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On February 14 2013 13:25 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 13:17 Patate wrote:On February 14 2013 12:48 Bagi wrote:On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote:
With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing. I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done. Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once. Please don't tell me you're actually impressed by HoTS... Please tell me you are able to contribute more to the discussion than that... Actually, judging from your post history I won't hold my breath. Why are you even on this forum, discussing this "dead game"?
Because it's worth a shot to try reasoning the people in charge of this game.
Doesn't help though when some people are satisfied with the product they're getting... must be the same people that still play Diablo 3 I guess...
The day people will need more than 3 bases to mine a good amount of minerals in a 20 minutes game,and the day the optimal way of moving an army will not be in a big ball (less unit clumping, for example), then we might have a game that will be more enjoyable to watch.
Still having little hope we will see changes someday.. but for now I'm more hyped about LoL's new champ than Blizzard's new expansion.. yup, it's gotten that bad.
And speaking of Ad Hominem.. what have you done anyways to contribute? :/
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On February 14 2013 13:26 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 12:54 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote:
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle. Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed. The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.) The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous. As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit.
User was warned for this post
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nice change  4 hellbats were OP
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The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well.
Then it completely failed to make a point because Nydus swarm host isnt available at this state of the game and would actually lose the basetrade
You cant just throw empty "Be more creative" like that, actually you can but no one care. If you think there is a simple cost-effective answer then just post it.
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On February 14 2013 13:34 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 13:26 Terrasmith wrote:On February 14 2013 12:54 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote:
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle. Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed. The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.) The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous. As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well. You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit.
Try one viking in the most likely direction and a turret in the second most likely. And then a decent number of units and kiting. Battle hellions are far slower than any stimmed unit, and pulling scvs should be an instant response anyway. Or think of other things and practice.
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On February 14 2013 13:33 Patate wrote:
And speaking of Ad Hominem.. what have you done anyways to contribute? :/
I dunno, for starters I prefer to discuss the game and not what might have been. Nor do I parrot overdone arguments about mineral saturation and deathballs when clearly those aren't even related to discussion at hand.
Diablo 3 related burns? Is that seriously the best you can come up with? Do us all a favor and move on to LoL already.
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unit clumping isn't going away. they're not intentionally going to design the units so they repel each other (talk about a game playing itself), and they're definitely not going to try to mimic brood war unit movement idiosyncrasies, that's contrived as hell, especially when the game engine has been out for what? 3 years now? if your enjoyment of sc2 is contingent on that changing you'll save yourself a lot of heartache by jumping ship right now.
i mean people in these threads saying this kind of shit make themselves out to be fighting the good fight over some critically important issue or something lol. 'write your elected representatives to get unit clumping fixed! make them listen! your voice counts!' get off it already.
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On February 14 2013 13:26 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 12:54 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote:
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle. Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed. The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.) The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous. As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well.
You didn't listen to what I've been saying in several posts on this thread. Being prepared for the drop isn't the problem; the problem is that the necessary preparations hurts the Zerg economy/future way too much for the minimal cost put in by Terran. (I'm speaking from a ZvT perspective here.)
Scouting the incoming Hellbat drop is not the problem and never was. I don't know why you bring that up: it isn't an issue. Even when pros see it coming and scouted it well beforehand, they still have a hell of a time dealing with it. It has completely to do with the timing of the drop in the game (too early), which is why I think nerfing the Hellbat in the way that Blizzard did was a move in the right direction. It slows down a 4 Hellbat drop. We'll have to see if it is enough, but I think it will, at the very least, be a big improvement.
Just so you don't construe this is a "I'm Zerg so I hate anything that is cool about Terran" kind of mentality, I will state for you that I do not think that way. I think Hellbats are great! Their particular synergy with Medivac speed-boost drops has been insane though.
And I will quote Protosnake, because he reiterates what I also have said:
On February 14 2013 13:39 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well.
Then it completely failed to make a point because Nydus swarm host isnt available at this state of the game and would actually lose the basetrade You cant just throw empty "Be more creative" like that, actually you can but no one care. If you think there is a simple cost-effective answer then just post it.
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On February 14 2013 13:41 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 13:34 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 14 2013 13:26 Terrasmith wrote:On February 14 2013 12:54 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 12:44 furerkip wrote:
I'm Terran, so I'm clearly biased towards the Terran POV, but still, I hardly see any Protoss stream that deviates much from WoL (same goes for Zerg).
You have a unit that can actually spawn units without energy or cost; why don't you nydus your opponent and send those units through there, and send your other units elsewhere?
You have a unit that has a huge range; why don't you stay on 2 base, get robo and stargate set up, then send your flying unit to harass workers with an observer? I saw someone on stream that time froze SCVs to make the mining time slower, which I thought was incredibly cool. Why don't you try that? Why don't you don't you get the MSC time freeze a medivac you spot and kill the medivac with phoenixes
Like, these ideas should be popping in your head, trying to incorporate them into this new game which no one has completely understood yet, but all I ever see on these forums are bitching about how it doesn't fit with WoL anymore. Of course it doesn't; it's a whole new puzzle. Lol, Nydus + Swarm Host by 8:00? That is all-in for Zerg. Just to counter what is supposed to be a harass? You are overlooking the fact that the Hellbat drop is based on the 1/1/1. The other races can't do that, which is why 1/1/1 has the reputation that it does. If another race tries to mimic the power of 1/1/1, then it becomes an all-in because of the economy sacrificed. The entire problem with the 4 Hellbat drop is that there is really no loss for the Terran, even if the drop fails miserably, because the opponent must make significant preparations, which hurts their economy/plans/map control. At least nerfing it into a 2 Hellbat drop allows the opponent to not destroy his/her own economy or plans just to defend what ultimately should just be harass (and if it is not simply harass, then it should be all-in at that point in the game, and cost a LOT more.) The point was that instead of whining about Terran finding a very strong harass by capitalizing on their new units, maybe the other races should get more creative with their new units as well. Defending against medivacs is nothing new. If you're getting dropped after a Terran has a Starport and Armory up, it's largely your fault for not being ready, same as in WoL. The Medivac speed + Battle Hellion just makes the drop marginally more dangerous. As for Zergs...it really isn't that hard to place overlords. You should NEVER be caught by surprise by a drop, and if your units are out of position, that's your fault and yours alone. Learn to deal with the mobility of the medivac-maybe early Mutas instead of a fast third. Your opponent went for extremely fast tech-you have no right to see it as unfair if that forces you to tech up as well. You're right, it's my fault. Let me build 6 missile turrets on every cardinal direction of my base so that your medivacs which outrun everything in the game actually get shot down. Get the fuck out with your terran bullshit. Try one viking in the most likely direction and a turret in the second most likely. And then a decent number of units and kiting. Battle hellions are far slower than any stimmed unit, and pulling scvs should be an instant response anyway. Or think of other things and practice.
Viking? You're saying that to deal with this harass, the Terran must go 1/1/1 as well, plus make Engineering Bay for a Turret? Do you realize how that would fail anyway? The Medivac would still be able to drop the Hellbats wherever it chooses before it dies because the speed-boost is so fast. You also are leaving out the fact that keeping a "decent number of units" in your base means that you are not putting any pressure on the opponent. Who is to say that the Medivac has to even commit to the drop? Why can't the Medivac just hover off to the side and wait, forcing you to leave your "decent number of units" to defend a drop that may or may not happen? Then the person doing the drop has no pressure from you and can happily expand.
Also, Hellbats aren't that slow. They have the same speed as Roaches off creep (without speed upgrade). Oh, by the way, that is the same speed as Marines (unstimmed).
I don't like talking about leagues, but you sound like you are in a lower league because you don't understand the implications of the things you says.
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Well, now Terran will go back to mine drop, at least it does less damage.
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Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability.
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This leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Dayvie mentions they were tossing that idea around, they mention it to the community, the community collectively says "That's cool, but it's not enough" then they proceed with the change, and ignore any other suggestion made. Why were we asked in the first place?
I still think this unit has issues with it not costing gas, doing too much damage, and being too buff. I also don't like how this unit has so many rules associated with it. We still have a month...let's hope their attention hasn't shifted away from this unit all together.
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Some people shouldn't really complain all that much about the Hellbat itself because at least Blizzard is TRYING to balance the unit. When people complained about the Warhound, Blizzard barely did anything with the unit to try to balance it out and they just took it out.
I understand where some people are coming from I do. But don't complain so much that they take out yet another unit from Terran. Even though they most likely wouldn't do that anyway.
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I don't think Blizzard will release another big update until after release.
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On February 14 2013 12:48 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 12:31 Valon wrote:
With this change blizzard shows they have no idea what they are doing. I think I've heard this comment used for pretty much every change they've ever done. Would be awesome to hear some reasoning for once.
The reason is the issue isn't the Hellbat drop it's the Hellbat by extension the medivac. The Hellbat is way too strong (Hight HP and armor and can be healed by medivac) does cone damage and seems to kill every ground unit. The Medivac moves way too fast. Drop a could Hellbats in a mineral line kill it. Pick up speed over to the next base and repeat. Your army can't get there in time if you split up chances are the hell bats kill a good majority of your units too. Even if you put up spores or cannons the medivac just speeds past them. If you put one in your mineral line it doesn't kill the medivac fast enough.
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On February 14 2013 14:17 lowercase wrote:
Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability.
Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade.
I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech.
The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade?
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If only the infestor had been changed this quickly!
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They couldn't change infestor so quickly because it was a cornerstone for Zerg composition in WoL, which most people think (and I do too) is broken and boring. They can nerf it further in HotS (like they did) because Zerg now can use Hydras and other mid-game units/strategies without relying on infestor.
This Hellbat nerf changes nothing about Hellbat except that now you can't do the ridiculous early and powerful Hellbat drops, which is not the point of the unit. The unit is primarily to help deal with Zealots, I believe, and also give Terran more options for other situations, like mass ling.
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On February 14 2013 14:24 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 14:17 lowercase wrote:
Nice change, but medivac speed should still be an upgrade, not a default ability. Yea, I agree, Medivac speed-boost should be an upgrade. The reason they put the speed-boost into the game in the first place is for later, to help it deal with mid-game units/abilities (muta, infestor, stalker blink, any anti-air). The fact that 1/1/1 exists (and thus Medivacs can be gotten so quickly, in early game) means that Speed-boost should require an upgrade. I also think Hellbat morph should be an upgrade as well, so that Hellbats at least cost SOME gas at some point (only 100 minerals for a Hellbat?... either drop it's Defense/Life points down or make it cost gas. You can't say "they require Armory which costs gas," because the Armory is used for other things too and will naturally would be gotten anyway because most Terrans who go Hellbat will go into mech. The other races require upgrades for powerful, functional things (5 move speed upgrades for zerg; blink, charge, warp prism speed, obs speed, etc.), so why does Medivac speed-boost and Hellbat morph not require an upgrade?
I totally agree with this post.
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Four of those things being ferried into your mineral line at ludicrous speed was absurd. Regular medivacs can be shoo'd off with good reaction time, and if you can't deal with that it's your fault. Or fast medivacs dropping units that don't 1 shot the better part of a mineral line. Since I don't have have laser eyes and lightning fingers this was killing me an awful lot.
Good on blizzard. I remember when roaches being 2 food was the end of the world; people will get over it.
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EPT
