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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote: This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... whine before even test ? wow thats .... | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
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crbox
Canada1181 Posts
well yeah not to whine or anything (didn't play enough HotS to really know about balance) but hellbats as straight up fighting units seem extremely strong. A unit that can both be your main fighting unit and your main harassing unit feels kind of weird to me. I dunno about balance but I just think it's poor design. They're not necessary the main fighting unit but they fit really well into standard bio army. I'd like to see them used more with mech play than they're "tank-replacing role" as the main mech unit in bio-mech. (tl:dr; not saying medivac healing is too strong, just doesn't really make sense at all ^^) | ||
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Halozination
69 Posts
What bothers me equally much as terran is tvp. I have lost so many games because protoss right klicks 1 unit to my base (mothership core, oracle, dt) and no I am not bronze.I want to open sth like reapers or hellions or marodeurs for harras but protoss does either defend too easily with purify or even if you are allowed to harras protoss does equally well by just klicking his mothershipcore to your mineral line. Even with normal 2 base openings you are always playing on very thin ice imo. Some ideas/dreams: turrets without engeneringbay, vikings with speed boost, mothership core comes out much slower or maybe is available later, widow mines produce faster (you can't build them reactonary and if you have only 1-2 its very random if you get lucky and kill oracle), better or less energy and easier to spam autoturrets. | ||
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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
But I feel like the problem with hellbats in the first place is that if they were meant to compliment mech, especially against speed zealots in TvP, why are they biological? Bio was already a very strong composition in TvP, and the matchup was fairly balanced with the dynamic between ghost vs HT micro and colossi vs. viking micro. The hellbat's ridiculously high damage to light now makes chargelots fucking worthless if the terran decides to incorporate hellbats, even without upgrades they rip zealots apart, and marauders absolutely destroy stalkers, so if a terran goes a bio composition with hellbats incorporated, what the hell is protoss supposed to do except take to the air? (but then, behold! marines!) I mean sure colossi, archons, and HTs are the ones dealing most of the damage, but if you give terran a unit that is able to negate the meatshields for these squishy glass canons, it's going to be very very difficult for protoss to trade cost effectively. In TvZ, bio was not as strong of a comp, mainly because of fungal and banelings decimating marines, but hellbats could help bio along a bit, seeing as they basically fill the role of splash damage dealers and meat shields all in one, which in theory, would help them fulfill the role that tanks would in marine tank, but I can't say much about that since I haven't watched/played too many ZvTs in HotS against bio. I think at the very least, hellbats need to considered NOT biological, it doesn't make sense anyways. It's a fucking car, transforms into a walker, now it's suddenly biological? The hell? If you want to add back firebats, just add back firebats, don't make it some awkward transition from a hellion that just does more than double the firebat's damage. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
On February 14 2013 14:24 Jinky wrote: Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade. I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech. The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade? I think that the approach to unit speeds that Blizzard has chosen for HotS is not right. I can't say that I have any proof of this, but it feels like they put too much emphasis in great differences of speeds. The value of a harassment unit is not soley dependant on its speed. At least not the difference in speed between it and the defending units. One of the great strengths of bio is that it can always disengage from combat. One of the great strengths of speedlings is that they can always run the long way around to get surrounds or catch a drop. The game already has fast units and they are already very popular. In fact, the greatest harassment units in WoL are just those (and warped in zealots/DTs). Mutas, Phoenix and Hellions don't get to see so much use because they are almost pure harassment. It is a much bigger investment most of the time, will not necessarily do much damage and requires careful control. The biggest issue is that if harassment fails, you have no fallback, whereas two medivacs full of marines is ok against almost everything. Hellbats were meant to be slower and bulkier, thus allowing them entrance into the mainstay army for terran. This would be the fallback plan for hellion harass. I like this idea, since mech is fragile without them. A cheap and expendable unit might be just what is needed. The trouble is that in its current design, the hellbat is actually better than the old hellion at killing workers and also puts up more of a fight against potential defenders, making it a downright upgrade for harassment. The reason they had to nerf blue flame is exactly the reason they had to nerf battle hellions. The hellion with either upgrade is just way too strong in one single way. Just run into a mineral line and win. Nobody likes that. I don't know if the hellbat is good enough in a straight up fight as is. I would like to believe it is. If not, it would be simple to buff it in other ways to make up for the reduces splash. I just do not think that slowing a unit down necessarily makes it impotent when it comes to harassment and that is the issue with the current design. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On February 14 2013 14:58 crbox wrote: I like it. You can still fit 4 hellions and transform them into hidden corner. Not as viable as a early game rush, but still can be pulled later in the game. Maybe 2 med drop with 4 hellbat will become a thing later on, the medivac speed booster thing's really strong a) Just drop Widow Mines instead if you drop them "in a hidden corner" ... b) Battle Hellions move SLOWLY, so dropping them far away is USELESS. c) If you dont "cover your main base" (and too many pros dont as can be seen by Zerg who dont bother covering their main base with creep and then having problems against drops) you deserve to lose. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
Zerglings and Ultralisks come out of the same sized egg. Zerglings take up 1/2 supply each but you still only fit 8 in an overlord. Banelings are roughly the same size as zerglings and you only fit 4 in an overlord. The last one is especially pertinent and is clearly a balance choice. I like this change, it should make hellbat drops a lot less crazy. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
Since the Hellbat space increase, I've had every Terran open up against me with a Widow Mine drop instead. Every time I've seen it coming, had stalkers in place, had the photon overcharge on my main Nexus, and I still end up losing ten probes. The Medivac boosts over the stalkers and ignores the Nexus cannon and gets at least three mines down. I'm starting to think that a forge and a cannon in the mineral line is going to need to be a standard part of whatever you get after Stargate or Robo. | ||
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PhOeniX[MinD]
361 Posts
talking about nerfing i dont like swarm host! | ||
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Calm_down
8 Posts
Believe me or not, this game 3-6 month after release will be the same shit as Wol is right now. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On February 14 2013 15:39 TGalore wrote: While I think Hellbat drops were really strong (speaking as protoss here), I think it more has to do with Medivac boosters getting factory units into a place where they otherwise couldn't get in a really ridiculously fast amount of time. That's what I think should have been nerfed, not the Hellbat itself. Since the Hellbat space increase, I've had every Terran open up against me with a Widow Mine drop instead. Every time I've seen it coming, had stalkers in place, had the photon overcharge on my main Nexus, and I still end up losing ten probes. The Medivac boosts over the stalkers and ignores the Nexus cannon and gets at least three mines down. I'm starting to think that a forge and a cannon in the mineral line is going to need to be a standard part of whatever you get after Stargate or Robo. yea, the medivac is the problem, not the hellbat | ||
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cerb
Germany215 Posts
On February 14 2013 15:22 Zealously wrote: Let's see how this turns out. Yep, right. I think it's a good move, but we'll see. I think Hellbats in their current state are (too?) powerful, so this nerf comes right. If additional balancing for the Hellbat is required, it will definitely be there. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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PhOeniX[MinD]
361 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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JazVM
Germany1196 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 14 2013 13:45 Bagi wrote: I dunno, for starters I prefer to discuss the game and not what might have been. Nor do I parrot overdone arguments about mineral saturation and deathballs when clearly those aren't even related to discussion at hand. Diablo 3 related burns? Is that seriously the best you can come up with? Do us all a favor and move on to LoL already. How are they not related? aren't the balance patches about making the game a more enjoyable experience, both to play and to watch? | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 14 2013 15:58 Calm_down wrote: Retarded blizzard with retarded balance approach. Believe me or not, this game 3-6 month after release will be the same shit as Wol is right now. CALM DOWN.... get it?.. no but seriously you're right.. once the metagame has been figured out, the interest will die out pretty. Better than WoL? of course. Worthy of any hype? nope. | ||
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