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On February 19 2013 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think people are really underestimating how much Hellbats are gonna change mech play, particularly in TvP. In WoL, mech doesn't really have any frontline units capable of keeping the opponent away from tanklines--Hellions are fragile, and very reliant on kiting, which is exactly what you don't want to do if you're trying to keep the opponent from getting to your back line.
Hellbats on the other hand, aren't just substantially tougher, they can be healed, and they don't need to kite to effective shred tons of chargelots.
Like, everyone always complained in WoL about how hard Immortals own Tanks...well, Immortal dps vs Hellbats is absolute crap, and if the Hellbats have even a little support from medivac healing, Immortals basically can't punch through them. Meaning there is plenty of time to emp the Immortals, then destroy them with tank shots from distance once Hardened shields go down. Its an entirely different dynamic.
Frankly, at the moment, a max supply mech push with tanks well positioned in the second line, Hellbats/Mines up front, and a few ghosts and/or medivacs for support, is basically impossible for any Protoss ground army to break head on.
Which IMO is as it should be. Protoss has skytoss to help with mech, they don't need a ground composition that can punch right through a well-positioned mech force head on.
Your last paragraph is the answer to your 4th paragraph - skytoss is the answer. I play mech high masters in WoL and honestly I see many parts of maxed out mech in HOTS weaker than in WoL. Sure, terran received a buff mid-game with possible hellbat, siege and widow mine timings. But in many cases, when I have attempted to play the "long" game, against another HOTS Protoss, my army pretty much disintigrates to things like mass immortal, Vray and tempest and storm. Maybe you haven't checked out what prismatic alignment can do to a Thor, or even Vikings, for that matter. I don't know why so many people are even discussing the hellbat when Terran basically received no new Units in HOTS except for Widow Mines and a pre-existing unit (Helion) that can transform into a slow moving, splash unit.
I can only assume that b/c Terran was the least played race in WoL, there are many P and Z players up in arms about trying to deal with something they are not used to - it is still a brand new unit. You don't see me complaining about the Oracle that can kill my entire SCV line in seconds. Or a MSC that stops any early rax aggression or uncloak banshees...while also being able to be an offensive unit. We need to wait until beta testing is over to judge.
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Your 4th paragraph is the answer to your last paragraph - skytoss is the answer. I play mech high masters in WoL and honestly I see many parts of maxed out mech in HOTS weaker than in WoL. Sure, terran received a buff mid-game with possible hellbat, siege and widow mine timings. But in many cases, when I have attempted to play the "long" game, against another HOTS Protoss, my army pretty much disintigrates to things like mass immortal, Vray and tempest and storm. Maybe you haven't checked out what prismatic alignment can do to a Thor, or even Vikings, for that matter. I don't know why so many people are even discussing the hellbat when Terran basically received no new Units in HOTS except for Widow Mines and a pre-existing unit (Helion) that can transform into a slow moving, splash unit
Skytoss should counter mech. It did in BW. I don't see anything wrong with skytoss continuing to be the answer to mech in SC2. The problem in WoL was that not only was mech not particularly strong vs. air, it also just wasn't very strong against Protoss ground. That is no longer the case.
As for T dealing with Skytoss, you neglect to mention that the Raven was also revamped. The new HSM is crazy good, and its awesome for forcing Toss to waste Void Ray Prismatic Alignment--you target Voids with HSM, and Protoss has to either pull their Voids all the way back out of range, which wastes most of their charge time, or they don't pull back and can easily lose a shitload of gas in one big explosion.
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On February 19 2013 09:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff.
Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong.
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On February 19 2013 09:24 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 09:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff. Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong.
I don't play T or Z, but currently in PvT, if a Terran has properly positioned Tanks, Mines, Hellbats with medivac support, and Ghosts once things get far enough along...its pretty much impossible to break them on the ground. The Toss ground units that owned vs. Tanks in WoL (e.g. Chargelots, Immortals) are pretty shit at killing Hellbats while they're being healed, and they just end up taking tons of tank shots while they're ineffectually trying to bust the Hellbat wall.
Mech obviously isn't good vs air though...but they do share armor upgrades with air...and the new Raven's HSM is the best anti-air weapon in the Terran arsenal and since its a spell weapon upgrades are irrelevant. You need to scout Toss carefully to make sure you catch when they start switching to air, but if you do its far from an impossible tech switch for T.
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On February 19 2013 09:30 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 09:24 aksfjh wrote:On February 19 2013 09:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. False. That was simply a myth similar to the myth that "the Zerg army is virtually melee" (also false; the Zerg army only has 3 melee units total). As it currently stands Terran has the least amount of stuff. Similar to the myth that Zerg has to be on more bases to be considered "even." And the myth that Terran mech (and tanks) is really strong. I don't play T or Z, but currently in PvT, if a Terran has properly positioned Tanks, Mines, Hellbats with medivac support, and Ghosts once things get far enough along...its pretty much impossible to break them on the ground. The Toss ground units that owned vs. Tanks in WoL (e.g. Chargelots, Immortals) are pretty shit at killing Hellbats while they're being healed, and they just end up taking tons of tank shots while they're ineffectually trying to bust the Hellbat wall. Mech obviously isn't good vs air though...but they do share armor upgrades with air...and the new Raven's HSM is the best anti-air weapon in the Terran arsenal and since its a spell weapon upgrades are irrelevant. You need to scout Toss carefully to make sure you catch when they start switching to air, but if you do its far from an impossible tech switch for T.
I mainly meant in WoL. I can't count how many times we've heard casters or seen BW vets lament "I don't know why Terrans don't play mech! It's the strongest way to play!"
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On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3.
Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
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On February 19 2013 11:07 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now. Not if T is already a complete enough race to have answers to the new stuff of P and Z without as many new toys.
And frankly with all changes included, with the Medivac buffs, Raven buffs, Widow mines, and hellbats, Terran has plenty of new and/or improved toys.
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On February 19 2013 11:07 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now.
But its a fallacy to assume the "counterbuffs" to Terran must necessarily be more new units beyond what have already been added. Modifications to existing units can also do a lot--the new Raven HSM, for example, is a real game changer in a number of situations, and also fills a niche a lot of people were asking for (a buff to Terran lategame that allows them to take on opposing deathballs).
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On February 19 2013 13:50 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 11:07 SolidMoose wrote:On February 18 2013 22:52 Apolo wrote:On February 17 2013 05:50 iky43210 wrote:
If you take medivacs speed away from terran, then WoL -> HOTS for terran = no changes. You're assuming T, Z and P were on equal footing in terms of things they have in WoL. I remember seeing a poll where almost everyone agreed T felt like the most complete race. It was a mistake of Blizzard because now in order to make things equal for all 3, T need to have less things added than P and Z, but that's the way to go. In the next expansion, if Blizz makes things right, it should be equal for all 3. Completeness has nothing to do with anything. If we're assuming WoL is balanced, adding things to P and Z require that T needs something to answer those buffs. This "completeness" argument is just some weird excuse for P and Z to say they are weaker when, as WoL is finally finishing, Zerg is clearly the dominant race right now. Not if T is already a complete enough race to have answers to the new stuff of P and Z without as many new toys. And frankly with all changes included, with the Medivac buffs, Raven buffs, Widow mines, and hellbats, Terran has plenty of new and/or improved toys.
Terran doesn't have the tools to really answer what Protoss and Zerg can throw at them now. The perceived "completeness" of the race merely had to do with how small maps were and how confident Terran was at winning in the early game, in contrast to the confidence in the late game of Zerg and Protoss. That "completeness" was stripped though, without even a semblance of regret. Some of it has returned in the form of the medivac speed buff, but Terran's early and late game still suffers with all the defensive buffs and units/spells Zerg and Protoss have gained.
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On February 15 2013 23:28 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine. That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT. Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Because toss are used to A move and win..
they get freaked out if they have to actually Work and Micro to win an engagement..
Kite? protoss dont even know taht word!
User was warned for this post
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Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Thats what makes Hellbats synergize well with Tanks though--if you position them well, the Protoss play has to get well within Tank range such that they're taking Heavy fire, and then they have to stutter step around within that Tank fire to try to bring down Hellbats (who are likely being healed as well). Unlike Hellions, who had to kite backwards to deal with chargelots and other units, thus allowing them to get closer to tank, Hellbats are sturdy enough to make getting past them to Tanks tricky as hell.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing. Mech should be viable in TvP, and the synergy Hellbats provide with other factory units goes a long way towards helping with that.
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On February 20 2013 02:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Thats what makes Hellbats synergize well with Tanks though--if you position them well, the Protoss play has to get well within Tank range such that they're taking Heavy fire, and then they have to stutter step around within that Tank fire to try to bring down Hellbats (who are likely being healed as well). Unlike Hellions, who had to kite backwards to deal with chargelots and other units, thus allowing them to get closer to tank, Hellbats are sturdy enough to make getting past them to Tanks tricky as hell. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing. Mech should be viable in TvP, and the synergy Hellbats provide with other factory units goes a long way towards helping with that.
It also saves the tanks from taking the brunt of the Zealot charge, which is what normally kicks their ass. The immortals are just the guys who seal the deal at the end.
Also, immortals fighting hellbats is the like watching two people beat eachother to death with assault rifles.
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The state of Mech in PvT is a real serious problem right now and I don't see how they can fix it. The main issue is that the Tempest annihilates mech, but without it, Protoss has no counter to mech. Go ahead, try and beat mass Thor/Hellbat without Tempests. It's utterly impossible. The units are too big to effectively storm and seriously outclass anything else you have. Hellbats slaughter Zealots and tank Immortal fire effortlessly. Void Rays do not work at all against many Thor, with 8+ Thor the splash damage gibs them all at once just like it does Mutalisks. Carriers also have their interceptors wiped out in seconds by the light bonus air splash.
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On February 20 2013 05:32 Xequecal wrote:
The state of Mech in PvT is a real serious problem right now and I don't see how they can fix it. The main issue is that the Tempest annihilates mech, but without it, Protoss has no counter to mech. Go ahead, try and beat mass Thor/Hellbat without Tempests. It's utterly impossible. The units are too big to effectively storm and seriously outclass anything else you have. Hellbats slaughter Zealots and tank Immortal fire effortlessly. Void Rays do not work at all against many Thor, with 8+ Thor the splash damage gibs them all at once just like it does Mutalisks. Carriers also have their interceptors wiped out in seconds by the light bonus air splash.
So learn to box Voidrays a move then over the Thor ball, hit hold position and turn on your beam. If Zerg can magic box (against a unit doing bonus to light) then so can you. And if they change forms a-move your voids and laugh without worrying about splash. (not that they would ever use HIP in the first place).
My point is that its too early for these kinds of debates when there's much unexplored play.
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The hellbat is such an uninspired, mangled, rehashed and unbalanced piece of...work.
I honestly have no idea how this unit is still in the game. I would have MUCH rathered to see them fix the warhound and keep it, then keep trying to reinvent the wheel with this garbage.
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EPT
