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I still don't like how Hellbats are functioned, I just can't stand that they're bio, can be healed, but they function like mech.
Does that mean banelings hit them really hard or is that light?
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On February 14 2013 11:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
I still don't like how Hellbats are functioned, I just can't stand that they're bio, can be healed, but they function like mech.
Does that mean banelings hit them really hard or is that light?
They are classified as light. So yes, banelings do great damage against them. That's actually part of the Zerg hard counter, roach/baneling.
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Wouldn't it be simpler to just remove the biological tag from the Hellbats! Wouldn't it be a better and logical solution to make the Hellbat drops less powerful? At least for now, until the meta develops further.
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what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
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On February 14 2013 11:24 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:28 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 14 2013 09:00 Noocta wrote:On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote:
This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit. Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace. The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.) Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up). There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2. This is the same for a lot of stuff too. Widow Mines are really simple. In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player. You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW. In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown. Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2  .
Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
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On February 14 2013 11:15 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:04 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units. The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them. In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats. Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group. How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions. You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really? Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above. (CURRENTLY EDITING)
Send 4 queens in one of the bases and onle 5 roaches in the other.If he try to drop 2 in each would be even worse for him.Wont do any damage!Spore and 4 queens will kill or hurt medivac so much that the moment he get the next base,the spore there will kill it and may only one hellbat is dropped.You also must micro and pull drones if you want and believe me,this helps A LOT!!!
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On February 14 2013 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote:
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct? You also have to consider during the transforming time, any shots on the hellions are worth more damage and they can't be healed. So by the time they are done transforming, they'll either be much weaker or some will be dead. And if they try to do it with 2 medivacs to not have to transform, that's a 42 second delay on the timing. Either way, it's a subtle nerf that won't screw up every hellbat scenario.
Im pretty sure you can hit a timing 20 seconds later actually. Just build a reactor on the rax and swap it onto the starport (fifty gas takes about that long to mine on 2 geysers). This is only possible if you do rax->CC->double gas->hellbat drops, which is what I do anyways, because you have the extra gas. The only difference is a delay for the +1 upgrade i get from the armory.
Haven't tested this though so I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure about this.
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On February 14 2013 11:29 Aveng3r wrote:
what the hell is stopping people from transporting 4 hellions and then turning them into hellbats? Ive been a vocal critic of blizzard recently and this change does nothing to change my mind
Again, the fact that hellbats are one of the "slower" units in the game. You can run away from them at any time, and should do so since they are bad against buildings. The problem before the nerf is that, even if you ran away, the Terran had too much freedom to pick them back up and drop on the escaping units. Now that's not nearly as effective.
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On February 14 2013 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote:
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct? You also have to consider during the transforming time, any shots on the hellions are worth more damage and they can't be healed. So by the time they are done transforming, they'll either be much weaker or some will be dead. And if they try to do it with 2 medivacs to not have to transform, that's a 42 second delay on the timing. Either way, it's a subtle nerf that won't screw up every hellbat scenario.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that hellbats CAN be healed while they are transforming, I'm pretty sure this means they can withstand more damage. I made a mental note of this during a game. Worth popping into unit tester but im dead tired right now.
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Ugh, As a protoss player Hellbats are extremely powerful, however I feel that it is defendable if you arent super greedy which is the standard metagame these days... Ah well guess blizzard feels the need to change the game without letting us figure it out on our own.
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On February 14 2013 11:34 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:15 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 11:04 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units. The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them. In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats. Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group. How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions. You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really? Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above. (CURRENTLY EDITING) Send 4 queens in one of the bases and onle 5 roaches in the other.If he try to drop 2 in each would be even worse for him.Wont do any damage!Spore and 4 queens will kill or hurt medivac so much that the moment he get the next base,the spore there will kill it and may only one hellbat is dropped.You also must micro and pull drones if you want and believe me,this helps A LOT!!!
What happens when the Terran drops all 4 Hellbats in the first base (where the 4 queens and spore is)? Yeah, the Medivac may die, but the queens don't do enough damage to kill the Hellbats quickly at all (especially since they will be shooting at the Medivac even after the Hellbats have been dropped, probably attacking the queens if the Zerg pulled the drones away), and more than likely the Hellbats will kill the queens first (unless they transfuse, but that is unlikely since Queens won't have spare energy that early, and even if they do, then that is injects/tumors lost).
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On February 14 2013 11:32 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:24 Goldfish wrote:On February 14 2013 10:28 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 14 2013 09:00 Noocta wrote:On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote:
This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit. Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace. The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.) Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up). There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2. This is the same for a lot of stuff too. Widow Mines are really simple. In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player. You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW. In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown. Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 . Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf.
Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again.
About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too.
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Cool, good choice. however it just clumps the hellbat even more. it's becoming a mess.
Basically all terran mech units can now transform in hots. kinda of a lame idea actually..
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I think this is a bad idea, there need to be super-strong drop options for Terran. The problem I think needs to be address is the hyper-mobility of the medivac. It has no drawbacks for use.
I think a better solution would be to not allow unloading during a speed drop, and that choosing to unload would cancel the boosters and start the cooldown. I also think that boosting medivacs should not be able to turn sharply, and that a sharp turn would also cancel the boost and start the cooldown. This would prevent medivacs boosting in, dropping in the mineral line, and then picking up and still being able to boost to the fleeing workers. Plus, the medivac looks ridiculous boosting back and forth on a dime.
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As a Protoss I have nothing to complain about here.
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On February 14 2013 11:25 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
I still don't like how Hellbats are functioned, I just can't stand that they're bio, can be healed, but they function like mech.
Does that mean banelings hit them really hard or is that light? They are classified as light. So yes, banelings do great damage against them. That's actually part of the Zerg hard counter, roach/baneling.
There could be something to a couple of banelings mixed with a few roaches. Requires less larvae (which can be used for Drones), and less supply. But I would hate to see my banelings connect just for the Hellbat to be healed by the Medivac(s). Would have to test it.
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On February 14 2013 11:51 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:32 aksfjh wrote:On February 14 2013 11:24 Goldfish wrote:On February 14 2013 10:28 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 14 2013 09:00 Noocta wrote:On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote:
This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit. Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace. The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.) Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up). There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2. This is the same for a lot of stuff too. Widow Mines are really simple. In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player. You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW. In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown. Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 . Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf. Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again. About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too.
I didn't say it was super hard, but it IS micro. It's not just a-move, not even at the bare minimum.
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Guess they wanted to keep the healing? still a decent change.. I admit I've only seen the drop a couple times, but, DRG looked helpless.. haha.. not saying he did everything he could of to defend, anyway.. looked crazy though.
:D
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I like that you can still choose to take 4 Hellions if you want to transform them into Hellbots once you've dropped them, but that in turn gives the defending player more time to react. There's an actual choice. Do you:
a.) Take 2 Hellbats
b.) Take 4 Hellions, then turn them into Hellbats
c.) Take 4 Hellions and continue to use them as Hellions
Tactically, its more interesting, and I think the flexibility of it feels very Terran.
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On February 14 2013 12:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:51 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 11:32 aksfjh wrote:On February 14 2013 11:24 Goldfish wrote:On February 14 2013 10:28 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 14 2013 09:00 Noocta wrote:On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote:
This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit. Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace. The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.) Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term but I just made it up). There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2. This is the same for a lot of stuff too. Widow Mines are really simple. In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player. You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW. In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown. Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2 . Um, what? The only units hellbats can catch up to while a-moving are thors, HTs, and queens off creep. If you a-move hellbats, you're going to get kited to death and deal 0 damage. You HAVE to do drop micro to get the results that we've seen, the results that prompted the nerf. Drop micro isn't that hard. Terran's need to stop praising themselves as if they are the micro-messiahs. It's not hard to drop 4 Hellbats on a fleeing worker line and fry them, and then pick the Hellbats back up if it fails and scoot on over to the other base and drop on the workers again. About the only thing that is hard to micro with Terran is Marine splitting and Hellion harass, but other races have their micro to do too. I didn't say it was super hard, but it IS micro. It's not just a-move, not even at the bare minimum.
Well, it's pretty damn easy. Speed-boost Medivac dropping some Hellbats is some of the easiest micro I can think of, and it is about as close to "A-move" as you can get. Okay, so instead of the one button you have to push for A-move (i.e. "A"), the drop requires you push the Boost button and then the Drop-click. Okay, 1 button (boost) and then 1 button targeting the medivac (drop). I think even Silver league and up can handle that. The point is: micro is not a factor in the Hellbat drop as it is currently (4 Hellbats in 1 speed-boosted Medivac). For the amount of damage it does, it is unreasonable, even IF it took a lot of micro to do.
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