where we end up with another Wings of Liberty balance nightmare, where asymmetric balance basically means "which race will dominate all the tournaments this patch?" I'd much rather see longer gaps between these patches, where the players are given time to come up with clever solutions to problems, and if something actually turns out to be too powerful, *then* the nerfbat can come out.
I just hope for better things for the Heart of the Swarm, but I see the balance team taking the same path that they did with Wings, and it makes me sad.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
Herp derp. Different games. Different engines. Different mechanics. Different units. Everything in BW was overpowered. It was also a bigger gamble. Doing a reaver drop could win or lose you the game. Doing a hellbat drop doesn't hurt the terran too much unless you're doing some 7rr shit from 10 patches ago.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
Herp derp. Different games. Different engines. Different mechanics. Different units. Everything in BW was overpowered. It was also a bigger gamble. Doing a reaver drop could win or lose you the game. Doing a hellbat drop doesn't hurt the terran too much unless you're doing some 7rr shit from 10 patches ago.
yeah thats why they are nerfing the drop mechanism that much makes sense, people are saying the hellbat itself is too powerful even outside of doing drops because its "only 100 minerals". its also 1/4 the speed of a zergling, cannot shoot up like a marine and has less than half its range, and has 0 passive abilities other than the ability to change into a shittier version of itself. It also requires a structure that costs 100 gas in order to be built, these things aren't coming out of barracks.
On February 14 2013 10:41 JacobNX01a wrote: this still isn't enough, having a mineral only unit that deals that much splash damage and can still be healed by medivacs is just ridiculous
it's also a unit which requires the armory to build, which is consistently and constantly ignored.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on drones).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
On February 14 2013 10:17 avilo wrote: Good change but they need to do the same to the oracle. Having something come into your mineral line and burst down 20 workers in less than 2 seconds is terrible for gameplay.
Could you exaggerate more? It's 1 worker every 2 seconds. 25 damage vs light every second. You've over-estimated the damage by a factor of 20. I suppose that's blizzard seconds, so if you want we could instead say 1.45 seconds per kill if you really want to go that route (so you've only over-estimated it by a factor of 14.5), but it's not remotely on the same level, and oracles are far easier to defend against.
On February 14 2013 10:41 JacobNX01a wrote: this still isn't enough, having a mineral only unit that deals that much splash damage and can still be healed by medivacs is just ridiculous
it's also a unit which requires the armory to build, which is consistently and constantly ignored.
That's mostly irrelevant, you're going to get an armory anyway unless you're doing a 1 base or 2 base all-in. It just requires that you do it a little bit sooner than you might otherwise do so, but you are by no means required to do so and still make use of hellbats.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I didn't say Zerg should be allowed to drone to the max. I said that the cost (especially the hidden costs) for defending what should be "harass" is ridiculous and puts the Zerg too far behind (or rather, lets the Terran get too far ahead).
I think this nerf to Hellbat might be just the right answer, simply because it will require less defense from Zerg but still require more defense than a handful of lings. However, the patch really only delays this kind of Hellbat harass by a bit (less than a minute for the extra Medivac required), so we'll have to see if it is enough. By the way, with 2 Medivacs, now there is double the healing.... So I don't know how much of a nerf this is, essentially delaying the drop for less than a minute so that it can then hit with double healing.
Also, if Hellbats are so high-tech, why do they cost only 100 minerals apiece?
Jinky thanks for that well thought out post, don't let these people get on your nerves. You specifically said you ARENT SURE - and will have to test it out to see if now this fixes what before was a huge problem for zerg. Your queens & roach warren is nearly mandatory these days anyway, and hopefully now it won't require as many as 5 roaches per base. I think what the other guy was saying is that he finds it absurd that zerg can get away with a "handful of lings" combined with "siege queens" defending terran's innate ability of early harass. Zerg infrastructure can also bounce back way better assuming your queen doesnt die, than lets say protoss for example.
I would like to hear more from protosses about how they perceive this change, and how they WERE handling it previously (as someone said, the change happened so quick, not all of us are even sure if it was being handled well previously).
On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote: Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I don't have problem with making units (roaches, zerglings, banglings) to counter a drop in the early game. My only beef is that with the medivac's speedboost, the drop has great mobility. Zerg's only good counter units against hellbats are queen and roaches which are slow. Zerg's only speedy units are zerglings (with speed upgrade)..but zerglings roast easily against hellbat. Banglings....yeah right....
Let say, zerg has a main and an exp and roaches are protecting the mineral line. Since roaches can't go one on one against hellbats, you need more than 4 roaches to deal with one drop of 4 hellbats. Since roaches are so slow, medivac can bounce around the main and the exp so easily, zerg players have to spend so much more on defense to deal with a drop.
We can talk about other defenses..queens (so slow off creep plus not very effective against hellbats and takes forever to kill a medivac), spines and spores (you need more than one to stop a drop)...then it makes zerg very defensive and static.
Plus, as others mention, hellbat costs no gas. Roaches costs gas.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them.At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats.Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group.
IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions.
You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really?
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I didn't say Zerg should be allowed to drone to the max. I said that the cost (especially the hidden costs) for defending what should be "harass" is ridiculous and puts the Zerg too far behind (or rather, lets the Terran get too far ahead).
I think this nerf to Hellbat might be just the right answer, simply because it will require less defense from Zerg but still require more defense than a handful of lings. However, the patch really only delays this kind of Hellbat harass by a bit (less than a minute for the extra Medivac required), so we'll have to see if it is enough. By the way, with 2 Medivacs, now there is double the healing.... So I don't know how much of a nerf this is, essentially delaying the drop for less than a minute so that it can then hit with double healing.
Also, if Hellbats are so high-tech, why do they cost only 100 minerals apiece?
Speedbanelings are almost same tech,(Lair,baneling nest,baneling speed) so why they cost only 50 min 25 gas???? Come on...Incredible!!!
On February 14 2013 11:02 abei1234 wrote: Jinky thanks for that well thought out post, don't let these people get on your nerves. You specifically said you ARENT SURE - and will have to test it out to see if now this fixes what before was a huge problem for zerg. Your queens roach warren is nearly mandatory these days anyway, and hopefully now it won't require as many as 5 roaches per base. Zerg infrastructure can also bounce back way better assuming your queen doesnt die, than lets say protoss for example. Would like to hear more from protosses about how they perceive this change, and how they WERE handling it previously (as someone said, the change happened so quick, not all of us are even sure if it was being handled well previously)
Thanks for the sensible input.
Yah, I would consider the queens/roach warren as mandatory/gimmes, but so is the Factory (ie. if Terran is going the fac route... if not going early fac, Zerg is probably not getting a Warren), so those things kind of equal out.
On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote: Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I don't have problem with making units (roaches, zerglings, banglings) to counter a drop in the early game. My only beef is that with the medivac's speedboost, the drop has great mobility. Zerg's only good counter units against hellbats are queen and roaches which are slow. Zerg's only speedy units are zerglings (with speed upgrade)..but zerglings roast easily against hellbat. Banglings....yeah right....
Let say, zerg has a main and an exp and roaches are protecting the mineral line. Since roaches can't go one on one against hellbats, you need more than 4 roaches to deal with one drop of 4 hellbats. Since roaches are so slow, medivac can bounce around the main and the exp so easily, zerg players have to spend so much more on defense to deal with a drop.
We can talk about other defenses..queens (so slow off creep plus not very effective against hellbats and takes forever to kill a medivac), spines and spores (you need more than one to stop a drop)...then it makes zerg very defensive and static.
Plus, as others mention, hellbat costs no gas. Roaches costs gas.
Nice POV there,but then: Marines costs no gas.Banelings costs gas. Dont you think this es even worse? And guess what? Marines shoot AIR!!!! WTF? How can this unit be so OP and imbalanced...but I suppose is ok for you...
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them.
In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.
At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats.
Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.
Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group.
How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.
IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions.
By sacrificing so much economy in favor of defense, the Zerg can't actually push the Terran who will have Tanks by then and/or marauders and more Hellbats. The only thing Zerg can do after this kind of defense against the Hellbat drop is to instantly make a LOT of drones, hopefully saturating his 3rd base.... and by then, when he actually can start making army units, Terran is solidly sitting on 3 bases. You should watch more pro games on this, because this is how it has been playing out. An immediate roach-ling counterattack, at best, will deny the Terran's 3rd for a while, but that means the Zerg's economy is weak because he invested heavily in an army, and the Terran is sitting on 2-bases with 3 or 4 orbitals(MULEs), vastly out-mining the Zerg who will be spending money on trying to saturate his 3rd and catch up. Once he has caught up, the Terran army will roll over him.
You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.
Okay, this is just ignorance about the mechanics behind Zerg economy/army. Every larva a Zerg uses for an army unit is a larva not used on drones. Zerg sacrifices economy for army. There is a fine balance Zerg must do. Every larva used for an army unit instead of a drone (especially this early in the game) hurts the Zerg economy "exponentially". Terran and Protoss are not like this at all and do not have a parallel to compare to.
You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.
I already talked about this; you are repeating yourself.
Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone???
No, I didn't say that. I think a few roaches and a couple of spores is reasonable, plus the queens which the Zerg would already have. The "greedy zerg" misnomer came about because people don't understand the Zerg larvae mechanic. Zerg HAS to make a lot of drones: to keep up in economy (vs MULEs), to eventually make an army that is competitive (vs superior units of Terran and vastly superior units/army of Protoss), and of course to make buildings which uses up drones.
Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really?
I don't know much about PvT.
Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above. My responses are in bold.
Will helions still be 2 slots? If so I think this only changes where terrans have to drop, the builds still going to be effective. Going to be interesting to see where it ends up.
These are the changes they're doing when there is only a month left before this game is released? I'm not sure what to say anymore... I guess yay only 2 battlehellions per drop now...?
I just don't understand why you'd do a whole patch solely on this when there is so much other stuff .. idk anymore d00d @_@;;
On February 14 2013 11:10 Dvriel wrote: Nice POV there,but then: Marines costs no gas.Banelings costs gas. Dont you think this es even worse? And guess what? Marines shoot AIR!!!! WTF? How can this unit be so OP and imbalanced...but I suppose is ok for you...
Well, one good bangling mine can take out a few marines..so i think that's pretty balance
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term or not, and it is something I sort of made up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 . (I do really like the Medivac and tech and reactor labs swapping though. These are good examples of them making boring or simple units/structures more fun in SC2 compared to BW.)
On February 14 2013 11:24 Torte de Lini wrote: I still don't like how Hellbats are functioned, I just can't stand that they're bio, can be healed, but they function like mech.
Does that mean banelings hit them really hard or is that light?
They are classified as light. So yes, banelings do great damage against them. That's actually part of the Zerg hard counter, roach/baneling.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the biological tag from the Hellbats! Wouldn't it be a better and logical solution to make the Hellbat drops less powerful? At least for now, until the meta develops further.
what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 .
Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them.
In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.
At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats.
Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.
Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group.
How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.
IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions.
You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really?
Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above.
(CURRENTLY EDITING)
Send 4 queens in one of the bases and onle 5 roaches in the other.If he try to drop 2 in each would be even worse for him.Wont do any damage!Spore and 4 queens will kill or hurt medivac so much that the moment he get the next base,the spore there will kill it and may only one hellbat is dropped.You also must micro and pull drones if you want and believe me,this helps A LOT!!!
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
You also have to consider during the transforming time, any shots on the hellions are worth more damage and they can't be healed. So by the time they are done transforming, they'll either be much weaker or some will be dead.
And if they try to do it with 2 medivacs to not have to transform, that's a 42 second delay on the timing. Either way, it's a subtle nerf that won't screw up every hellbat scenario.
Im pretty sure you can hit a timing 20 seconds later actually. Just build a reactor on the rax and swap it onto the starport (fifty gas takes about that long to mine on 2 geysers). This is only possible if you do rax->CC->double gas->hellbat drops, which is what I do anyways, because you have the extra gas. The only difference is a delay for the +1 upgrade i get from the armory.
Haven't tested this though so I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure about this.
On February 14 2013 11:29 Aveng3r wrote: what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
Again, the fact that hellbats are one of the "slower" units in the game. You can run away from them at any time, and should do so since they are bad against buildings. The problem before the nerf is that, even if you ran away, the Terran had too much freedom to pick them back up and drop on the escaping units. Now that's not nearly as effective.
On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote: So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
You also have to consider during the transforming time, any shots on the hellions are worth more damage and they can't be healed. So by the time they are done transforming, they'll either be much weaker or some will be dead.
And if they try to do it with 2 medivacs to not have to transform, that's a 42 second delay on the timing. Either way, it's a subtle nerf that won't screw up every hellbat scenario.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that hellbats CAN be healed while they are transforming, I'm pretty sure this means they can withstand more damage. I made a mental note of this during a game. Worth popping into unit tester but im dead tired right now.
Ugh, As a protoss player Hellbats are extremely powerful, however I feel that it is defendable if you arent super greedy which is the standard metagame these days... Ah well guess blizzard feels the need to change the game without letting us figure it out on our own.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups.
8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop.
Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here:
Zerg costs 2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren)
Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae).
So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones.
Do the real math before postulating with such conviction.
I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them.
In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.
At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats.
Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.
Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group.
How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.
IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions.
You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really?
Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above.
(CURRENTLY EDITING)
Send 4 queens in one of the bases and onle 5 roaches in the other.If he try to drop 2 in each would be even worse for him.Wont do any damage!Spore and 4 queens will kill or hurt medivac so much that the moment he get the next base,the spore there will kill it and may only one hellbat is dropped.You also must micro and pull drones if you want and believe me,this helps A LOT!!!
What happens when the Terran drops all 4 Hellbats in the first base (where the 4 queens and spore is)? Yeah, the Medivac may die, but the queens don't do enough damage to kill the Hellbats quickly at all (especially since they will be shooting at the Medivac even after the Hellbats have been dropped, probably attacking the queens if the Zerg pulled the drones away), and more than likely the Hellbats will kill the queens first (unless they transfuse, but that is unlikely since Queens won't have spare energy that early, and even if they do, then that is injects/tumors lost).
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 .
Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again.
About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too.
I think this is a bad idea, there need to be super-strong drop options for Terran. The problem I think needs to be address is the hyper-mobility of the medivac. It has no drawbacks for use.
I think a better solution would be to not allow unloading during a speed drop, and that choosing to unload would cancel the boosters and start the cooldown. I also think that boosting medivacs should not be able to turn sharply, and that a sharp turn would also cancel the boost and start the cooldown. This would prevent medivacs boosting in, dropping in the mineral line, and then picking up and still being able to boost to the fleeing workers. Plus, the medivac looks ridiculous boosting back and forth on a dime.
On February 14 2013 11:24 Torte de Lini wrote: I still don't like how Hellbats are functioned, I just can't stand that they're bio, can be healed, but they function like mech.
Does that mean banelings hit them really hard or is that light?
They are classified as light. So yes, banelings do great damage against them. That's actually part of the Zerg hard counter, roach/baneling.
There could be something to a couple of banelings mixed with a few roaches. Requires less larvae (which can be used for Drones), and less supply. But I would hate to see my banelings connect just for the Hellbat to be healed by the Medivac(s). Would have to test it.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 .
Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again.
About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too.
I didn't say it was super hard, but it IS micro. It's not just a-move, not even at the bare minimum.
Guess they wanted to keep the healing? still a decent change.. I admit I've only seen the drop a couple times, but, DRG looked helpless.. haha.. not saying he did everything he could of to defend, anyway.. looked crazy though.
I like that you can still choose to take 4 Hellions if you want to transform them into Hellbots once you've dropped them, but that in turn gives the defending player more time to react. There's an actual choice. Do you:
a.) Take 2 Hellbats b.) Take 4 Hellions, then turn them into Hellbats c.) Take 4 Hellions and continue to use them as Hellions
Tactically, its more interesting, and I think the flexibility of it feels very Terran.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit.
Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 .
Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again.
About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too.
I didn't say it was super hard, but it IS micro. It's not just a-move, not even at the bare minimum.
Well, it's pretty damn easy. Speed-boost Medivac dropping some Hellbats is some of the easiest micro I can think of, and it is about as close to "A-move" as you can get. Okay, so instead of the one button you have to push for A-move (i.e. "A"), the drop requires you push the Boost button and then the Drop-click. Okay, 1 button (boost) and then 1 button targeting the medivac (drop). I think even Silver league and up can handle that. The point is: micro is not a factor in the Hellbat drop as it is currently (4 Hellbats in 1 speed-boosted Medivac). For the amount of damage it does, it is unreasonable, even IF it took a lot of micro to do.
Just cover your base entrances (where the Medivac will come from) with Spores / Turrets / Cannons already. Its not that expensive and can save your ass, so why not do it? Battle Hellions are slow and short ranged, so they need to be dropped right on the workers. There are still the Widow Mines which could be dropped in your base, so having some detection prepared already is good. People should stop this stupid "this slows my attack timing down by 1 minute, so its bad" way of thinking.
Feel like this won't effect much other than the extreme turbo rush hellbat drop scenario. Midgame hellbat drops will still be devastating, and zergs will still have trouble shooting down the (now 2) speedvacs.
I'm on the fence as to whether said drops are actually OP or not. Other races have pretty awesome harass options as well, so...
On February 14 2013 12:33 Rabiator wrote: Just cover your base entrances (where the Medivac will come from) with Spores / Turrets / Cannons already. Its not that expensive and can save your ass, so why not do it? Battle Hellions are slow and short ranged, so they need to be dropped right on the workers. There are still the Widow Mines which could be dropped in your base, so having some detection prepared already is good. People should stop this stupid "this slows my attack timing down by 1 minute, so its bad" way of thinking.
Yes, it is expensive.
Also, how do you know where the drop will come from? You can't put spores/turrets/cannons around the entire perimeter of your bases, and even if you do, the speed-boost makes it so the Medivac can easily fly through the damage and still make the drop, probably still at 1/2 to 2/3 health.
On February 14 2013 11:29 Aveng3r wrote: what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
Then you must have a really bad reaction time, the transformation takes a bit of time to do.
Honestly, you do the same thing vs. hellbat as you would against bio; stop the drops from coming. If that means you have to open Stargate to stop the medivacs, then open stargate; if you need to open Robo to see where the drop is coming, then open Robo. You can't actually complain against the hellbat just because it exists; it's a vital unit to make mech viable in TvP (which is really nice if you're terran).
Don't play WoL, and try to balance HoTS with only WoL in mind. Play HoTS; try all the new units, try your own build orders, try whatever you need to to make it a more fun Beta.
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
still feel like they need to not be considered bio. it makes no sense on several levels and they already soak up shit tons of damage without it.
and medivac boost is ridiculous. they might as well have just increased the medivac's speed, period, considering how short the cooldown is. it needs to cost energy. there's absolutely no drawback whatsoever to using it the instant it comes off cooldown anytime medivacs are moving anywhere.
On February 14 2013 11:29 Aveng3r wrote: what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
Then you must have a really bad reaction time, the transformation takes a bit of time to do.
Honestly, you do the same thing vs. hellbat as you would against bio; stop the drops from coming. If that means you have to open Stargate to stop the medivacs, then open stargate; if you need to open Robo to see where the drop is coming, then open Robo. You can't actually complain against the hellbat just because it exists; it's a vital unit to make mech viable in TvP (which is really nice if you're terran).
Don't play WoL, and try to balance HoTS with only WoL in mind. Play HoTS; try all the new units, try your own build orders, try whatever you need to to make it a more fun Beta.
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
On February 14 2013 09:38 Beakyboo wrote: Hellbats are such an odd unit now. Hellions transform into hellbats and magically turn biological and now magically take up more room in medivacs too. I wish they'd find less awkward ways to make this unit work.
Well, lore wise you can always say that hellions, while rearranging into hellbats, stretch themselves and occupy a bigger volume, they are less compact, hence 4 cargo space.
"Lore wise"
hahahahahahahaha
As if Blizzard even cares about this at this point. I know I wouldn't. I'd be more worried about the declining popularity of the game and the overall relatively inexistant hype regarding their expansion.
I haven't been as neutral regarding a Blizzard's expansion since Hellfire (Diablo 1 expansion)..
On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote: With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing.
I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done.
Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once.
Please don't tell me you're actually impressed by HoTS...
Being impressed or not doesnt change the subject, when someone hop in a thread to throw that Blizzard doesnt know what they are doing, it would be nice to provide a reason, so we could, like, have a discussion about it
I kinda like this change but feel like they have a lot lot lot of other issue to fix before HotS go live, such as the new void rays, mines and the general state of Zerg
On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote: With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing.
I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done.
Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once.
Please don't tell me you're actually impressed by HoTS...
Being impressed or not doesnt change the subject, when someone hop in a thread to decalre that Blizzard doesnt know what they are doing, it would be nice to provide a reason, so we could, like, have a discussion about it
I kinda like this change but feel like they have a lot lot lot of other issue to fix before HotS go live, such as the new void rays, mines and the general state of Zerg
How about making the game less deathballish, and more dynamic? How about making PvZ and PvP less of an abysmal matchup? Balancing at this point is like tweaking an engine on a car that isn't even built yet.
This was much needed for play as it is hard for zerg when a timing drop of hellbats occur as they do not have the right kind of army to counter the drops(if anything roaches) but even then by the time they get to the base, it may be too late. Good call, Blizz!
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous.
As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote: With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing.
I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done.
Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once.
Please don't tell me you're actually impressed by HoTS...
Please tell me you are able to contribute more to the discussion than that...
Actually, judging from your post history I won't hold my breath. Why are you even on this forum, discussing this "dead game"?
Because it's worth a shot to try reasoning the people in charge of this game.
Doesn't help though when some people are satisfied with the product they're getting... must be the same people that still play Diablo 3 I guess...
The day people will need more than 3 bases to mine a good amount of minerals in a 20 minutes game,and the day the optimal way of moving an army will not be in a big ball (less unit clumping, for example), then we might have a game that will be more enjoyable to watch.
Still having little hope we will see changes someday.. but for now I'm more hyped about LoL's new champ than Blizzard's new expansion.. yup, it's gotten that bad.
And speaking of Ad Hominem.. what have you done anyways to contribute? :/
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous.
As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit.
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well.
Then it completely failed to make a point because Nydus swarm host isnt available at this state of the game and would actually lose the basetrade You cant just throw empty "Be more creative" like that, actually you can but no one care. If you think there is a simple cost-effective answer then just post it.
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous.
As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit.
Try one viking in the most likely direction and a turret in the second most likely. And then a decent number of units and kiting. Battle hellions are far slower than any stimmed unit, and pulling scvs should be an instant response anyway. Or think of other things and practice.
And speaking of Ad Hominem.. what have you done anyways to contribute? :/
I dunno, for starters I prefer to discuss the game and not what might have been. Nor do I parrot overdone arguments about mineral saturation and deathballs when clearly those aren't even related to discussion at hand.
Diablo 3 related burns? Is that seriously the best you can come up with? Do us all a favor and move on to LoL already.
unit clumping isn't going away. they're not intentionally going to design the units so they repel each other (talk about a game playing itself), and they're definitely not going to try to mimic brood war unit movement idiosyncrasies, that's contrived as hell, especially when the game engine has been out for what? 3 years now? if your enjoyment of sc2 is contingent on that changing you'll save yourself a lot of heartache by jumping ship right now.
i mean people in these threads saying this kind of shit make themselves out to be fighting the good fight over some critically important issue or something lol. 'write your elected representatives to get unit clumping fixed! make them listen! your voice counts!' get off it already.
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous.
As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You didn't listen to what I've been saying in several posts on this thread. Being prepared for the drop isn't the problem; the problem is that the necessary preparations hurts the Zerg economy/future way too much for the minimal cost put in by Terran. (I'm speaking from a ZvT perspective here.)
Scouting the incoming Hellbat drop is not the problem and never was. I don't know why you bring that up: it isn't an issue. Even when pros see it coming and scouted it well beforehand, they still have a hell of a time dealing with it. It has completely to do with the timing of the drop in the game (too early), which is why I think nerfing the Hellbat in the way that Blizzard did was a move in the right direction. It slows down a 4 Hellbat drop. We'll have to see if it is enough, but I think it will, at the very least, be a big improvement.
Just so you don't construe this is a "I'm Zerg so I hate anything that is cool about Terran" kind of mentality, I will state for you that I do not think that way. I think Hellbats are great! Their particular synergy with Medivac speed-boost drops has been insane though.
And I will quote Protosnake, because he reiterates what I also have said:
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well.
Then it completely failed to make a point because Nydus swarm host isnt available at this state of the game and would actually lose the basetrade You cant just throw empty "Be more creative" like that, actually you can but no one care. If you think there is a simple cost-effective answer then just post it.
On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote: I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle.
Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed.
The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.)
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous.
As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit.
Try one viking in the most likely direction and a turret in the second most likely. And then a decent number of units and kiting. Battle hellions are far slower than any stimmed unit, and pulling scvs should be an instant response anyway. Or think of other things and practice.
Viking? You're saying that to deal with this harass, the Terran must go 1/1/1 as well, plus make Engineering Bay for a Turret? Do you realize how that would fail anyway? The Medivac would still be able to drop the Hellbats wherever it chooses before it dies because the speed-boost is so fast. You also are leaving out the fact that keeping a "decent number of units" in your base means that you are not putting any pressure on the opponent. Who is to say that the Medivac has to even commit to the drop? Why can't the Medivac just hover off to the side and wait, forcing you to leave your "decent number of units" to defend a drop that may or may not happen? Then the person doing the drop has no pressure from you and can happily expand.
Also, Hellbats aren't that slow. They have the same speed as Roaches off creep (without speed upgrade). Oh, by the way, that is the same speed as Marines (unstimmed).
I don't like talking about leagues, but you sound like you are in a lower league because you don't understand the implications of the things you says.
This leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Dayvie mentions they were tossing that idea around, they mention it to the community, the community collectively says "That's cool, but it's not enough" then they proceed with the change, and ignore any other suggestion made. Why were we asked in the first place?
I still think this unit has issues with it not costing gas, doing too much damage, and being too buff. I also don't like how this unit has so many rules associated with it. We still have a month...let's hope their attention hasn't shifted away from this unit all together.
Some people shouldn't really complain all that much about the Hellbat itself because at least Blizzard is TRYING to balance the unit. When people complained about the Warhound, Blizzard barely did anything with the unit to try to balance it out and they just took it out.
I understand where some people are coming from I do. But don't complain so much that they take out yet another unit from Terran. Even though they most likely wouldn't do that anyway.
On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote: With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing.
I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done.
Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once.
The reason is the issue isn't the Hellbat drop it's the Hellbat by extension the medivac. The Hellbat is way too strong (Hight HP and armor and can be healed by medivac) does cone damage and seems to kill every ground unit. The Medivac moves way too fast. Drop a could Hellbats in a mineral line kill it. Pick up speed over to the next base and repeat. Your army can't get there in time if you split up chances are the hell bats kill a good majority of your units too. Even if you put up spores or cannons the medivac just speeds past them. If you put one in your mineral line it doesn't kill the medivac fast enough.
On February 14 2013 14:17 lowercase wrote: Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability.
Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade.
I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech.
The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade?
They couldn't change infestor so quickly because it was a cornerstone for Zerg composition in WoL, which most people think (and I do too) is broken and boring. They can nerf it further in HotS (like they did) because Zerg now can use Hydras and other mid-game units/strategies without relying on infestor.
This Hellbat nerf changes nothing about Hellbat except that now you can't do the ridiculous early and powerful Hellbat drops, which is not the point of the unit. The unit is primarily to help deal with Zealots, I believe, and also give Terran more options for other situations, like mass ling.
On February 14 2013 14:17 lowercase wrote: Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability.
Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade.
I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech.
The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade?
Four of those things being ferried into your mineral line at ludicrous speed was absurd. Regular medivacs can be shoo'd off with good reaction time, and if you can't deal with that it's your fault. Or fast medivacs dropping units that don't 1 shot the better part of a mineral line. Since I don't have have laser eyes and lightning fingers this was killing me an awful lot.
Good on blizzard. I remember when roaches being 2 food was the end of the world; people will get over it.
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
I like it. You can still fit 4 hellions and transform them into hidden corner. Not as viable as a early game rush, but still can be pulled later in the game. Maybe 2 med drop with 4 hellbat will become a thing later on, the medivac speed booster thing's really strong
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost...
whine before even test ? wow thats ....
well yeah not to whine or anything (didn't play enough HotS to really know about balance) but hellbats as straight up fighting units seem extremely strong. A unit that can both be your main fighting unit and your main harassing unit feels kind of weird to me. I dunno about balance but I just think it's poor design.
They're not necessary the main fighting unit but they fit really well into standard bio army. I'd like to see them used more with mech play than they're "tank-replacing role" as the main mech unit in bio-mech. (tl:dr; not saying medivac healing is too strong, just doesn't really make sense at all ^^)
I think the change is good mainly because of TvT as it was the only/best way to play before.
What bothers me equally much as terran is tvp. I have lost so many games because protoss right klicks 1 unit to my base (mothership core, oracle, dt) and no I am not bronze.I want to open sth like reapers or hellions or marodeurs for harras but protoss does either defend too easily with purify or even if you are allowed to harras protoss does equally well by just klicking his mothershipcore to your mineral line. Even with normal 2 base openings you are always playing on very thin ice imo.
Some ideas/dreams: turrets without engeneringbay, vikings with speed boost, mothership core comes out much slower or maybe is available later, widow mines produce faster (you can't build them reactonary and if you have only 1-2 its very random if you get lucky and kill oracle), better or less energy and easier to spam autoturrets.
Am I the only one who thinks that this change won't really do much? I mean sure, it stops from super early hellbat drops from going in and killing all your workers, and it's a big relief to zerg players who usually rely on zling/bling squads to defend drops before infestors hit (or mutas or whatever, since people aren't going for infestors 110% of the time now) which is just ridiculously inefficient against hellbats.
But I feel like the problem with hellbats in the first place is that if they were meant to compliment mech, especially against speed zealots in TvP, why are they biological? Bio was already a very strong composition in TvP, and the matchup was fairly balanced with the dynamic between ghost vs HT micro and colossi vs. viking micro. The hellbat's ridiculously high damage to light now makes chargelots fucking worthless if the terran decides to incorporate hellbats, even without upgrades they rip zealots apart, and marauders absolutely destroy stalkers, so if a terran goes a bio composition with hellbats incorporated, what the hell is protoss supposed to do except take to the air? (but then, behold! marines!) I mean sure colossi, archons, and HTs are the ones dealing most of the damage, but if you give terran a unit that is able to negate the meatshields for these squishy glass canons, it's going to be very very difficult for protoss to trade cost effectively.
In TvZ, bio was not as strong of a comp, mainly because of fungal and banelings decimating marines, but hellbats could help bio along a bit, seeing as they basically fill the role of splash damage dealers and meat shields all in one, which in theory, would help them fulfill the role that tanks would in marine tank, but I can't say much about that since I haven't watched/played too many ZvTs in HotS against bio.
I think at the very least, hellbats need to considered NOT biological, it doesn't make sense anyways. It's a fucking car, transforms into a walker, now it's suddenly biological? The hell? If you want to add back firebats, just add back firebats, don't make it some awkward transition from a hellion that just does more than double the firebat's damage.
On February 14 2013 14:17 lowercase wrote: Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability.
Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade.
I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech.
The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade?
I think that the approach to unit speeds that Blizzard has chosen for HotS is not right. I can't say that I have any proof of this, but it feels like they put too much emphasis in great differences of speeds.
The value of a harassment unit is not soley dependant on its speed. At least not the difference in speed between it and the defending units. One of the great strengths of bio is that it can always disengage from combat. One of the great strengths of speedlings is that they can always run the long way around to get surrounds or catch a drop.
The game already has fast units and they are already very popular. In fact, the greatest harassment units in WoL are just those (and warped in zealots/DTs). Mutas, Phoenix and Hellions don't get to see so much use because they are almost pure harassment. It is a much bigger investment most of the time, will not necessarily do much damage and requires careful control. The biggest issue is that if harassment fails, you have no fallback, whereas two medivacs full of marines is ok against almost everything.
Hellbats were meant to be slower and bulkier, thus allowing them entrance into the mainstay army for terran. This would be the fallback plan for hellion harass. I like this idea, since mech is fragile without them. A cheap and expendable unit might be just what is needed. The trouble is that in its current design, the hellbat is actually better than the old hellion at killing workers and also puts up more of a fight against potential defenders, making it a downright upgrade for harassment.
The reason they had to nerf blue flame is exactly the reason they had to nerf battle hellions. The hellion with either upgrade is just way too strong in one single way. Just run into a mineral line and win. Nobody likes that.
I don't know if the hellbat is good enough in a straight up fight as is. I would like to believe it is. If not, it would be simple to buff it in other ways to make up for the reduces splash. I just do not think that slowing a unit down necessarily makes it impotent when it comes to harassment and that is the issue with the current design.
On February 14 2013 14:58 crbox wrote: I like it. You can still fit 4 hellions and transform them into hidden corner. Not as viable as a early game rush, but still can be pulled later in the game. Maybe 2 med drop with 4 hellbat will become a thing later on, the medivac speed booster thing's really strong
a) Just drop Widow Mines instead if you drop them "in a hidden corner" ... b) Battle Hellions move SLOWLY, so dropping them far away is USELESS. c) If you dont "cover your main base" (and too many pros dont as can be seen by Zerg who dont bother covering their main base with creep and then having problems against drops) you deserve to lose.
To anyone actually complaining that it doesn't make sense for a hellbat to be twice as big as a hellion:
Zerglings and Ultralisks come out of the same sized egg. Zerglings take up 1/2 supply each but you still only fit 8 in an overlord. Banelings are roughly the same size as zerglings and you only fit 4 in an overlord.
The last one is especially pertinent and is clearly a balance choice.
I like this change, it should make hellbat drops a lot less crazy.
While I think Hellbat drops were really strong (speaking as protoss here), I think it more has to do with Medivac boosters getting factory units into a place where they otherwise couldn't get in a really ridiculously fast amount of time. That's what I think should have been nerfed, not the Hellbat itself.
Since the Hellbat space increase, I've had every Terran open up against me with a Widow Mine drop instead. Every time I've seen it coming, had stalkers in place, had the photon overcharge on my main Nexus, and I still end up losing ten probes. The Medivac boosts over the stalkers and ignores the Nexus cannon and gets at least three mines down. I'm starting to think that a forge and a cannon in the mineral line is going to need to be a standard part of whatever you get after Stargate or Robo.
About the patch this nerf is good tvt was so weird, and this 4 hellion drops transforming in the base will be ez to deal u will need at least 2 full medivas to make it work cuz hellbats are too slow. i understand zerg complaining but protoss they can deal with these drops they are just too greedy to make some defense early game.
On February 14 2013 15:39 TGalore wrote: While I think Hellbat drops were really strong (speaking as protoss here), I think it more has to do with Medivac boosters getting factory units into a place where they otherwise couldn't get in a really ridiculously fast amount of time. That's what I think should have been nerfed, not the Hellbat itself.
Since the Hellbat space increase, I've had every Terran open up against me with a Widow Mine drop instead. Every time I've seen it coming, had stalkers in place, had the photon overcharge on my main Nexus, and I still end up losing ten probes. The Medivac boosts over the stalkers and ignores the Nexus cannon and gets at least three mines down. I'm starting to think that a forge and a cannon in the mineral line is going to need to be a standard part of whatever you get after Stargate or Robo.
On February 14 2013 15:22 Zealously wrote: Let's see how this turns out.
Yep, right. I think it's a good move, but we'll see. I think Hellbats in their current state are (too?) powerful, so this nerf comes right. If additional balancing for the Hellbat is required, it will definitely be there.
And speaking of Ad Hominem.. what have you done anyways to contribute? :/
I dunno, for starters I prefer to discuss the game and not what might have been. Nor do I parrot overdone arguments about mineral saturation and deathballs when clearly those aren't even related to discussion at hand.
Diablo 3 related burns? Is that seriously the best you can come up with? Do us all a favor and move on to LoL already.
How are they not related? aren't the balance patches about making the game a more enjoyable experience, both to play and to watch?
On February 14 2013 15:58 Calm_down wrote: Retarded blizzard with retarded balance approach. Believe me or not, this game 3-6 month after release will be the same shit as Wol is right now.
CALM DOWN.... get it?..
no but seriously you're right.. once the metagame has been figured out, the interest will die out pretty.
Better than WoL? of course. Worthy of any hype? nope.
Hellbat -The cargo space required to transport a Hellbat has been increased from 2 to 4.
1) good, blizz, good, now hots is 100% balanced 2) i always wonder how incredibly fast they nerf terrans and how they give us 2-3 months for changed for zerg or protoss.
Starting point: Zerg have a pretty powerful and easy to use combo with their Broodlord-Infestor combination. Terran basically have one choice to battle this - with a decent chance of success - and that is the "dont let them get there" strategy. This is sad, because there should be a battle of equal forces where the more skilled player wins in an army vs. army battle. A direct confrontation only has a slim chance of success due to the overwhelming productivity of Zerg, which can whittle down Terran forces that arent as easily reproduced.
Their solution to this is to give Terrans even more "dont let them get there"-power by adding a speed boost to Medivacs and letting Battle Hellions be healed by those same Medivacs. Obviously players are using this tactic and it gives terrans a pretty strong harrassment capability with even fewer units than a Medivac filled with Marines. Consequently you can do "drop micro" like they used to in that other game with that Protoss unit. It turns out to be powerful and since players cant be expected to build turrets / spore crawlers / photon cannons to cover the potential entry points into their bases they cleverly decide to just reduce the number of Battle Hellions carried by a Medivac.
Sooo ... Blizzard is going down the "dont let them get there" path once again as their countermeasure because they have made the game so unstable that they have no clue how to create a unit which allows Terrans to fight this rather strong Broodlord-Infestor combo. Consequently we will have more "dominance of timings" (which is terrible) where players rush for "tactic X" to abuse their momentary lead in power ... so sad.
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The real culprit isnt the Battle Hellion but rather the speed boost to the Medivacs AND the healing for the Battle Hellions. This increases longevity of an already tough unit AND neutralizes the main weakness of it (sluggish movement). There is a roleplaying game - Champions - where you can get "bonus points" at character creation if you take disadvantages and they have a maxim: "A disadvantage which isnt a disadvantage isnt a disadvantage (and thus worth no points)". Blizzard should really keep this in mind when designing their units, because anything that clearly neutralizes a disadvantage will boost the power of that unit considerably ... and part of that power is justified by that disadvantage.
Really terrible change, but it is only one among many terrible design / balancing decisions, so no biggie ...
Well this is a well needed change. I think still being able to drop four hellions in a good thing to keep. It does give the opponent more time to react.
I would like to address the Terrans that pointed out the fact that this nerff came fast. It did, now this isn't a game changing nerff, it forces terrans to either use one medvac and just have less hellbats, or use two medvacs. Using two medvacs makes the cost effectiveness of these drops go down because of the extra 100 100 that is put into the drop (obviously). But this nerff doesn't make the hellbat any less cost-effective of a unit. Honestly, I feel that blizzard is just trying to silence the horde of people complaining about the hellbat. Just keep in mind that the hellbat is still the same drone roasting, sexy, firery, wanabee firebat, unit it was before this patch.
This isn't a very elegant solution. They should remove battle hellion heal which already isn't an elegant feature anyway. Balance should come with consistency. Medivac healing stuff from factory. That is not consistent. Any transport ship can take four two-supply-units, except battle hellions. That is not consistent. Not elegant solution at all.
On a sidenote: the Sporecrawler getting + to bio isn't elegant either.
On February 14 2013 18:39 jackasc wrote: This isn't a very elegant solution. They should remove battle hellion heal which already isn't an elegant feature anyway. Balance should come with consistency. Medivac healing stuff from factory. That is not consistent. Any transport ship can take four two-supply-units, except battle hellions. That is not consistent. Not elegant solution at all.
On a sidenote: the Sporecrawler getting + to bio isn't elegant either.
What's wrong with spore crawler + damage to bio?
It makes sense.. at least.
Hellbats being biological is the dumbest shit however. It's not as if it's gonna be used in TvP with bio anyways.
I think it's a reasonable change. I've seen it takes way too long for Protoss to get rid of those Hellbats in the mineral line, even when being there already with units. They just are too tanky and 4 of them just shred a mineral line. So despite all the people bashing on this change I think it's for the better. Efficient worker harassers should generally be fragile otherwise they become a problem, which was proven by Hellbat drops I'd say. They are not fragile in the slightest but just rape workers.
On February 14 2013 18:39 jackasc wrote: [...]
Hellbats being biological is the dumbest shit however. It's not as if it's gonna be used in TvP with bio anyways.
You may want to check out MKP vs Seed, MKP used Hellbats together with Bio and it worked really well vs Chargelots.
Oh so, how about this.. REMOVE Medivac speed boost.. it is a broken mechanic. Replace it with giving battlecruisers ability to teleport short distances.. Like hyperspace or some shit.. Battlecruisers are only viable in late game TvT and this is sad. with HYPERAWESOMEGOSUx2BOOST. (upgradable from the fusion core and costs 100 energy) This way Terrans actually have a reason to look forward to the late game in all matchups instead of feeling the need to cheese every goddamn match.
/rant.
This started off as a troll post but after some thought this is not a bad idea.. David, I know your reading this, sort it out son!
Edit: Battlecruisers are slow as hell and in TvT/Z/P there biggest weakness is that everyunit that can shoot them is also able to chase them down.. With this upgrade they can atleast escape back to the turtle homeland that is the terran base.
On February 14 2013 18:02 Rabiator wrote: CAUSE and EFFECT
Starting point: Zerg have a pretty powerful and easy to use combo with their Broodlord-Infestor combination. Terran basically have one choice to battle this - with a decent chance of success - and that is the "dont let them get there" strategy. This is sad, because there should be a battle of equal forces where the more skilled player wins in an army vs. army battle. A direct confrontation only has a slim chance of success due to the overwhelming productivity of Zerg, which can whittle down Terran forces that arent as easily reproduced.
Their solution to this is to give Terrans even more "dont let them get there"-power by adding a speed boost to Medivacs and letting Battle Hellions be healed by those same Medivacs. Obviously players are using this tactic and it gives terrans a pretty strong harrassment capability with even fewer units than a Medivac filled with Marines. Consequently you can do "drop micro" like they used to in that other game with that Protoss unit. It turns out to be powerful and since players cant be expected to build turrets / spore crawlers / photon cannons to cover the potential entry points into their bases they cleverly decide to just reduce the number of Battle Hellions carried by a Medivac.
Sooo ... Blizzard is going down the "dont let them get there" path once again as their countermeasure because they have made the game so unstable that they have no clue how to create a unit which allows Terrans to fight this rather strong Broodlord-Infestor combo. Consequently we will have more "dominance of timings" (which is terrible) where players rush for "tactic X" to abuse their momentary lead in power ... so sad.
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The real culprit isnt the Battle Hellion but rather the speed boost to the Medivacs AND the healing for the Battle Hellions. This increases longevity of an already tough unit AND neutralizes the main weakness of it (sluggish movement). There is a roleplaying game - Champions - where you can get "bonus points" at character creation if you take disadvantages and they have a maxim: "A disadvantage which isnt a disadvantage isnt a disadvantage (and thus worth no points)". Blizzard should really keep this in mind when designing their units, because anything that clearly neutralizes a disadvantage will boost the power of that unit considerably ... and part of that power is justified by that disadvantage.
Really terrible change, but it is only one among many terrible design / balancing decisions, so no biggie ...
Sorry but you do not realize that a medivac doesn't get hurt by spores(unless you put 10 in your base in which case you lost the game) since he moves so fast. It was clearly imbalanced because fleeing with your drones was not even enough. Also T still can use hellbats in direct fights (they aren't even bad vs roaches) or simply go mine+bio to contain zerg. There are many ways to prevent Z from getting to the WoL deathball. Not to mention thors are now better vs broodlords. You act like every Z/P (or T who is defending battle hellion drops) is stupid by saying "since players cant be expected to build turrets / spore crawlers / photon cannons to cover the potential entry points". Yesterday I've seen a game of Dragon vs DRG. Dragon went for double hellbat drop and drg had 3 queens and like 7-8 roaches to face that. The queens were in beautiful position and sniper the medivacs pretty quickly but still his army got destroyed and even lost some workers before fending off the drop completely.
My lore idea for the bio-tag is: Originally Conceived by The mad genius mechanic, Hanzo Ottowa, Hellions are field rigged with SCV frame technology using their protective underbelly originally designed to protect the driver from flying debris in high speed off-road travel as a shield.
The obvious drawback is that the hellbat is now a giant SCV with shields for arms. Not that it's a bad thing if the bad guys are charging winged zerglings out for your blood.
So we can't have decent units like the defiller because spells like dark swarm are too complicated, but a unit that becomes biological, can't go into bunkers, can be healed and repaired, doesn't get a different visual from blue flame and magically takes up double the space in a medivac is cool?
It's so sad to see them "fix" their broken design, I love how they developed the warhound for 2 years, scraped it after community morons (who most of didn't even have a beta key) whined for a week, yet they keep trying to make their stupid hellbat design work...
On February 14 2013 21:01 Lorch wrote: So we can't have decent units like the defiller because spells like dark swarm are too complicated, but a unit that becomes biological, can't go into bunkers, can be healed and repaired, doesn't get a different visual from blue flame and magically takes up double the space in a medivac is cool?
It's so sad to see them "fix" their broken design, I love how they developed the warhound for 2 years, scraped it after community morons (who most of didn't even have a beta key) whined for a week, yet they keep trying to make their stupid hellbat design work...
blueflame does not change its damage. Which us why it does not go blue.
On February 14 2013 21:01 Lorch wrote: So we can't have decent units like the defiller because spells like dark swarm are too complicated, but a unit that becomes biological, can't go into bunkers, can be healed and repaired, doesn't get a different visual from blue flame and magically takes up double the space in a medivac is cool?
It's so sad to see them "fix" their broken design, I love how they developed the warhound for 2 years, scraped it after community morons (who most of didn't even have a beta key) whined for a week, yet they keep trying to make their stupid hellbat design work...
blueflame does not change its damage. Which us why it does not go blue.
Which makes sense how? Does the flame magically become worse as it transforms? Hellbat is probably the most complicated unit in the history of starcraft.
Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
No, that would be unfair.The medivacs are likely to have no energy after a fight. Protoss can recall, and zerg can retreat through nydus... Oh wait, they can't. I think the nitro boost should be an upgrade you would have to research in techlab/fusion core. That would make the medivac usefull in lategame harass, for countering like when the zerg contains with swarm hosts, or at leat delay the rush and prevent a BBQ.
Another very important thing is that you can build hellions before you have an armory. You can start producing them much much earlier.
If you want to compare hellbat tech to colossus and carriers, then think about how fun it would be if you could instantly transform 3 stalkers into a colossus once you have a robotics factory. - thats the tech level your talking about
aside from that. These are 2 completely different races-.
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
No, that would be unfair.The medivacs are likely to have no energy after a fight. Protoss can recall, and zerg can retreat through nydus... Oh wait, they can't. I think the nitro boost should be an upgrade you would have to research in techlab/fusion core. That would make the medivac usefull in lategame harass, for countering like when the zerg contains with swarm hosts, or at leat delay the rush and prevent a BBQ.
That's the point. I think you are not supposed to have boost right after fight.
Medivacs are nearly impossible to catch if you have no air units.
On February 14 2013 21:27 ALPINA wrote: That's the point. I think you are not supposed to have boost right after fight.
Medivacs are nearly impossible to catch if you have no air units.
That is what I was implying, but is just as crazy as recall. On the other hand, I would not see the point of boost if it were not for saving units / medivacs. Maybe the hellbat is the problem and not the boost. What is the purpose of this unit? Harass? Terran already has the helion and the banshee for that (since the reaper is more like a scouting unit at this point). Clearly, the Hellbat should counter something while doing AOE. As it can also be healed, I assume that Bli²²ard wants the hellbat in frontline supporting a bioball vs swarm hosts or broodlords. So there is pretty much no point of beeing able to have this unit that early in the game.
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
That could work out nicely if Caduceus Reactor was changed to be 50+ maximum energy instead of +25 starting energy.
It's not the uncommon for Medivacs to have more than 50% of their energy if the game is passive, sometimes they have 100%.
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
I think it would be significantly better form a design perspective to make Medivac thrusters an upgrade at the Tech Lab so Terrans actually have a reason to build a Tech Lab and research Medivac thrusters instead of just building a Reactor for double Medivac production as it is.
Medivac thrusters is a cool and skillfull ability, but the fact that Terran units are just receiving very significant buffs to their units for free really needs to stop, just handing out free Medivac thrusters, Siege Tech and Hellbats at the Armory like candy is overpowering and dumbing down the race as a whole. I mean why should Zerg receive necessary buffs to Hydralisks in the form of an upgrade in order to make them useful while Terrans are receiving unecessary buffs to already effective units for free? All of these hand outs to Terrans have really imbalanced TvZ in the early game, the match up is no where near as fun in HOTS up to the 10 minute mark as it use to be.
On February 14 2013 21:10 ALPINA wrote: Good solution for medivac i heard is make speed boost cost energy - 25 or 50 per cast. That means that terran can no longer abuse speed so much, especially after failed attack loading whole army into medivacs and in 5 seconds flying into main and killing everything.
That could work out nicely if Caduceus Reactor was changed to be 50+ maximum energy instead of +25 starting energy.
It's not the uncommon for Medivacs to have more than 50% of their energy if the game is passive, sometimes they have 100%.
It would also let you easily burn energy so your drop is not stopped/weakened by feedback when dropping against protoss.
Completely ridiculous change, singling out one particular tactic in an unstable metagame and nerfing it in a gimmicky way.
You have a hellion, it gets an upgrade to change its flame to blue flame and gets a damage bonus. Then you change this same hellion into a hellbat and it loses its blue flame and damage bonus. Or you have a hellion and you put four of them in a medivac. Then in the course of fighting you end up changing them to hellbat mode and now only two of them can fit in a medivac. And then you can heal them because now they're biological.
Two years into the game we are going to look at the hellbat and we are going to wonder about all these strange, arbitrary limits and the answer would be: "well, in beta patch #13 hellbat drops were too strong" - even if at this point the hellbat probably has different stats, different uses etc. There is nothing unique about hellbats that has it conceptually make sense for only two to fit in a medivac. It's largely the same unit as a hellion still. They are a 100m 2s generic combat unit, why is this unit singled out to take up more cargo out of all the other combat units?
I guess the main problem is the synergy between hellbats and medivacs with speed boosts, but that doesn't only go for hellbats. Next, widow mines with 1s burrow time are going to be used to clear out mineral lines, and maybe then Blizzard will decide to only allow two widow mines in a medivac. And yes, widow mines with 1s burrow come later in the game, so it might be okay, but the same logic would hold for turning the medivac speed boost into an upgrade.
Secondly, the hellbat is too strong in general, one of the issues is that you can just drop them and forget about them, because they are cost efficient vs so many armies, and the splash kills workers in the meantime. How about changing the (silly) biological tag instead? Or nerfing the stats of the hellbat?
And maybe another problem is that you can constantly speed boost your medivac at no cost. Fly to one base, by the time any army gets there, pick up and zoom to the next base, then keep repeating this because the cooldown is so short.
i guess you can rearrange your bo so you will have a reactor ready for your starport and come with 2 medivacs with hellbats 0-30 seconds later than what it is already...
4 hellion in medivac and transform into hellbats would be pointless. It's already way too easy to simply move your workers out of the mineral line, with the extra time to transform, you'll be lucky to get even a few kills. You'll be better off dropping minerals because hellbats move extremely slow. what makes the hellbat drop powerful is the medivac micro.
On February 14 2013 08:54 Integra wrote: I still remember the stream of EGDemuslim where he saw the hellbat drop miles away, put down bunkers and all kinds of shit to stop the drop, the drop happened and Demuslim stil lost more than the other Terran lol.
because he was going 1 rack expand every game with extra barrack after. you need 2 widow mine or a bunker in the mineral line. play the damn meta game. you cant expect to beat hellbat drops with a couple marines and marauders and not lose any workers.
Oh good, now Terrans will have to click once more to kill my entire mineral line
Edit: actually took the time to read through everyone's comments while my stomach tries to kill me.
Is everyone here talking based on pure theory? If you've played the beta, the problem is not "oh, it's too strong because BH's can get healed" or "Oh, you're just not reacting to it properly, no excuse to not be prepared."
For ZvT at least, the problem is that even if you know it's coming, you can't stop it, unless you plan to have a build based around having 7 queens/spores at each mineral line. The medivac boost means that the medivac can drop the BH's before it goes down to standard base defenses (1, maybe 2 spores and a queen), and even if the medivac dies, the BH's kill the drones in 2 shots, which the speed boost can guarantee you get because of how far you can opt to spread them apart. And Zerg have no unit to deal with it as early as they can come. Queens/lings? Nope. Banes? Nope, too much BH hp, and they'll either be spread out enough that you don't get the splash or they'll bunch up and kill them with group fire. Roaches? Not even then, BH's deal so much damage to them it doesn't even matter, you're losing gas units to a unit that only costs minerals (imagine if a marine easily won a 1 on 1 vs a stalker, it feels like that), and the range on the roach isn't really that much greater than the Bh arc, so kiting isn't really a thing you can count on.
The only other build I can think to try is (obviously after scouting this build) is to go lair first and rush hydras with range, but something tells me that hydras vs a unit that does extras vs light units may not pan out well, but it's all I can think of.
Maybe roaches can kill off just 2, definitely gonna give blizzard that, but that'll be small comfort to kill 200 mins worth of resources in a trade for a whole mineral line and probably a roach or two as well
This seems a little sudden. I get the idea that beta is for testing, and balance is certainly something that should be refined...but when new, dominant strategies emerge, there needs to be a little time for players to "figure it out" before changes should be made.
I really think this strat was only an issue in TvT, anyway. Seems to me a lot of the people complaining about drops in TvZ or TvP are struggling with drops in general, not hellbat drops. 8 marines kill workers fast, too. Nothing new there.
Admittedly, I am a terran player. I think a better tweak balance-wise to test would have been to delay the hellbat drop slightly by means of making the transformation an upgrade again.
They should have left this longer...Blizzard cave in to pressure when it comes to balance far too often and it usually causes larger issues further down the line.
Another weird patch to fix the symptoms of bad balance.
I think they know that the hellions are not well balanced but since mmm are already so imba and pure mech so risky, they need to keep the hellbats so strong or terrans would not use them at all lol.
Still this strangely weird kind of patching up things always leaves a bad taste. Same as with the +35 vs shields fix for the mine and the + 15 bio for the spore.
I mean who the hell comes up with thos ideas? Always make the smallest possible changes no matter how dumb and boring they make the game - all for the sake of (seeming) balance?
Rather make the game fun and imba now and let it be fun and balanced later then make it balanced now but boring, illogical and with such limited playstyles forced upon the races.
Very surprised and disappointed that blizzard is already nerfing this strategy. I have never used this strategy more than a few times and am top 25-top 50 in my beta masters div as terran race picking and as random some games. In tvt, i have lost to this about 1/4 of the time as i have just blindly won instantly against it. If you go a normal cloak banshee , you have 6 marines + a banshee at home to defend, and a banshee in his mineral line. I feel that players are playing blind and responding badly to the strange economy scenarios this build creates (one guy has many probes, loses a lot, the other guy hasn't been making them becuase he's going one base battle hellions)
What i hope is that i'm just tougher on average than the normal player, and don't QQ instantly about something i find difficult or unfair,
But what i think is that blizzard is just resetting their old school sc2 balancing precedent and nerfing "OP terran" once the Z/P community comes together and is upset by it. While yes, if you watch even the pro player HOTS games, they use this strategy a lot, but is it any different than cloaked banshee? if you have no scan, you lose. just like if you have no units in position, you lose. it doesn't make sense to me that this long tech rush that takes armory tech to get to can be so much trouble for players - what have they been doing the entire game? When i tried this build last couple days before it was nerfed, i was laughing really hard at my opponents. They'd cry imba and say hellbat OP, etc. Meanwhile, i am starting my FIRST expansion at 9 min, am only slightly ahead in workers and he holds it off with two forges spinning and a robotics building. Something is wrong with our community if strategies that don't allow your opponent to go blindly (i mean, BLINDLY) into double upgrades + tech + a stronger econ while easily having the resources for enough stalkers to kill this, are "OP" and things like this are nerfed so quickly.
Next it's ignite afterburners, calling it now. I really don't hope so, but we will be playing wings of liberty + mines soon if blizzard keeps listening to QQ. Almost every terran change so far in the beta has been reconsidered by blizzard and now that terrans are looking strong even as a random player i'm starting to get vibes that this is about 1 out of the next 5 patches that will all take more and more fun from the terran race. Just my two cents
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
I'm pretty happy with this in general. Seriously like 3 of every 5 games would have hellbat drops in the first 10 minutes which usually ends up in someone being crippled, even at high levels. I mean this change is kind of funky considering they're no bigger than stalkers and you can fit 4 in a transport, but meh, but balance-wise I like it.
Every patch with nerf SC2 dies a little bit, I mean nerf makes the game looks more plain and boring. Technically this patch is good for balance (no more OP helion drops) but right now a month before the release date the tech tree and units is a mess.
I mean: damage only vs shields (why not damage vs protoss directly so nobody can be confused)? no tank research? no HSM research? 2 hb per mediback instead 4? Instead making a good overall desing they are just covering holes with duct tape. What will be next? Marines do extra damage to armor but only if hardened shield is activated so they can counter better inmortal pushes?
This is just a beta and maybe PRO players will surprise us in the next months with new and funny tactics but rigth now HOTS is almost the same as WOL: just 3-4 winnig BO for each race, if you scout at X and see gas you can predict when is going to be the attack, which units and almost where is going to be. In a short time watching HOTS pro games will be as boring as some WOL games.
On February 14 2013 23:43 Freeborn wrote: Another weird patch to fix the symptoms of bad balance.
I think they know that the hellions are not well balanced but since mmm are already so imba and pure mech so risky, they need to keep the hellbats so strong or terrans would not use them at all lol.
Still this strangely weird kind of patching up things always leaves a bad taste. Same as with the +35 vs shields fix for the mine and the + 15 bio for the spore.
I mean who the hell comes up with thos ideas? Always make the smallest possible changes no matter how dumb and boring they make the game - all for the sake of (seeming) balance?
Rather make the game fun and imba now and let it be fun and balanced later then make it balanced now but boring, illogical and with such limited playstyles forced upon the races.
MMM is imbalanced now? My friends in bronze league are always telling me that, I guess they were right.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
Personally I have not been playing much HOTS so I don't know what to think about the change. As it's still in beta, it makes sense to change it frequently. Like I said, I haven't played much so I don't know about the transform times, but couldn't you put the hellions in the medivac and transform after unloading?
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
How many time to nerf 1 supply roach ? How many terran even tried to make ghost vs pre-nerf infestor ? Think about what happened earlier before feeling "discriminated"
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
Remember the good old times when a single EMP removed all the shields and energy from an entire protoss army. What are you supposed to do except whine. Sometimes it's fairly obvious if things are broken
On February 15 2013 00:21 drkcid wrote: Every patch with nerf SC2 dies a little bit, I mean nerf makes the game looks more plain and boring. Technically this patch is good for balance (no more OP helion drops) but right now a month before the release date the tech tree and units is a mess.
So everyone loosing to hell bat drops does not sound boring to you? You can still go for the drop, but you will not get an instant win out of it. Is that so bad? Besides, hell bat drop ist just like dropping helions on lined up workers. Just a little too strong.
On February 15 2013 00:21 drkcid wrote: I mean: damage only vs shields (why not damage vs protoss directly so nobody can be confused)? no tank research? no HSM research?
No tank / HSM ? Doesn't that give you more opportunities and makes the game less boring?
Stop complaining just for the purpose of complaining... HotS is gonna be AWESOME!
On February 15 2013 01:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: Wow, that solves the problem. One more medivac and it is the same. Problem solved for the duration of medivac build time. Not.
It's the same, but a) it will require even more investment and b) it'll come later.
You nerf it's damage, then all that'll happen is they'll lose all usability in TvP or even TvZ apart from against zerglings or zealots, they already get owned pretty hard by AOE.
Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
I don't see how this changes things. If you can put 4 helions in and drop them and transform. I am assuming this is just hellbat only. With booster rockets you fly in drop em in you will get worker kills still aand once you transform they still are hellbats. Don't get me wrong as a Terran i like this beefy unit. But I still think protoss needs to be adjusted. Game won't be ready in march thats for sure lol.
On February 15 2013 01:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: Wow, that solves the problem. One more medivac and it is the same. Problem solved for the duration of medivac build time. Not.
It's the same, but a) it will require even more investment and b) it'll come later.
You nerf it's damage, then all that'll happen is they'll lose all usability in TvP or even TvZ apart from against zerglings or zealots, they already get owned pretty hard by AOE.
Problem isnt the damage. Problem is the cost. There should be an upgrade with heavy gas cost in it for this to be fair, even if it fast upgrade like 20 sec. Or the additional cost to transform similar as banelings.
On February 15 2013 00:21 drkcid wrote: Every patch with nerf SC2 dies a little bit, I mean nerf makes the game looks more plain and boring. Technically this patch is good for balance (no more OP helion drops) but right now a month before the release date the tech tree and units is a mess.
So everyone loosing to hell bat drops does not sound boring to you? You can still go for the drop, but you will not get an instant win out of it. Is that so bad? Besides, hell bat drop ist just like dropping helions on lined up workers. Just a little too strong.
On February 15 2013 00:21 drkcid wrote: I mean: damage only vs shields (why not damage vs protoss directly so nobody can be confused)? no tank research? no HSM research?
No tank / HSM ? Doesn't that give you more opportunities and makes the game less boring?
Stop complaining just for the purpose of complaining... HotS is gonna be AWESOME!
Im not complainig about this particular nerf, I just worried about how will be HOTS in a few months. I really beliebe that nerfs, in most cases, makes units that could potentially add variety to the game, useless or under used, because the players will rely on common (too common ) and effective strategies.
About researches: I think is a lost opportunity to balance the game using timing.
On February 15 2013 01:31 Serimek wrote: Will be interesting to see if players start to do 4 hellions-drops into hellbats carnage or choose to do 4 hellions drops or 2 hellbats drops...
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
Remember the good old times when a single EMP removed all the shields and energy from an entire protoss army. What are you supposed to do except whine. Sometimes it's fairly obvious if things are broken
Sometimes, it's not so obvious. Like marauders being "so op they counter all protoss ground units" (paraphrased whine circa 2010). Meanwhile, professional and amateur protoss alike scratch their heads and warp in only stalkers. Now, even though the majority of the community at that point in time would have said, yes marauders are slightly too strong against protoss with concussive shells, they are not made in stupid numbers anymore and you can lose battles to chargelot/anything simply by having too many marauders
But sometimes it is obvious, you're right. Like when the winrates show protoss lagging bbehind for most of early Sc2, or infestors being too strong, in almost every game and inflating zerg to 60%+ in korea for over a year. they were, and were nerfed. Rightly so, but it took a while. The battle hellion has been out in it's current form for like one month tops, and the whine has already gotten it nerfed. There isn't even a developed pro scene to base these changes on, nothing but ridiculous whine. Keep pretending like every race is treated fairly, becuase that is what you have to do to actually have this conclusion about blizzard. They do not kneejerk nerf any race except terran, that is only my point. And that this build was easy/didnt even need to be changed, players just have to start positioning correctly and not playing so "greedy."
really i have no idea how people can still think that punishing terran for imbalances they didn't intend to abuse in 2010 can be relevant to balance decision making in a beta phase for a game in 2013, but hey it's the internet. People can use retarded logic, but as long as they rabblerabblerabble together, blizzard has to consider it. now we have had multiple retarded patches in a row, and everyone loves it because they no longer have to deviate from their 1rax/1gate/15h FE builds, where they immediately go for double upgrades and produce no units build
edit: please tell me, what is so obvious about this change that it had to be done? 8 min:30 seconds, you have 1 medivac, and 4 units with 125(?) hp, with 2 range, that are slower than all your units?
On February 15 2013 01:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: Wow, that solves the problem. One more medivac and it is the same. Problem solved for the duration of medivac build time. Not.
It's the same, but a) it will require even more investment and b) it'll come later.
You nerf it's damage, then all that'll happen is they'll lose all usability in TvP or even TvZ apart from against zerglings or zealots, they already get owned pretty hard by AOE.
Problem isnt the damage. Problem is the cost. There should be an upgrade with heavy gas cost in it for this to be fair, even if it fast upgrade like 20 sec. Or the additional cost to transform similar as banelings.
Looks like blizzard is against upgrades, seeing how they removed the research upgrade for HSM, siege mode or hallucination in HotS. On top of that, the new casters, like MSC, Oracle or Viper all spawn with 3 abilities available :/ I really would like to hear the reasoning behind that, because I really hate that idea.
On February 15 2013 01:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: Wow, that solves the problem. One more medivac and it is the same. Problem solved for the duration of medivac build time. Not.
It's the same, but a) it will require even more investment and b) it'll come later.
You nerf it's damage, then all that'll happen is they'll lose all usability in TvP or even TvZ apart from against zerglings or zealots, they already get owned pretty hard by AOE.
Problem isnt the damage. Problem is the cost. There should be an upgrade with heavy gas cost in it for this to be fair, even if it fast upgrade like 20 sec. Or the additional cost to transform similar as banelings.
Looks like blizzard is against upgrades, seeing how they removed the research upgrade for HSM, siege mode or hallucination in HotS. On top of that, the new casters, like MSC, Oracle or Viper all spawn with 3 abilities available :/ I really would like to hear the reasoning behind that, because I really hate that idea.
Remember when people were complaining there were too many upgrades in WoL? Yeah, Blizz likes to take things to extremes. Standard medivacs were hard to use for drops if your opponent was well prepared but somewhere there is an opening. Skill was where these drops could hit and how much damage you could do with them. But now it seems like drops are disproportinately easy compared to no speed medivacs and the defense is super hard. Its flipped to the other extreme now from impossible to drop a well defended position, to hard to defend any position.
6 medivacs of bio boosting into your base is stupid to deal with tbh.
On February 15 2013 01:16 NightOfTheDead wrote: Wow, that solves the problem. One more medivac and it is the same. Problem solved for the duration of medivac build time. Not.
It's the same, but a) it will require even more investment and b) it'll come later.
You nerf it's damage, then all that'll happen is they'll lose all usability in TvP or even TvZ apart from against zerglings or zealots, they already get owned pretty hard by AOE.
Problem isnt the damage. Problem is the cost. There should be an upgrade with heavy gas cost in it for this to be fair, even if it fast upgrade like 20 sec. Or the additional cost to transform similar as banelings.
Looks like blizzard is against upgrades, seeing how they removed the research upgrade for HSM, siege mode or hallucination in HotS. On top of that, the new casters, like MSC, Oracle or Viper all spawn with 3 abilities available :/ I really would like to hear the reasoning behind that, because I really hate that idea.
I do like the siege mode for tanks upgrade removed it does help out a ton if a player is going for some sort of all in against you. The HSM I have benefited from it, but I don't really make them that often unless I need some detection, or help vs a ton of broodlord/corruptors. I hate the MSC and ORacle, they are sooooooooo not fair lol. Viper not so much, so far I have lost a few tanks to them, but I have been using hellbat+bio+medivac and tear up zerg in the midgame.
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
Remember the good old times when a single EMP removed all the shields and energy from an entire protoss army. What are you supposed to do except whine. Sometimes it's fairly obvious if things are broken
Sometimes, it's not so obvious. Like marauders being "so op they counter all protoss ground units" (paraphrased whine circa 2010). Meanwhile, professional and amateur protoss alike scratch their heads and warp in only stalkers. Now, even though the majority of the community at that point in time would have said, yes marauders are slightly too strong against protoss with concussive shells, they are not made in stupid numbers anymore and you can lose battles to chargelot/anything simply by having too many marauders
But sometimes it is obvious, you're right. Like when the winrates show protoss lagging bbehind for most of early Sc2, or infestors being too strong, in almost every game and inflating zerg to 60%+ in korea for over a year. they were, and were nerfed. Rightly so, but it took a while. The battle hellion has been out in it's current form for like one month tops, and the whine has already gotten it nerfed. There isn't even a developed pro scene to base these changes on, nothing but ridiculous whine. Keep pretending like every race is treated fairly, becuase that is what you have to do to actually have this conclusion about blizzard. They do not kneejerk nerf any race except terran, that is only my point. And that this build was easy/didnt even need to be changed, players just have to start positioning correctly and not playing so "greedy."
really i have no idea how people can still think that punishing terran for imbalances they didn't intend to abuse in 2010 can be relevant to balance decision making in a beta phase for a game in 2013, but hey it's the internet. People can use retarded logic, but as long as they rabblerabblerabble together, blizzard has to consider it. now we have had multiple retarded patches in a row, and everyone loves it because they no longer have to deviate from their 1rax/1gate/15h FE builds, where they immediately go for double upgrades and produce no units build
edit: please tell me, what is so obvious about this change that it had to be done? 8 min:30 seconds, you have 1 medivac, and 4 units with 125(?) hp, with 2 range, that are slower than all your units?
On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote: REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining...
so your problem is not that it wasn't imbalanced, your problem is that it got nerfed too fast and you could not abuse it enough? Loool.
no it's that as terrans, sometimes we feel discriminated against when something we like gets nerfed, the other races made no attempt to adapt to it besides crying harder, and our QQ about units that are blatantly OP survive for a year in the metagame before blizzard even realizes people are making more than 6 of them per game (infestor, in case youre extremely dense)
Remember the good old times when a single EMP removed all the shields and energy from an entire protoss army. What are you supposed to do except whine. Sometimes it's fairly obvious if things are broken
Sometimes, it's not so obvious. Like marauders being "so op they counter all protoss ground units" (paraphrased whine circa 2010). Meanwhile, professional and amateur protoss alike scratch their heads and warp in only stalkers. Now, even though the majority of the community at that point in time would have said, yes marauders are slightly too strong against protoss with concussive shells, they are not made in stupid numbers anymore and you can lose battles to chargelot/anything simply by having too many marauders
But sometimes it is obvious, you're right. Like when the winrates show protoss lagging bbehind for most of early Sc2, or infestors being too strong, in almost every game and inflating zerg to 60%+ in korea for over a year. they were, and were nerfed. Rightly so, but it took a while. The battle hellion has been out in it's current form for like one month tops, and the whine has already gotten it nerfed. There isn't even a developed pro scene to base these changes on, nothing but ridiculous whine. Keep pretending like every race is treated fairly, becuase that is what you have to do to actually have this conclusion about blizzard. They do not kneejerk nerf any race except terran, that is only my point. And that this build was easy/didnt even need to be changed, players just have to start positioning correctly and not playing so "greedy."
really i have no idea how people can still think that punishing terran for imbalances they didn't intend to abuse in 2010 can be relevant to balance decision making in a beta phase for a game in 2013, but hey it's the internet. People can use retarded logic, but as long as they rabblerabblerabble together, blizzard has to consider it. now we have had multiple retarded patches in a row, and everyone loves it because they no longer have to deviate from their 1rax/1gate/15h FE builds, where they immediately go for double upgrades and produce no units build
edit: please tell me, what is so obvious about this change that it had to be done? 8 min:30 seconds, you have 1 medivac, and 4 units with 125(?) hp, with 2 range, that are slower than all your units?
When Z/P are having easy games vs T for so long it is no wonder they will whine as soon as T has anything remotely good. Regarding the patch change I don't really care since it really ruined TvT for me. However, Hellbat drop is imo only an issue in the TvT matchup, meanwhile one oracle killing 5 rines by itself will be left untouched.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
On February 15 2013 01:40 c0sm0naut wrote: edit: please tell me, what is so obvious about this change that it had to be done? 8 min:30 seconds, you have 1 medivac, and 4 units with 125(?) hp, with 2 range, that are slower than all your units?
1-base hellbat drop openings could hit at 6:30-6:45. At 7:15-7:30 you can have 2 medivacs with 8 units with 125 hp, 2 range, and that can be transported and dropped right on top of enemy units using medivac speed.
Hellbats weren't the obvious problem, and medivac speed wasn't an obvious problem, but the combination of hellbats + medivac speed were an obvious problem. That's what Blizzard nerfed.
On February 15 2013 01:22 HeeroFX wrote: I don't see how this changes things. If you can put 4 helions in and drop them and transform. I am assuming this is just hellbat only. With booster rockets you fly in drop em in you will get worker kills still aand once you transform they still are hellbats. Don't get me wrong as a Terran i like this beefy unit. But I still think protoss needs to be adjusted. Game won't be ready in march thats for sure lol.
This shit is not nearly as powerful if you can't drop your hellbats on top of things to kill. It gives you way more time to react to keep your harvesters safe and micro (like, kiting) your own attacking units.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
On February 15 2013 01:40 c0sm0naut wrote: edit: please tell me, what is so obvious about this change that it had to be done? 8 min:30 seconds, you have 1 medivac, and 4 units with 125(?) hp, with 2 range, that are slower than all your units?
1-base hellbat drop openings could hit at 6:30-6:45. At 7:15-7:30 you can have 2 medivacs with 8 units with 125 hp, 2 range, and that can be transported and dropped right on top of enemy units using medivac speed.
Hellbats weren't the obvious problem, and medivac speed wasn't an obvious problem, but the combination of hellbats + medivac speed were an obvious problem. That's what Blizzard nerfed.
Its called scouting and adapting. The build you described is super easy to spot and prepare for, as well as being extremely all in. Stop pressing S+D and make actual units + spines and it is easily defended. After which you are super ahead and Terran might as well leave. Apparently not able to make 80 drones ASAP is an obvious problem for zerg players
I don't think most people have a problem with them nerfing it so quickly. I think most people's problem with blizzard is their complete lack of consistency when it comes to balancing the races.
If Terran ever gets anything good, it's immediately nerfed and Terrans must "figure out how to play."
Whereas you still have shit in the game like oracle freewins, free stalker/zealot/mothership core pokes, and other things that are not equally nerfed like hellbats were.
Hellbat drop nerfed? That's fine, but show some consistency. You cannot just touch Terran's "op shit" and then leave oracles that kill 10 workers in less than 3 seconds alone too.
That is a problem. Z/P's complain loud enough, and Terran is nerfed. Terran complains and it takes over a year for the infestor to even be considered for nerfs lol.
Consistency blizzard is all we ask. You balanced hellbat drops, now do the same goddamn thing to oracles. Having a worker line bursted down or build order win / losses is not fun for any race.
There has been a proven history that if it's Terran it's OP, but if it's Zerg/Protoss the Terran has to "learn to handle it." It's pretty disgusting.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
Which new unit would you suggest we use against hellbats drops?
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
Which new unit would you suggest we use against hellbats drops?
I think I got it!
We rush hive while building a stack of spores. get some vipers and then abduct the hellbat drop into the spores before he can unload!
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
They dont, many people are playing roach/hydra/viper and swarm host build, it's garbage Also, thanks for the history lesson but, it's not the subject ? As I said you cant just throw empty word like "Be more creative!" and expect to be taken seriously. If you have a viable build/comp post it. Or else dont post.
I don't think most people have a problem with them nerfing it so quickly. I think most people's problem with blizzard is their complete lack of inconsistency when it comes to balancing the races.
1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
On February 15 2013 02:27 avilo wrote: I don't think most people have a problem with them nerfing it so quickly. I think most people's problem with blizzard is their complete lack of inconsistency when it comes to balancing the races.
If Terran ever gets anything good, it's immediately nerfed and Terrans must "figure out how to play."
Whereas you still have shit in the game like oracle freewins, free stalker/zealot/mothership core pokes, and other things that are not equally nerfed like hellbats were.
Hellbat drop nerfed? That's fine, but show some consistency. You cannot just touch Terran's "op shit" and then leave oracles that kill 10 workers in less than 3 seconds alone too.
That is a problem. Z/P's complain loud enough, and Terran is nerfed. Terran complains and it takes over a year for the infestor to even be considered for nerfs lol.
Consistency blizzard is all we ask. You balanced hellbat drops, now do the same goddamn thing to oracles. Having a worker line bursted down or build order win / losses is not fun for any race.
There has been a proven history that if it's Terran it's OP, but if it's Zerg/Protoss the Terran has to "learn to handle it." It's pretty disgusting.
That is because Oracles are made of candy glass and the dreams of small children and they explode when a viking looks at them. They are super powerful and might be slightly broken, but they can also be stopped dead with fixed anti air. From everything I have heard and played, the Hellbat drop was far more "unstoppable" for people. Blizzard can only focus on one major issue at a time and this was the one everyone was using and winning with.
At the end of the day, we all have some pretty broken stuff in HotS that needs to be pulled back. But it needs to be pulled back correctly so it is still viable, rather than nerfed into the ground. But, I woudl rather Blizzard address once peice of broken crap at a time.
On February 15 2013 02:27 avilo wrote: I don't think most people have a problem with them nerfing it so quickly. I think most people's problem with blizzard is their complete lack of inconsistency when it comes to balancing the races.
If Terran ever gets anything good, it's immediately nerfed and Terrans must "figure out how to play."
Whereas you still have shit in the game like oracle freewins, free stalker/zealot/mothership core pokes, and other things that are not equally nerfed like hellbats were.
Hellbat drop nerfed? That's fine, but show some consistency. You cannot just touch Terran's "op shit" and then leave oracles that kill 10 workers in less than 3 seconds alone too.
That is a problem. Z/P's complain loud enough, and Terran is nerfed. Terran complains and it takes over a year for the infestor to even be considered for nerfs lol.
Consistency blizzard is all we ask. You balanced hellbat drops, now do the same goddamn thing to oracles. Having a worker line bursted down or build order win / losses is not fun for any race.
There has been a proven history that if it's Terran it's OP, but if it's Zerg/Protoss the Terran has to "learn to handle it." It's pretty disgusting.
You're pathetic.
And the biggest whining about Hellbat drops was in regards to TvT.
Now Hellbat drops are still viable and can absolutely do damage/punish an unprepared player, but they won't do fairly rapid game-ending damage.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
i watched DRGs stream a little yesterday and he lost to DeMuslim (lol) due to such shananigans. The Drop is really strong, the follow up (3 medivacs, mass HB and a few Marauders) looks also borderline OP.
I expect quite a few nerfs 1 month after hots is released.
On February 15 2013 02:27 avilo wrote: I don't think most people have a problem with them nerfing it so quickly. I think most people's problem with blizzard is their complete lack of inconsistency when it comes to balancing the races.
If Terran ever gets anything good, it's immediately nerfed and Terrans must "figure out how to play."
Whereas you still have shit in the game like oracle freewins, free stalker/zealot/mothership core pokes, and other things that are not equally nerfed like hellbats were.
Hellbat drop nerfed? That's fine, but show some consistency. You cannot just touch Terran's "op shit" and then leave oracles that kill 10 workers in less than 3 seconds alone too.
That is a problem. Z/P's complain loud enough, and Terran is nerfed. Terran complains and it takes over a year for the infestor to even be considered for nerfs lol.
Consistency blizzard is all we ask. You balanced hellbat drops, now do the same goddamn thing to oracles. Having a worker line bursted down or build order win / losses is not fun for any race.
There has been a proven history that if it's Terran it's OP, but if it's Zerg/Protoss the Terran has to "learn to handle it." It's pretty disgusting.
That is because Oracles are made of candy glass and the dreams of small children and they explode when a viking looks at them. They are super powerful and might be slightly broken, but they can also be stopped dead with fixed anti air. From everything I have heard and played, the Hellbat drop was far more "unstoppable" for people. Blizzard can only focus on one major issue at a time and this was the one everyone was using and winning with.
At the end of the day, we all have some pretty broken stuff in HotS that needs to be pulled back. But it needs to be pulled back correctly so it is still viable, rather than nerfed into the ground. But, I woudl rather Blizzard address once peice of broken crap at a time.
The funniest thing is that after the update #13, Widow Mines one-shot Oracles again. Unit that is 75/25/2 one-shots unit that is 150/150/3, without you even losing it. And they can't wait for Oracle to have energy for Envision, or for the Observer, so it is a gamble for them to attack your workers. And after that, you can have like 1-2 Missile Turrets per base anyway, and Oracles can't do a thing if there aren't 3+ of them.
But hey, that is Avilo, not like that I expected anything different from him.
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
Yes.
Wow. Horrible design. They should have done the change for both Hellbats and Hellions.
As an aside, they should have changed it to 3 instead of 4 as well.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it.
Watching TLOs stream atm. He had 5 queens, 3 of which were out of his base at the creep line, 1 at ramp outside main to make wall, 1 at nat. Sees the medivac when it is 2 range from in his main and has to pull his queens back in all the way around his partial wall. 4 hellion transform into hellbat and he looses only 1 queen in the engagement. after seeing that which I would consider almost a 'worst pro situation' it seems very managable.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
I wouldn't usually post such a snarky comment, but you set yourself up so well by insisting that he 'study history my friend'.
Lee Enfield rifles were British, not US issue. US was the m1 Garand.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
I wouldn't usually post such a snarky comment, but you set yourself up so well by insisting that he 'study history my friend'.
Lee Enfield rifles were British, not US issue. US was the m1 Garand.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
I wouldn't usually post such a snarky comment, but you set yourself up so well by insisting that he 'study history my friend'.
Lee Enfield rifles were British, not US issue. US was the m1 Garand.
Honestly, I do like the hellbat design, however they're making so many weird ass workarounds rather than actually fixing the problems with the unit itself.
I mean cmon, a hellion can now somehow change into a biological unit which magically now takes up twice the space in a medivac?
I think the hellbat needs to be just -Same space in medivacs as it used to be -Not biological -Upgrade to transform researched from armory
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs, such as mass 3/3 ling/infestor into a minefield. If you get ROFLSTOMPED, you deserved it, no different than Chinese Kung fu sword masters charging a Gatling gun pill box. Study history my friend, within WW2 alone, the sub machine gun was invented and deployed so successfully US soldiers discarded their Lee Enfield rifles as the soonest opportunity. Calvary became obsolete, massive losses to the nations that fielded them (Marxist Russia), and so on.
In war, innovate or die. Terrans have been embracing their new units, can the same be said for Zerg and Protoss players?
I wouldn't usually post such a snarky comment, but you set yourself up so well by insisting that he 'study history my friend'.
Lee Enfield rifles were British, not US issue. US was the m1 Garand.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it.
There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed.
The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it.
There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed.
The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied.
Not really, every single TvX matchup was BFH spam until it got nerfed, which is why the nerf was so fast One of the biggest reason terran get some stuff nerfed very fast is because it usually completely break one or every matchups
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it.
There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed.
The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied.
That was such a sweet GSL. And then Blizzard crapped all over SC2. It seems that everytime Terran makes a build that forces roaches, Blizzard brings out the nerf hammer.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs
thats because essentially nothing of zerg has changed until lair except burrow at hatchery and drones going to the mineral patches automatically.
On February 15 2013 01:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran is starting to become the skinny kid who fought off a bully and his gang and got suspended for self-defense... GG Zerg and Protoss your whin... Er "prayers" to the nerf gods have been answered.
It's still the most OP race on Hots, you're embarrassing yourself
Only because Zerg stick to WoL BOs
thats because essentially nothing of zerg has changed until lair except burrow at hatchery and drones going to the mineral patches automatically.
Nothing for zerg changed *except* these new threats that slow down Zerg economy. To expect to use the exact same builds as before when there are new early game threats is a little ridiculous. What's the point of even playing the expansion then?
If we keep nerfing early game play, we'll end up in the same situation where we are in Wings -- where standard play is 2-3 bases before even really engaging anyone. Great for highlight reels and "zomg eSports" but further stagnates play, especially if they're going to keep pounding the asymmetric design angle.
Early game plays should be repellable if you're ready (scouted or blind countered), but should do damage if you're not. "Standard play" should not be safe against all possible early game attacks. The game shouldn't be nerfed to the point where if you're caught off-guard by an early play, you still end up even or only slightly behind. Otherwise, we should just start games with 2 saturated bases and play from there, skip the first 5 minutes or so of boring crap.
This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change.
On February 15 2013 08:28 LingBlingBling wrote: This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change.
Won't balance a thing imo.
You realise that the hellion takes 5 seconds to transform right?
If you don't have enough units to kill atleast 3 if not all of them in 5 seconds you're playing greedy and deserve to take damage from hurass.
Also you can run your workers away in that time too.
On February 15 2013 08:28 LingBlingBling wrote: This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change.
Won't balance a thing imo.
I haven't played a Zerg that did not have full vision of their base by the 7:30 mark.
On February 15 2013 08:28 LingBlingBling wrote: This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change.
Won't balance a thing imo.
You realise that the hellion takes 5 seconds to transform right?
If you don't have enough units to kill atleast 3 if not all of them in 5 seconds you're playing greedy and deserve to take damage from hurass.
Also you can run your workers away in that time too.
It takes a sec less then viking going air to ground. It's not that slow, and hell bat drops can hit sooner then the 7 30 mark off 1 base.....
And the drop it's self was not the issue, The issue was the hellbat is to strong for the cost, even on the recent state of the game, all 3 eg players agreed this change is stupid/useless does nothing to solve the problem. and 2 bats with 2 helbats with medivac heal is still stupid strong.
Running workers away from hellbats does nothing, If you play at a lvl top master/gm on Beta you would understand even with a perfect worker split, the hellbats will trade very well vs anything u throw at it, even roaches. for only the small cost of min and a fast making armory.....
I think this is a step in the right direction. I still don't think it makes sense for them to be considered bio, but 2 per ship instead of 4 is definitely easier to deal with.
This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage). Blizzard agreed that hellbat DROPS were too strong, because the combination of hellbats with medivacs is too powerful, so they adjusted the cargo space from 2 to 4. Reasons for it being too strong: 1) Biological Tag allows them to be healed by medivacs. 2) They do 30 damage to light units. 3) They do conical splash damage. 4) They cost only 100 minerals. 5) Teching to 1/1/1 with Armory is not going to ruin the rest of your build. 6) Anything else I may have left out.
Since this #14 Patch (cargo space), resourceful terrans can ideally work around this limitation simply by making a 2nd medivac out of a reactor to compensate for the increased cargo. While this "Cargo Space" tag modified a tag on the hellbat unit, what this change actually affects is the MEDIVAC!!! (mind-blown!). Taking a step back, we can see that the MEDIVAC (not the hellbat) is the unit of concern here.
I would like to see 2 polls created on this subject. First poll being:
A) Hellbat drops were perfect, even before this patch. B) Due to this patch, everything has been fixed. C) This patch helps, but more changes are needed. D) This patch changes nothing.
Second poll being: If you responded C or D - what ELSE would you like to see done ?
A) Hellbats unable to be healed by medivac - Bio tag removed. (Beta Balance Patch #3 reversed) B) Hellion into Hellbat transformation researched at the Armory. (Beta Balance Patch #7 reversed) C) Hellbats damage reduced from 18 + 12 to light to its previously 10 + 9 to light. (Beta Balance Patch #11 reversed) D) Hellbats cost increased from mineral only to X amount of gas cost (never tested before) E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy (never tested before) F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab (never tested before) G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting (never tested before) H) Medivac speed boost completely removed from game (Beta Balance Patch #8 reversed)
Now that I have enlightened you, please lets help get the following information back to blizzard:
- This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches.
My best recommendation for Blizzard is to implement all 3 options E, F & G. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting
But I will settle for any one of the three.
Please, your responses to my comment will be appreciated as I will check back here since this is a subject close to my heart. TL;DR: The medivac is the unit that needs a change, due to the synergy it has with the hellbat, not the hellbat itself.
On February 15 2013 02:37 Protosnake wrote: 1 year to nerf BFH and bunker 2 year to nerf Snipe
by that logic, 3 years to nerf infested terrans... You cant assume something is overpowered throughout its existence, things that werent overpowered in the beginning may become so after time as the players learn to utilize it in more optimal ways, sometimes in conjunction with a new patch.
Infested terran were the result of an infestor buff mid-wol. Players didnt learn to utlize it, blizzard just buffed it.
Bunkers and multirax opening on the other hand were overpowered and massively used until it got severely nerfed. Which took time. Same for snipe. Same for BFH.
Terran aren't "discriminated" or something, reading that is embarrassing.
Your right about the blue flame hellion but not about the snipe. Snipe was nerf rather fast compare to the other stuff. I think MVP first display the power of snipe at GSL Metalopolis where he split map and mass ghost. It only lasted like 2 months then it got nerfed. Blue flame hellion on the other hand did take ages for it to get nerfed.
There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it.
There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed.
The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied.
That was such a sweet GSL. And then Blizzard crapped all over SC2. It seems that everytime Terran makes a build that forces roaches, Blizzard brings out the nerf hammer.
that gsl was also full of all ins. I think DRG did a roach baneling 'timing attack' almost in all games.
That gsl was only good because MMA was nice enough not to use ghosts so that zerg T3 actually had a chance.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: - This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches.
E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting
I think that F is a step too far. E would be ok, so long as it is a minor amount of energy (<25, but the cool-down would need to be lowered if the energy cost is anything above 10). G makes perfect sense. It is a very "small" change and makes PERFECT sense on the lore side.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: - This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches.
E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting
I think that F is a step too far. E would be ok, so long as it is a minor amount of energy (<25, but the cool-down would need to be lowered if the energy cost is anything above 10). G makes perfect sense. It is a very "small" change and makes PERFECT sense on the lore side.
But that would completely kill hellbat/medivac micro. That type of play is healthy for the game, it's good that units can make up for each others weaknesses if microed correctly. It just needs to be balanced so that it comes at a timing that's so random to stop.
Which is why the nerf they did is perfect.
Common sense... if the problem is only with hellbat/medivacs you shouldn't nerf Medivacs in either of the ways listed, because that would hurt medivac play with other units too much.
I'm a Zerg player, but I think it's completely messed up that people want to completely remove the Medivac/Hellbat synergy. Don't completely remove it, just balance it. And honestly, right now it seems to be in a good place. It's not super random to defend against and comes at the same time as the early aggression of the other races (slightly after 7mins for 4 hellbats).
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage). Blizzard agreed that hellbat DROPS were too strong, because the combination of hellbats with medivacs is too powerful, so they adjusted the cargo space from 2 to 4. Reasons for it being too strong: 1) Biological Tag allows them to be healed by medivacs. 2) They do 30 damage to light units. 3) They do conical splash damage. 4) They cost only 100 minerals. 5) Teching to 1/1/1 with Armory is not going to ruin the rest of your build. 6) Anything else I may have left out.
Since this #14 Patch (cargo space), resourceful terrans can ideally work around this limitation simply by making a 2nd medivac out of a reactor to compensate for the increased cargo. While this "Cargo Space" tag modified a tag on the hellbat unit, what this change actually affects is the MEDIVAC!!! (mind-blown!). Taking a step back, we can see that the MEDIVAC (not the hellbat) is the unit of concern here.
I would like to see 2 polls created on this subject. First poll being:
A) Hellbat drops were perfect, even before this patch. B) Due to this patch, everything has been fixed. C) This patch helps, but more changes are needed. D) This patch changes nothing.
Second poll being: If you responded C or D - what ELSE would you like to see done ?
A) Hellbats unable to be healed by medivac - Bio tag removed. (Beta Balance Patch #3 reversed) B) Hellion into Hellbat transformation researched at the Armory. (Beta Balance Patch #7 reversed) C) Hellbats damage reduced from 18 + 12 to light to its previously 10 + 9 to light. (Beta Balance Patch #11 reversed) D) Hellbats cost increased from mineral only to X amount of gas cost (never tested before) E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy (never tested before) F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab (never tested before) G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting (never tested before) H) Medivac speed boost completely removed from game (Beta Balance Patch #8 reversed)
Now that I have enlightened you, please lets help get the following information back to blizzard:
- This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches.
My best recommendation for Blizzard is to implement all 3 options E, F & G. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting
But I will settle for any one of the three.
Please, your responses to my comment will be appreciated as I will check back here since this is a subject close to my heart. TL;DR: The medivac is the unit that needs a change, due to the synergy it has with the hellbat, not the hellbat itself.
Dude, you should post this as a separate thread as this will be ignored in this thread when it's no longer in the latest page.
In fact, you should make a thread like this for every problem currently being faced on a per-unit basis. I like how you stated what has been tried and what has never been tried before.
Start a new thread, this is heaps better than the OP of this thread. Its like: "Okay Blizzard just changed the Hellbat, go at it."
So now we got people going at it with no direction.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage). Blizzard agreed that hellbat DROPS were too strong, because the combination of hellbats with medivacs is too powerful, so they adjusted the cargo space from 2 to 4. Reasons for it being too strong: 1) Biological Tag allows them to be healed by medivacs. 2) They do 30 damage to light units. 3) They do conical splash damage. 4) They cost only 100 minerals. 5) Teching to 1/1/1 with Armory is not going to ruin the rest of your build. 6) Anything else I may have left out.
Since this #14 Patch (cargo space), resourceful terrans can ideally work around this limitation simply by making a 2nd medivac out of a reactor to compensate for the increased cargo. While this "Cargo Space" tag modified a tag on the hellbat unit, what this change actually affects is the MEDIVAC!!! (mind-blown!). Taking a step back, we can see that the MEDIVAC (not the hellbat) is the unit of concern here.
I would like to see 2 polls created on this subject. First poll being:
A) Hellbat drops were perfect, even before this patch. B) Due to this patch, everything has been fixed. C) This patch helps, but more changes are needed. D) This patch changes nothing.
Second poll being: If you responded C or D - what ELSE would you like to see done ?
A) Hellbats unable to be healed by medivac - Bio tag removed. (Beta Balance Patch #3 reversed) B) Hellion into Hellbat transformation researched at the Armory. (Beta Balance Patch #7 reversed) C) Hellbats damage reduced from 18 + 12 to light to its previously 10 + 9 to light. (Beta Balance Patch #11 reversed) D) Hellbats cost increased from mineral only to X amount of gas cost (never tested before) E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy (never tested before) F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab (never tested before) G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting (never tested before) H) Medivac speed boost completely removed from game (Beta Balance Patch #8 reversed)
Now that I have enlightened you, please lets help get the following information back to blizzard:
- This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches.
My best recommendation for Blizzard is to implement all 3 options E, F & G. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting
But I will settle for any one of the three.
Please, your responses to my comment will be appreciated as I will check back here since this is a subject close to my heart. TL;DR: The medivac is the unit that needs a change, due to the synergy it has with the hellbat, not the hellbat itself.
Dude, you should post this as a separate thread as this will be ignored in this thread when it's no longer in the latest page.
In fact, you should make a thread like this for every problem currently being faced on a per-unit basis. I like how you stated what has been tried and what has never been tried before.
Start a new thread, this is heaps better than the OP of this thread. Its like: "Okay Blizzard just changed the Hellbat, go at it."
So now we got people going at it with no direction.
They already nerfed the synergy between the two... Apparently people want to completely take the synergy and remove the usefulness of Hellbats completely.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage).
Im sorry but if you read the whole thread there is a lot of people who stiil complains about hellbat damage, and much more people complaining about the biological tag.
I thnik that the best way to balance the hellbats drops was the research path: bring back the blue flame to helbats and make the transformation a research. So intead having the first drop at 7 -7:30 you push back the drops to mid-late game where the enemy player should have enougt to defend the drop.
But noooo, enable the panic mode and create a dumb nerf like the crago space. Its ugly but it works.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage).
Im sorry but if you read the whole thread there is a lot of people who stiil complains about hellbat damage, and much more people complaining about the biological tag.
I thnik that the best way to balance the hellbats drops was the research path: bring back the blue flame to helbats and make the transformation a research. So intead having the first drop at 7 -7:30 you push back the drops to mid-late game where the enemy player should have enougt to defend the drop.
But noooo, enable the panic mode and create a dumb nerf like the crago space. Its ugly but it works.
The first drops reached the enemy base at 6:30 pre-patch.
Now they get there about 7:10 if you do the same with 2 medivacs.
All the other races can do early game aggression at ~7 minutes as well. This drop matches up perfectly. There's no reason you shouldn't have enough to defend unless you didn't scout the enemy.
So your solution would be to remove the harass completely? Why do people always insist on overdoing nerfs? I just want Terrans to be possibly to defend against without being random. I don't want them to have useless units or remove harass options...
The first drops reached the enemy base at 6:30 pre-patch.
Now they get there about 7:10 if you do the same with 2 medivacs.
All the other races can do early game aggression at ~7 minutes as well. This drop matches up perfectly. There's no reason you shouldn't have enough to defend unless you didn't scout the enemy.
So your solution would be to remove the harass completely? Why do people always insist on overdoing nerfs? I just want Terrans to be possibly to defend against without being random. I don't want them to have useless units or remove harass options...
No, I dont want to remove the harass, just delay it a little bit to give more options to the defender player with a more... "logical" solution than the cargo space (IMO).
this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
World War 2 Cavalry While most armies still maintained cavalry units at the outbreak of World War II in 1939, significant mounted action was largely restricted to the Polish, Balkan and Soviet campaigns.
In any case, you are missing the forest for the trees.
The point is in warfare, new technology will ALWAYS appear or reappear the longer the conflict continues. These nerfs are the cancer killing SC2.
T have been doing marine drops since '09, FOUR YEARS OF IT. I'm getting bored, spectators are getting bored and pros are getting bored. How else can DOTA and other arena games EXPLODE in the last eighteen months, which coincided with the last few major nerfs! Nydus play, banshee raids, Hydra drops, etc etc
All this because Blizzard wants to keeps its core fan base.
Something the Chinese and Japanese Emperors did to OUTLAW (nerf) firearms to make things "fair" for the other weapons of war, swords, cavalry, etc And it bit them in the backside because they refused to change. The Chinese were conquered by their own invention, but carried by their invaders.
Blizzard is king of the RTS hill for now, but for how long I wonder as they continue to nerf any innovation just because their core base could not or refuse to adapt to any innovation.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
I'm not conveniently omitting banelings. The person I quoted didn't mention them. I understand that banelings are an exception.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
I'm not conveniently omitting banelings. The person I quoted didn't mention them. I understand that banelings are an exception.
I don't think there's ever been a correlation between a unit's supply value and the amount of space they take up in a cargo ship, altho' there has been some correlation between a unit's model size and it's supply it's not really the same thing.
I mean look at BW, Siege Tanks were 2 Supply and took up 4 spaces in a Dropship if I remember correctly.
Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
Edit: Let's not forget a non-rush timing for MSC is 4 min latest, guaranting at least 2 min worth of additional MP gathered for photon overcharge? How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min besides probes?
Why not make unloading these hellbats from medivac slower instead? I believe it takes about half an hour before a Thor starts shooting from the moment it is unloaded from a medivac, while a marine starts pew-pew:ing right away. So it seems to be a thing that can be tweaked. A few more seconds to respond should make a huge difference. Hurts any load/unload micro the terran could potentially do though.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
The only time colossi are trash is when the terran has 20 vikings in the air. Otherwise they are always the best damage dealers of the protoss army.
A mix of immortals and colossi is always the scariest protoss ground army as mech.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
On February 16 2013 01:54 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Technically stuff that "happens in beta" isnt canon yet and thus no changes in beta are actually "nerfs". Such radical changes as being able to heal a "mechanical unit" and the "speed boost for Medivacs" have to be thought about a lot and it is they who are the real cause of problems with the Battle Hellion IMO. Instead of Battle Hellions the Terran could use Widow Mines for instance. For an early rush that is pretty annoying at least and the speed boost increases the success chance of such a tactic by far too much IMO.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
I never demanded a nerf, in fact the original change I proposed has both pros and cons for the unit (making hellbats armored-type instead of light) and I certainly wouldn't want drastic changes made from my experiences alone. I was just sharing my personal perspective, and you're welcome to disagree with it but thanks for suggesting that I'm some menace to society for having an opinion. Or maybe you were just trying to be snarky.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
Click the links, use the search bar and search "nerf" within the DAoC ZAM forum. One of the reasons the game "died" was a result of "Too many nerfbats to the face" syndrome.
Re: New unit X vs. old units If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you, the bio-tag was a suggestion from poster on TL that suggested it for ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no ruling authority to
You're ridiculous. You're a buff in history. Good for you but no one care and no one want to verify that in this thread. "A nerfed game is a dead game". Were you telling the same speech when infestor broodlord was raping terran left and right ? I assume not.
"I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation." If you dont know what's the correct answer then you cant just throw around that this is balanced, you have to bring arguments. Saying "It's not my problem, be creative" isnt an argument.
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
PS : Also what the fuck does "TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...?" means ? Why should they believe you over this guy ?
On February 16 2013 05:15 submarine wrote:On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
If you have watched HotS streams since patch, 4 Hellbat drops require 2 Medivacs now, and come at a much more defendable timing. More importantly, they aren't bringing the majority of their units with the drops anymore, just a few units, where as before they could easily have enough unit to defend (except in TvT) while bringing the majority of their forces over in the drop.
Not sure if you have watched the streams pre-patch or post-patch, but things aren't so bad anymore. Resume from replay is an amazing feature. You really can test different reactions from the earliest point you are able to scout something, to see if you can respond to something in a reasonable amount of time. Using this I haven't ran in to anything that I couldn't defend properly post-patch, but I admit pre-patch it was extremely random.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no ruling authority to
You're ridiculous. You're a buff in history. Good for you but no one care and no one want to verify that in this thread. "A nerfed game is a dead game". Were you telling the same speech when infestor broodlord was raping terran left and right ? I assume not.
"I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation." If you dont know what's the correct answer then you cant just throw around that this is balanced, you have to bring arguments. Saying "It's not my problem, be creative" isnt an argument.
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
PS : Also what the fuck does "TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...?" means ? Why should they believe you over this guy ?
Yes, I was. Use the search feature. I support infestor-broodlord because I support the theory that EVERY race should have a gas intense ultimate T3 composition, similar to how a secondary objective in chess was to prevent the opponent's pawn from reaching your end of the board to prevent a SECOND queen to enter play and to bring your own pawn into their end of the board to get your own SECOND queen and so forth.
Without this dynamic, there would be no point in reaching the end of the tech tree in the first place. One of the reasons, I believe that led to the massive drop in pro-player and spectator base in the last two years. Terrans simply did not have a reason to tech up beyond kill them before P and Z reached their end of the tech tree, and thus were stuck with only two options, multi-prong drops or macro 4 base, MMMVG at 40min push for-the-win or bust.
I have posted numerous counters including the "5-roach-two-queen with burrow micro" defense against Terran drops in an earlier thread before. Hence the statement. I had already given a viable counter composition, now you want a Build Order? That's demanding too much IMO. I'm a well-educated spectator hoping that one day SC2 will be taken as a serious intellectual sport, not a kids game.
I am not part the Zerg pro-community.
It is reasonable IMHO to produce a viable composition of 5 roaches with burrow researched at 6min with at least one creep queen storing up 100 energy for the possible drop which your well-spread creep, zerglings on the watch-towers and overlords should spot the incoming medivac.
Because references?
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
If you want SC2 to remain "a fucking videogame", then I see where we differ. Nothing else to be said which earth you are in.
On February 16 2013 13:49 Rowrin wrote: The nerf was definitly needed, but the more I look at terran in HoTS the only thing I can see is a race held together with bandaids and duct-tape.
It didn't use to be that way, but, with the various indirect nerfs the race sustained over WoL, it takes an extremely talented player to hold the race together. HotS seems better. However, in hindsight, nobody really should have thought that Terran was "more complete than the other 2 races."
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine, Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you it was a poster here that suggested battle hellions to have the bio tag because it could have ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Which has been added. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
If you are a "military history buff" than i am Santa Clause. And people should believe Santa Clause because Santa Clause is not a self acclaimed "military history buff" without any clue.
-The first smg in larger military use was the Bergmann MP18. -Apart from a few American Expeditionary Force units attached to British and Australian units during the First World War the us military did not use lee enfields. Even computer game kids playing COD know that the rifle that won the war was the M1. -Although a few armies still had cavalry at the beginning of WW2, cavalry was obsolete at that point. -In a fight between several M1s and one Hind only armed with its limited traverse 20mm cannon i would bet my money on the tanks. Modern tanks can aim their cannons at helicopters, and the 20mm would have a very limited effect on the tanks. -I don't know of any flamethrowers in use by military right now. Special ammo for rocket lunchers and cannons seems to have taken its place. This has nothing to do with SC2.
On topic: I can not really understand your obsession with not nerfing anything ever. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat quite late and increased some numbers not too long ago. It is very possible that a few numbers might be too high right now. If blizzard was only able to achieve balance through buffs they would have to buff various other parts of any race to balance out one wrong number on the hellbat. Thats just not practical. You need to be able to increase and decrease certain numbers to balance SC2. Small nerfs that bring a unit from totally OP to just about right have to be possible.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine, Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you it was a poster here that suggested battle hellions to have the bio tag because it could have ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Which has been added. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
If you are a "military history buff" than i am Santa Clause. And people should believe Santa Clause because Santa Clause is not a self acclaimed "military history buff" without any clue.
-The first smg in larger military use was the Bergmann MP18. -Apart from a few American Expeditionary Force units attached to British and Australian units during the First World War the us military did not use lee enfields. Even computer game kids playing COD know that the rifle that won the war was the M1. -Although a few armies still had cavalry at the beginning of WW2, cavalry was obsolete at that point. -In a fight between several M1s and one Hind only armed with its limited traverse 20mm cannon i would bet my money on the tanks. Modern tanks can aim their cannons at helicopters, and the 20mm would have a very limited effect on the tanks. -I don't know of any flamethrowers in use by military right now. Special ammo for rocket lunchers and cannons seems to have taken its place. This has nothing to do with SC2.
On topic: I can not really understand your obsession with not nerfing anything ever. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat quite late and increased some numbers not too long ago. It is very possible that a few numbers might be too high right now. If blizzard was only able to achieve balance through buffs they would have to buff various other parts of any race to balance out one wrong number on the hellbat. Thats just not practical. You need to be able to increase and decrease certain numbers to balance SC2. Small nerfs that bring a unit from totally OP to just about right have to be possible.
During the Second World War, standard No. 4 rifles, selected for their accuracy during factory tests, were modified by the addition of a wooden cheek-piece, and telescopic sight mounts designed to accept a No. 32 3.5x telescopic sight.
If you knew your military history as well as you claim, many of the European cities were retaken with key positioning of snipers to effectively control space and Nazi troop and supply movement within the cities without having to resort to bombing. Something that wikipedia did not tell you.
- Re: cavalry, you agree that the mass deployment of infantry armed with rifles and tanks made cavalry obsolete. I thought you said I have no idea what I'm talking about?
- Re: battle tanks vs. gunships, I face palmed so hard... You actually believe a FLYING helicopter traveling at 168mph which can ascend/descend faster than you can turn your head (750m/min) with can be shot down by the main turret of a tank!?
- Re: flame throwers were not even in your claim that everything on I said modern warfare is untrue. Maybe English is not your first language.
- Yes, modern day weapons and military engagements have no practical use of reference for Real Time Strategy game based on science fictional future *sarcasm*
Because as many many others have pointed out earlier, the options for a reasonable response against a hellbat or widow-mine drop already exist and cost-for-cost are equal in numbers. Blizzard has improved all the races scouting options immensely in HotS:
1. Transformed reaper from specialist anti-light harassing unit to general scouting unit with the removal of tech lab requirement and movement boost to 3.75 while nerfing its bonus damage.
2. Overlord speed research reduced to Hatchery, in addition to creep spread vision and vision from lings with highest ingame speed which cost 50 min.
3. MSC that enables early game pressure with option to recall quickly, while turning nexus into a range 13 planetary fortress with 13.8 dps (based on assumed attack speed of a stalker).
Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
since when did modern weaponry have anything to do with how a game plays out
also bc's die to marines
apparently bc's dying should cause nukes
I should also note that SC2 is a futuristic game. if you can't tell the game is played in space. so I'm not sure how you'd bother using "modern" military weapons
I am sorry for going offtopic yet another time, i am just too weak to not respond to this troll.
-This "sniper doctrine lesson" has nothing to do with the lee enfield rifle. Pretty much any nation used specially selected standard rifles with scopes. -I guess you were right on cavalry then sorry. -A MBT can shoot down a attack helicopter with the main gun if the helicopter hovers or flies towards the MBT. The Hind has to do exactly that if he wants to attack with his limited traverse 23 mm cannon or his fixed 30 mm cannon. It is debatable if a 20 mm cannon is able to seriously damage a MBT. Normally helicopters use rockets to deal with MBTs.
On topic: In my opinion hellbatdrops in combination with speed boost were overpowered with cargosize 2. Lets wait and see if the patch does its job. I would have preferred to play with other values instead of the cargo size to achieve balance.
On February 16 2013 13:49 Rowrin wrote: The nerf was definitly needed, but the more I look at terran in HoTS the only thing I can see is a race held together with bandaids and duct-tape.
In my opinion this notion can be applied to the game as a whole as it stands right now. They shouldnt have build on WoL in its current state.
I would have preferred to play with other values instead of the cargo size to achieve balance.
That would change far took much. Playing with the Cargo space itself means the unit doesn't recieve a direct nerf to it's general utility. It's the best possible way to balance the drop situation without removing so many other options for so many different styles (medivac speed being changed forces tech lab starport with bio, hellbat damage nerf makes mech so much harder against toss again, etc. etc.)
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P
Yeah bro. You totally sound like you know the current metagame well. Definitely. And I agree that bitching about realism in a game where a couple dozen guys with machine guns have always been able to bring down city block sized battlecruisers is absolutely a great way to spend your time.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
I think he was making a broad analogy using military hardware and game units? Pretty sure.
Details aside though?
I particularly liked the whole Bruce Lee vs the Russian sniper in an elevator thing
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
Here's an Idea, lets stay on topic. Current and past military hardware comparisons, and complaints about nerfs to Terran made 2 1/2 years ago have nothing to do with the patch that was released. It just ends up annoying people reading the thread. Its a new game, who cares about old WoL openers that were nerfed years ago. It HotS now and stuff like hellbat and mine drops are being experimented with. Last I checkeed, they haven't been nerfed out of existence yet.
Also as a side-note half of those meta-game nerfs you list were never viable to begin with.
Watching HotS TvT streams is really stupid right now. Even with the cargo increase it seems that the aggressor (dropping hellbats first) has an easier task ahead of themselves as opposed to the defending player. Oh and late game zvz is also really stupid as it's mass ultralisk vs mass ultralisk.
On February 17 2013 01:16 archonOOid wrote: Watching HotS TvT streams is really stupid right now. Even with the cargo increase it seems that the aggressor (dropping hellbats first) has an easier task ahead of themselves as opposed to the defending player. Oh and late game zvz is also really stupid as it's mass ultralisk vs mass ultralisk.
PvP is dah best.
jokes aside, I find the new PvP a really fun matchup to watch and play.
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
Here's an Idea, lets stay on topic. Current and past military hardware comparisons, and complaints about nerfs to Terran made 2 1/2 years ago have nothing to do with the patch that was released. It just ends up annoying people reading the thread. Its a new game, who cares about old WoL openers that were nerfed years ago. It HotS now and stuff like hellbat and mine drops are being experimented with. Last I checkeed, they haven't been nerfed out of existence yet.
Also as a side-note half of those meta-game nerfs you list were never viable to begin with.
I'd say he was only pointing out that Blizzards way of handling things leaves us with one or maybe two tactics which are "most effective" and thus used a lot and that there really should be many similarly valid tactics instead to give more variety and greater longevity to the game in the end. That was the intent of listing all the stuff.
Battle Hellion drops seem to be the "new best thing" at least for TvT right now ...
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
Here's an Idea, lets stay on topic. Current and past military hardware comparisons, and complaints about nerfs to Terran made 2 1/2 years ago have nothing to do with the patch that was released. It just ends up annoying people reading the thread. Its a new game, who cares about old WoL openers that were nerfed years ago. It HotS now and stuff like hellbat and mine drops are being experimented with. Last I checkeed, they haven't been nerfed out of existence yet.
Also as a side-note half of those meta-game nerfs you list were never viable to begin with.
I'd say he was only pointing out that Blizzards way of handling things leaves us with one or maybe two tactics which are "most effective" and thus used a lot and that there really should be many similarly valid tactics instead to give more variety and greater longevity to the game in the end. That was the intent of listing all the stuff.
Battle Hellion drops seem to be the "new best thing" at least for TvT right now ...
He's doing it in a very odd way which seems to have something to do with boasting his military knowledge, which is off the wall and incorrect 80% of the time. Most effective exists in everything ever. From real life to video games. It's called min-maxing. It has been, and always will be done. That's why it's the most effective, that's why it's used. You can't make 500 different strategies have the same potency.
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
Here's an Idea, lets stay on topic. Current and past military hardware comparisons, and complaints about nerfs to Terran made 2 1/2 years ago have nothing to do with the patch that was released. It just ends up annoying people reading the thread. Its a new game, who cares about old WoL openers that were nerfed years ago. It HotS now and stuff like hellbat and mine drops are being experimented with. Last I checkeed, they haven't been nerfed out of existence yet.
Also as a side-note half of those meta-game nerfs you list were never viable to begin with.
I'd say he was only pointing out that Blizzards way of handling things leaves us with one or maybe two tactics which are "most effective" and thus used a lot and that there really should be many similarly valid tactics instead to give more variety and greater longevity to the game in the end. That was the intent of listing all the stuff.
Battle Hellion drops seem to be the "new best thing" at least for TvT right now ...
He's doing it in a very odd way which seems to have something to do with boasting his military knowledge, which is off the wall and incorrect 80% of the time. Most effective exists in everything ever. From real life to video games. It's called min-maxing. It has been, and always will be done. That's why it's the most effective, that's why it's used. You can't make 500 different strategies have the same potency.
The "real life military progress bit" was total nonsense and calling for stops to nerfs during a beta is equally stupid because a beta is all about balancing stuff, but thats not in the last post quoted ...
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
None of the openings you state are even decent. The thing about openings is that there are 2 or 3 which are optimal for each race, so that's why you could think there is so "small" variation in competitive play. I can agree with the dead of reaper harass,but that's it.
And ZvZ nowadays reaches T3 quite often, almost every game reaches the point of roach-infestor.
Learn about the metagame before criticising it dude..
On topic, I'm not really happy the way Blizz is balancing lately. This change of cargo space (or the biotag) is quite confusing. I would have prefered a change to the medivac boost which I feel is the main problematic of Hellbat drops.
I can't help but noticing this is another Terran nerf
Not that I think the change is wrong, but it does tend to happen a lot doesn't it?
Hellbat drops were OP, but imo it was caused by medivacs being too fast, not with the hellbats themselves. The sheer speed of medivacs with the speed boost is just ridiculous imo.
On February 16 2013 23:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
because it comes with an entire campaign? also it's 20 bucks cheaper than WoL? unless you're a sucker and ordered one of the editions with like a panda avatar or something lol.
On February 16 2013 23:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
because it comes with an entire campaign? also it's 20 bucks cheaper than WoL? unless you're a sucker and ordered one of the editions with like a panda avatar or something lol.
I hear brood war came with an entire campaign for all 3 races.
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
Edit: formatting. and Demuslim series.
It's an expansion. For outsiders, of cause it would look similar or even the same. What do you expect? Space Orcs using light sabers?
CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre.
Those non-gaming friends of yours aren't the target audience, who cares.
I would really suggest you to stop making those WWII comments and other things because not only are they derailing the thread, but also just shows how often you got things wrong.
Leave the thread about starcraft and starcraft only. It's a game, it's at beta, things are going to be this way, balance goes beyond settings because it's a competitive game, not a realistic military war simulation whatever you think it is
If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
I expect realistic scenarios not space orcs using light sabers as a new race, maybe Blizzard should introduce space orcs, because why not? Zerglings are a pet feature in WoW already. Who needs a realistic military science fiction RTS?
Let's see, CoD MW used the same engine with the same story background and settings and still remains to be one of the most successful franchise in the FPS genre. Was the discussion about engine, story background and settings?
No, the discussion is about CoD MW introducing a new weapon into PvP then nerfing it to the ground because "IMBA". Let's see a list of Terran metagame nerf in the past two years: 1. ghost/marauder drop DEAD 2. early ghost nuke opener DEAD 3. ghost snipe rush DEAD 4. ghost/marine opening DEAD 5. reaper harass DEAD 6. marauder/reaper opening DEAD 7. Thor drops DEAD
While Z and P both have had their nerfbats, I won't be going into them as I'm not too familiar in those races.
How long will the game remain competitive if the 1million strong viewer base and pro-player base be if there's so few openings? How long before even a two week old spectator can spot an incoming baneling bust?
Where's the excitement?
I already stopped watching ZvZ for the past year because its boring. It's either baneling bust or muta rush and maybe roaches with infestors (if we're lucky). No drops, no nydus, no T3 even. I have also stopped playing two years ago because my favorite unit was ghost and opening ghosts/hellion vs. Z or P.
Here's an Idea, lets stay on topic. Current and past military hardware comparisons, and complaints about nerfs to Terran made 2 1/2 years ago have nothing to do with the patch that was released. It just ends up annoying people reading the thread. Its a new game, who cares about old WoL openers that were nerfed years ago. It HotS now and stuff like hellbat and mine drops are being experimented with. Last I checkeed, they haven't been nerfed out of existence yet.
Also as a side-note half of those meta-game nerfs you list were never viable to begin with.
I'd say he was only pointing out that Blizzards way of handling things leaves us with one or maybe two tactics which are "most effective" and thus used a lot and that there really should be many similarly valid tactics instead to give more variety and greater longevity to the game in the end. That was the intent of listing all the stuff.
Battle Hellion drops seem to be the "new best thing" at least for TvT right now ...
Yet more amazing insight from someone who admits they dont play beta...Your claims are far from true. Your thinking in WoL mindset still.
In HotS there are many new valid tactics, scouting is more important than ever because of this. You can't blindly go with the same strat every game and succeed as far as you could in WoL.
The most ironic thing about your posts is some of the changes you have tried to support (arguing that they were better than what Blizzard did) would have removed some of these options from the game, even for your own race.
Hellbats "were" the best new thing, but that was the problem, and why they had to be balanced, because they were removing the new found variety from the metagame. But instead of supporting their decision - which according to you would be for the better since your post just said you support varied tactics - you still complain.
You really are trashing up the HotS forum, everything you post is negative and non-constructive, and you don't even play the game... it's all pointless hating and negativity. I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't know why that is even allowed here...
On February 16 2013 23:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: If it was an expansion, why is it priced at a new game pricing?
because it comes with an entire campaign? also it's 20 bucks cheaper than WoL? unless you're a sucker and ordered one of the editions with like a panda avatar or something lol.
I hear brood war came with an entire campaign for all 3 races.
but sc2 campaign per race are much longer, so it equals out
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
On February 17 2013 06:12 zhurai wrote: pretty much.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
I dont quite understand the change, to me the problem is medivac speed, if they just make that an upgrade at a starport tech lab that is a better "solution" imo
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
I don't know, I've seen around 10 TvZs in HotS and every single one was a reaper rush into pure mech with constant battle hellion drop. It might have been coincident that I've ONLY seen that, but obviously a lot of terrans are relying on units/mechanics that are introduced in HotS
On February 17 2013 06:12 zhurai wrote: pretty much.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
I don't think it's being facetious. Insta-siege and vehicle armor could be patched into WOL and only a few timings would changed.
A big complaint from a lot of Terrans, including myself, before the booster was introduced in the first place was that other than Widow Mines, Terran isn't really getting as many game changing units/options as Protoss and Zerg were. As far as gameplay changes, Hellbats aren't much more than a glorified Marauder that comes from the factory.
In my opinion the medivac change will do more to change the way the game is played as far as Terran is involved far more than Widow Mines or Hellbats in the short term, and very likely in the long term as well.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
On February 17 2013 06:12 zhurai wrote: pretty much.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
I don't think it's being facetious. Insta-siege and vehicle armor could be patched into WOL and only a few timings would changed.
A big complaint from a lot of Terrans, including myself, before the booster was introduced in the first place was that other than Widow Mines, Terran isn't really getting as many game changing units/options as Protoss and Zerg were. As far as gameplay changes, Hellbats aren't much more than a glorified Marauder that comes from the factory.
In my opinion the medivac change will do more to change the way the game is played as far as Terran is involved far more than Widow Mines or Hellbats in the short term, and very likely in the long term as well.
Well, I think there are a lot of potential with the new reapers not needing the tech lab plus the tank not needing siege upgrade. It gives out a lot of new potential viable opening. For example, reaper forces more stalkers in TvP, which then a counter attack is defended by tanks. from watching streams, many are getting ravens earlier because the new HSM is quite powerful, something that is yet to be exploded more.
I don't mind the new medivac boost so much because it is fun to look at, balance aside. I think it could use a small upgrade cost that's available later on through since the intent of this was to allow terran to go back to drop heavy style, there is no reason for it to come so early. While Hellbats may be just another marauder comes from the factory, the "comes from factory" part is actually a really crucial point. I think when to transform how many hellions into hellbats may help differentiate the good and the bad terrans. Widow mines also have a lot of potential, since it can be used both offensively and defensively.
Since there is no simple question and answer for HOTS, I will just ask here.
Ghost's cloak ability, does anyone remember it was changed to have a cooldown instead of toggle? Is it like this? Or did they change it back to just like cloak in WoL?
On February 17 2013 15:44 dynwar7 wrote: Since there is no simple question and answer for HOTS, I will just ask here.
Ghost's cloak ability, does anyone remember it was changed to have a cooldown instead of toggle? Is it like this? Or did they change it back to just like cloak in WoL?
On February 17 2013 06:12 zhurai wrote: pretty much.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
insta siege mode for tanks? wait what? did I miss something? what is that?
Edit: nevermind I took this as tanks transformer into siege mode instanty. Just realized it was meant as no research needed for siege mode
The 2 hellion + 1 hellbat thing is still a super good idea. If you don't run away, you're dead, if you run away, you're dead. If your army is more than 6 seconds away, you're screwed, especially if they have blue flame.
2 hellbats are still super good. For a player who took more than 3 seconds to react to mineral line harass, you might as well rage quit. I was watching streams with the new 2 hellbats to a medivac and still, 2 shots go off from each and 6 workers are dead. The only thing you can do is run away. I haven't played much HotS, but as a platinum player, I can just see the frustration that will befall me trying to prepare for reapers, hellbat/hellion drops, banshee. It's so easy for terran to wall or proxy tech too.
All I remember from the first month of WoL was reapers reapers everywhere. I still remember playing and some guy would float a barracks up to the high ground above my base and just make reapers from there that were unkillable and they'd just pick off workers and then my Nexus until I made an observer. I'm excited to play where they don't even need an add on. Terran is in a really dumb place right now. They are eventually going to have to nerf the ever living crap out of the reaper and and hellbat and they already basically got nothing in HotS.
Nerf the crap out of the reaper? Its damage vs light was halved, its damage vs buildings a fraction of what it used to be. Sure its survivability was boosted, but thats the reason I dont see it as much more than a scout that is quite easily accessible. In WoL I quite often use the reaper in openings to actually deal damage, but in HotS I dont see it do much more than tickling the enemy.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
Of them only widow mines and the hellbat can be called part of an expansion, especially removal of siege mode upgrade is just a patch level change. New thor anti-air attack is also an expansion change though, although of course not extremely significant.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
I don't know, I've seen around 10 TvZs in HotS and every single one was a reaper rush into pure mech with constant battle hellion drop. It might have been coincident that I've ONLY seen that, but obviously a lot of terrans are relying on units/mechanics that are introduced in HotS
It's unfortunate, the various nerfs and buffs to other races (queens), has limited terran early game aggression in WoL. The hellbats, reapers and mines give new life to pre-10 minute aggression that's actually quite deadly, and they should rightfully use it. Personally i'd rather see an aggressive Terran than one who races for a third orbital, does a drop or two before a two two doom push.
Is anyone actually using the new Thor AA attack? I remember seeing a lot of discussion about how unless you are behind on upgrades its useless, but this was when it was first introduced. How's it playing out for everyone?
On February 18 2013 19:59 DeCoup wrote: Is anyone actually using the new Thor AA attack? I remember seeing a lot of discussion about how unless you are behind on upgrades its useless, but this was when it was first introduced. How's it playing out for everyone?
It's pointless. The light damage splash gun is better in basically 99% situations.
Sure, the sieged up mode is better in that one dream situation where u have your 1 thor vs 1 void (trololol :D)
On February 18 2013 18:57 Sissors wrote: Nerf the crap out of the reaper? Its damage vs light was halved, its damage vs buildings a fraction of what it used to be. Sure its survivability was boosted, but thats the reason I dont see it as much more than a scout that is quite easily accessible. In WoL I quite often use the reaper in openings to actually deal damage, but in HotS I dont see it do much more than tickling the enemy.
What about insta-siege mode for tanks, what about widow mines, what about the entire unit of the hellbat, what about Mech armor upgrades benefiting air and ground. Dont be facetious.
Of them only widow mines and the hellbat can be called part of an expansion, especially removal of siege mode upgrade is just a patch level change. New thor anti-air attack is also an expansion change though, although of course not extremely significant.
If you actually feel like Reapers can't do early game damage I'm not sure what to tell you. They come out so much quicker, and move so much quicker, that they're out WAY before they ever were in WoL. Proxy Reaper is standard TvZ these days and not because Terran players like to 'tickle the enemy'.
That said, I think the Reaper is in a reasonable spot these days. It's a significant investment from the Terran to get them out and, once speed or roaches is out, they can be properly dealt with.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
And this means nothing what-so-ever as long as noone even knows what "complete" means. As far as I know, completness means this. Pretty un-Starcrafty term if you ask me. Even more according to that definition one thing cannot be "more complete" than another. It either is complete or it isn't.
Not to mention that the whole assumption of Terran getting less is simply wrong. Terran has gotten roughly as many overall changes as the other races and 2 new units, just like Zerg.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
And this means nothing what-so-ever as long as noone even knows what "complete" means. As far as I know, completness means this. Pretty un-Starcrafty term if you ask me. Even more according to that definition one thing cannot be "more complete" than another. It either is complete or it isn't.
Not to mention that the whole assumption of Terran getting less is simply wrong. Terran has gotten roughly as many overall changes as the other races and 2 new units, just like Zerg.
I also share the same sentiment, the number of units is irrelevant in this issue. It's the changes that are made to specific units that boosts it's viability in certain situations (Thor HEP cannon, removal of Energy bar, etc). Terrans in WoL, although complete in terms of flexibility and their ability to answer most problems, had problems reaching late game. Even if we receive two new units, their synergy with our current units (hellbats for tanking, widow mines to address mass flying units and improve map control), makes Terran a far more effective race than in WoL. Even with the lower unit count, reworked units like the reaper and thor practically gave them a second life, further reinforcing our flexibility, paving a solid path for a viable late game Terran. If i wasn't so keen on random, i believe switching to Terran would be my first and only option. Oh and the new Ravens are awesome. Thumbs up Blizzard!
I think people are really underestimating how much Hellbats are gonna change mech play, particularly in TvP. In WoL, mech doesn't really have any frontline units capable of keeping the opponent away from tanklines--Hellions are fragile, and very reliant on kiting, which is exactly what you don't want to do if you're trying to keep the opponent from getting to your back line.
Hellbats on the other hand, aren't just substantially tougher, they can be healed, and they don't need to kite to effective shred tons of chargelots.
Like, everyone always complained in WoL about how hard Immortals own Tanks...well, Immortal dps vs Hellbats is absolute crap, and if the Hellbats have even a little support from medivac healing, Immortals basically can't punch through them. Meaning there is plenty of time to emp the Immortals, then destroy them with tank shots from distance once Hardened shields go down. Its an entirely different dynamic.
Frankly, at the moment, a max supply mech push with tanks well positioned in the second line, Hellbats/Mines up front, and a few ghosts and/or medivacs for support, is basically impossible for any Protoss ground army to break head on.
Which IMO is as it should be. Protoss has skytoss to help with mech, they don't need a ground composition that can punch right through a well-positioned mech force head on.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff.
On February 19 2013 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think people are really underestimating how much Hellbats are gonna change mech play, particularly in TvP. In WoL, mech doesn't really have any frontline units capable of keeping the opponent away from tanklines--Hellions are fragile, and very reliant on kiting, which is exactly what you don't want to do if you're trying to keep the opponent from getting to your back line.
Hellbats on the other hand, aren't just substantially tougher, they can be healed, and they don't need to kite to effective shred tons of chargelots.
Like, everyone always complained in WoL about how hard Immortals own Tanks...well, Immortal dps vs Hellbats is absolute crap, and if the Hellbats have even a little support from medivac healing, Immortals basically can't punch through them. Meaning there is plenty of time to emp the Immortals, then destroy them with tank shots from distance once Hardened shields go down. Its an entirely different dynamic.
Frankly, at the moment, a max supply mech push with tanks well positioned in the second line, Hellbats/Mines up front, and a few ghosts and/or medivacs for support, is basically impossible for any Protoss ground army to break head on.
Which IMO is as it should be. Protoss has skytoss to help with mech, they don't need a ground composition that can punch right through a well-positioned mech force head on.
Your last paragraph is the answer to your 4th paragraph - skytoss is the answer. I play mech high masters in WoL and honestly I see many parts of maxed out mech in HOTS weaker than in WoL. Sure, terran received a buff mid-game with possible hellbat, siege and widow mine timings. But in many cases, when I have attempted to play the "long" game, against another HOTS Protoss, my army pretty much disintigrates to things like mass immortal, Vray and tempest and storm. Maybe you haven't checked out what prismatic alignment can do to a Thor, or even Vikings, for that matter. I don't know why so many people are even discussing the hellbat when Terran basically received no new Units in HOTS except for Widow Mines and a pre-existing unit (Helion) that can transform into a slow moving, splash unit.
I can only assume that b/c Terran was the least played race in WoL, there are many P and Z players up in arms about trying to deal with something they are not used to - it is still a brand new unit. You don't see me complaining about the Oracle that can kill my entire SCV line in seconds. Or a MSC that stops any early rax aggression or uncloak banshees...while also being able to be an offensive unit. We need to wait until beta testing is over to judge.
Your 4th paragraph is the answer to your last paragraph - skytoss is the answer. I play mech high masters in WoL and honestly I see many parts of maxed out mech in HOTS weaker than in WoL. Sure, terran received a buff mid-game with possible hellbat, siege and widow mine timings. But in many cases, when I have attempted to play the "long" game, against another HOTS Protoss, my army pretty much disintigrates to things like mass immortal, Vray and tempest and storm. Maybe you haven't checked out what prismatic alignment can do to a Thor, or even Vikings, for that matter. I don't know why so many people are even discussing the hellbat when Terran basically received no new Units in HOTS except for Widow Mines and a pre-existing unit (Helion) that can transform into a slow moving, splash unit
Skytoss should counter mech. It did in BW. I don't see anything wrong with skytoss continuing to be the answer to mech in SC2. The problem in WoL was that not only was mech not particularly strong vs. air, it also just wasn't very strong against Protoss ground. That is no longer the case.
As for T dealing with Skytoss, you neglect to mention that the Raven was also revamped. The new HSM is crazy good, and its awesome for forcing Toss to waste Void Ray Prismatic Alignment--you target Voids with HSM, and Protoss has to either pull their Voids all the way back out of range, which wastes most of their charge time, or they don't pull back and can easily lose a shitload of gas in one big explosion.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff.
Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff.
Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong.
I don't play T or Z, but currently in PvT, if a Terran has properly positioned Tanks, Mines, Hellbats with medivac support, and Ghosts once things get far enough along...its pretty much impossible to break them on the ground. The Toss ground units that owned vs. Tanks in WoL (e.g. Chargelots, Immortals) are pretty shit at killing Hellbats while they're being healed, and they just end up taking tons of tank shots while they're ineffectually trying to bust the Hellbat wall.
Mech obviously isn't good vs air though...but they do share armor upgrades with air...and the new Raven's HSM is the best anti-air weapon in the Terran arsenal and since its a spell weapon upgrades are irrelevant. You need to scout Toss carefully to make sure you catch when they start switching to air, but if you do its far from an impossible tech switch for T.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff.
Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong.
I don't play T or Z, but currently in PvT, if a Terran has properly positioned Tanks, Mines, Hellbats with medivac support, and Ghosts once things get far enough along...its pretty much impossible to break them on the ground. The Toss ground units that owned vs. Tanks in WoL (e.g. Chargelots, Immortals) are pretty shit at killing Hellbats while they're being healed, and they just end up taking tons of tank shots while they're ineffectually trying to bust the Hellbat wall.
Mech obviously isn't good vs air though...but they do share armor upgrades with air...and the new Raven's HSM is the best anti-air weapon in the Terran arsenal and since its a spell weapon upgrades are irrelevant. You need to scout Toss carefully to make sure you catch when they start switching to air, but if you do its far from an impossible tech switch for T.
I mainly meant in WoL. I can't count how many times we've heard casters or seen BW vets lament "I don't know why Terrans don't play mech! It's the strongest way to play!"
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
Not if T is already a complete enough race to have answers to the new stuff of P and Z without as many new toys.
And frankly with all changes included, with the Medivac buffs, Raven buffs, Widow mines, and hellbats, Terran has plenty of new and/or improved toys.
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
But its a fallacy to assume the "counterbuffs" to Terran must necessarily be more new units beyond what have already been added. Modifications to existing units can also do a lot--the new Raven HSM, for example, is a real game changer in a number of situations, and also fills a niche a lot of people were asking for (a buff to Terran lategame that allows them to take on opposing deathballs).
On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote: If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes.
You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
Not if T is already a complete enough race to have answers to the new stuff of P and Z without as many new toys.
And frankly with all changes included, with the Medivac buffs, Raven buffs, Widow mines, and hellbats, Terran has plenty of new and/or improved toys.
Terran doesn't have the tools to really answer what Protoss and Zerg can throw at them now. The perceived "completeness" of the race merely had to do with how small maps were and how confident Terran was at winning in the early game, in contrast to the confidence in the late game of Zerg and Protoss. That "completeness" was stripped though, without even a semblance of regret. Some of it has returned in the form of the medivac speed buff, but Terran's early and late game still suffers with all the defensive buffs and units/spells Zerg and Protoss have gained.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Because toss are used to A move and win..
they get freaked out if they have to actually Work and Micro to win an engagement..
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Thats what makes Hellbats synergize well with Tanks though--if you position them well, the Protoss play has to get well within Tank range such that they're taking Heavy fire, and then they have to stutter step around within that Tank fire to try to bring down Hellbats (who are likely being healed as well). Unlike Hellions, who had to kite backwards to deal with chargelots and other units, thus allowing them to get closer to tank, Hellbats are sturdy enough to make getting past them to Tanks tricky as hell.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing. Mech should be viable in TvP, and the synergy Hellbats provide with other factory units goes a long way towards helping with that.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Thats what makes Hellbats synergize well with Tanks though--if you position them well, the Protoss play has to get well within Tank range such that they're taking Heavy fire, and then they have to stutter step around within that Tank fire to try to bring down Hellbats (who are likely being healed as well). Unlike Hellions, who had to kite backwards to deal with chargelots and other units, thus allowing them to get closer to tank, Hellbats are sturdy enough to make getting past them to Tanks tricky as hell.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing. Mech should be viable in TvP, and the synergy Hellbats provide with other factory units goes a long way towards helping with that.
It also saves the tanks from taking the brunt of the Zealot charge, which is what normally kicks their ass. The immortals are just the guys who seal the deal at the end.
Also, immortals fighting hellbats is the like watching two people beat eachother to death with assault rifles.
The state of Mech in PvT is a real serious problem right now and I don't see how they can fix it. The main issue is that the Tempest annihilates mech, but without it, Protoss has no counter to mech. Go ahead, try and beat mass Thor/Hellbat without Tempests. It's utterly impossible. The units are too big to effectively storm and seriously outclass anything else you have. Hellbats slaughter Zealots and tank Immortal fire effortlessly. Void Rays do not work at all against many Thor, with 8+ Thor the splash damage gibs them all at once just like it does Mutalisks. Carriers also have their interceptors wiped out in seconds by the light bonus air splash.
On February 20 2013 05:32 Xequecal wrote: The state of Mech in PvT is a real serious problem right now and I don't see how they can fix it. The main issue is that the Tempest annihilates mech, but without it, Protoss has no counter to mech. Go ahead, try and beat mass Thor/Hellbat without Tempests. It's utterly impossible. The units are too big to effectively storm and seriously outclass anything else you have. Hellbats slaughter Zealots and tank Immortal fire effortlessly. Void Rays do not work at all against many Thor, with 8+ Thor the splash damage gibs them all at once just like it does Mutalisks. Carriers also have their interceptors wiped out in seconds by the light bonus air splash.
So learn to box Voidrays a move then over the Thor ball, hit hold position and turn on your beam. If Zerg can magic box (against a unit doing bonus to light) then so can you. And if they change forms a-move your voids and laugh without worrying about splash. (not that they would ever use HIP in the first place).
My point is that its too early for these kinds of debates when there's much unexplored play.
The hellbat is such an uninspired, mangled, rehashed and unbalanced piece of...work. I honestly have no idea how this unit is still in the game. I would have MUCH rathered to see them fix the warhound and keep it, then keep trying to reinvent the wheel with this garbage.
EPT
Blizz is really doing a good job at balancing HOTS. 
![[image loading]](http://www.bulletkeychainsetc.com/images/20mm_Vulcan.jpg)
