|
United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2013 10:17 avilo wrote:
Good change but they need to do the same to the oracle. Having something come into your mineral line and burst down 20 workers in less than 2 seconds is terrible for gameplay.
Could you exaggerate more? It's 1 worker every 2 seconds. 25 damage vs light every second. You've over-estimated the damage by a factor of 20. I suppose that's blizzard seconds, so if you want we could instead say 1.45 seconds per kill if you really want to go that route (so you've only over-estimated it by a factor of 14.5), but it's not remotely on the same level, and oracles are far easier to defend against.
|
United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2013 10:44 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:41 JacobNX01a wrote:
this still isn't enough, having a mineral only unit that deals that much splash damage and can still be healed by medivacs is just ridiculous it's also a unit which requires the armory to build, which is consistently and constantly ignored.
That's mostly irrelevant, you're going to get an armory anyway unless you're doing a 1 base or 2 base all-in. It just requires that you do it a little bit sooner than you might otherwise do so, but you are by no means required to do so and still make use of hellbats.
|
On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games.
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
|
On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I didn't say Zerg should be allowed to drone to the max. I said that the cost (especially the hidden costs) for defending what should be "harass" is ridiculous and puts the Zerg too far behind (or rather, lets the Terran get too far ahead).
I think this nerf to Hellbat might be just the right answer, simply because it will require less defense from Zerg but still require more defense than a handful of lings. However, the patch really only delays this kind of Hellbat harass by a bit (less than a minute for the extra Medivac required), so we'll have to see if it is enough. By the way, with 2 Medivacs, now there is double the healing.... So I don't know how much of a nerf this is, essentially delaying the drop for less than a minute so that it can then hit with double healing.
Also, if Hellbats are so high-tech, why do they cost only 100 minerals apiece?
|
good change. hellbat drop was too strong. thx blizz
|
Jinky thanks for that well thought out post, don't let these people get on your nerves. You specifically said you ARENT SURE - and will have to test it out to see if now this fixes what before was a huge problem for zerg. Your queens & roach warren is nearly mandatory these days anyway, and hopefully now it won't require as many as 5 roaches per base. I think what the other guy was saying is that he finds it absurd that zerg can get away with a "handful of lings" combined with "siege queens" defending terran's innate ability of early harass.
Zerg infrastructure can also bounce back way better assuming your queen doesnt die, than lets say protoss for example.
I would like to hear more from protosses about how they perceive this change, and how they WERE handling it previously (as someone said, the change happened so quick, not all of us are even sure if it was being handled well previously).
|
On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
I don't have problem with making units (roaches, zerglings, banglings) to counter a drop in the early game. My only beef is that with the medivac's speedboost, the drop has great mobility. Zerg's only good counter units against hellbats are queen and roaches which are slow. Zerg's only speedy units are zerglings (with speed upgrade)..but zerglings roast easily against hellbat. Banglings....yeah right....
Let say, zerg has a main and an exp and roaches are protecting the mineral line. Since roaches can't go one on one against hellbats, you need more than 4 roaches to deal with one drop of 4 hellbats. Since roaches are so slow, medivac can bounce around the main and the exp so easily, zerg players have to spend so much more on defense to deal with a drop.
We can talk about other defenses..queens (so slow off creep plus not very effective against hellbats and takes forever to kill a medivac), spines and spores (you need more than one to stop a drop)...then it makes zerg very defensive and static.
Plus, as others mention, hellbat costs no gas. Roaches costs gas.
|
On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units.
The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them.At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats.Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group.
IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions.
You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind.You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really?
|
On February 14 2013 10:56 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units. I didn't say Zerg should be allowed to drone to the max. I said that the cost (especially the hidden costs) for defending what should be "harass" is ridiculous and puts the Zerg too far behind (or rather, lets the Terran get too far ahead). I think this nerf to Hellbat might be just the right answer, simply because it will require less defense from Zerg but still require more defense than a handful of lings. However, the patch really only delays this kind of Hellbat harass by a bit (less than a minute for the extra Medivac required), so we'll have to see if it is enough. By the way, with 2 Medivacs, now there is double the healing.... So I don't know how much of a nerf this is, essentially delaying the drop for less than a minute so that it can then hit with double healing. Also, if Hellbats are so high-tech, why do they cost only 100 minerals apiece?
Speedbanelings are almost same tech,(Lair,baneling nest,baneling speed) so why they cost only 50 min 25 gas???? Come on...Incredible!!!
|
On February 14 2013 11:02 abei1234 wrote:
Jinky thanks for that well thought out post, don't let these people get on your nerves. You specifically said you ARENT SURE - and will have to test it out to see if now this fixes what before was a huge problem for zerg. Your queens roach warren is nearly mandatory these days anyway, and hopefully now it won't require as many as 5 roaches per base.
Zerg infrastructure can also bounce back way better assuming your queen doesnt die, than lets say protoss for example. Would like to hear more from protosses about how they perceive this change, and how they WERE handling it previously (as someone said, the change happened so quick, not all of us are even sure if it was being handled well previously)
Thanks for the sensible input.
Yah, I would consider the queens/roach warren as mandatory/gimmes, but so is the Factory (ie. if Terran is going the fac route... if not going early fac, Zerg is probably not getting a Warren), so those things kind of equal out.
|
On February 14 2013 11:03 BigRedDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:
Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units. I don't have problem with making units (roaches, zerglings, banglings) to counter a drop in the early game. My only beef is that with the medivac's speedboost, the drop has great mobility. Zerg's only good counter units against hellbats are queen and roaches which are slow. Zerg's only speedy units are zerglings (with speed upgrade)..but zerglings roast easily against hellbat. Banglings....yeah right.... Let say, zerg has a main and an exp and roaches are protecting the mineral line. Since roaches can't go one on one against hellbats, you need more than 4 roaches to deal with one drop of 4 hellbats. Since roaches are so slow, medivac can bounce around the main and the exp so easily, zerg players have to spend so much more on defense to deal with a drop. We can talk about other defenses..queens (so slow off creep plus not very effective against hellbats and takes forever to kill a medivac), spines and spores (you need more than one to stop a drop)...then it makes zerg very defensive and static. Plus, as others mention, hellbat costs no gas. Roaches costs gas.
Nice POV there,but then: Marines costs no gas.Banelings costs gas. Dont you think this es even worse? And guess what? Marines shoot AIR!!!! WTF? How can this unit be so OP and imbalanced...but I suppose is ok for you...
|
|
|
Good change, considering that 2 hellbats still have the worker-killing power of 4+ hellions.
|
On February 14 2013 11:04 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 10:51 Lunareste wrote:On February 14 2013 10:47 Jinky wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Well, let's look at the numbers and what actually is going on here: Zerg costs2 queens (you'll get these anyway, but they still factor in for the necessary larvae to get roaches, and they also help defend) 1 roach warren 10 roaches (5 per base, assuming 2 bases mining at this point in game) *hidden cost of 11 drones used/lost-- (ie. roach warren uses a drone, 10 roaches that could have been drones) = 1200 minerals / 250 gas (and 11 drones lost as roaches/warren) Terran costs1 factory w/ reactor 1 armory 1 starport 4 hellbats 1 medivac = 1000 minerals / 450 gas Most of the Terran expense goes toward infrastructure which will be used immediately for the midgame and also throughout the rest of the game. Most of the Zerg expense goes into Roaches instead of infrastructure, plus the hidden cost of all the drones that are essentially "pre-killed" (ie. larvae forced to be used on a stupid number of roaches instead of on larvae). So, if the Zerg does this roach defense, it is roughly equal to the Terran cost directly, but the hidden costs are too much: the Terran gets great infrastructure, forces the Zerg to stay at home for quite a while, and the Zerg loses out drastically in infrastructure and economy that it should have been building up more. Meanwhile, as we have seen how the pro games go, the Terran is happily expanding behind this while the Zerg is running around trying to keep its drones alive. If the Zerg survives, he looks up and sees that the Terran is on 3 bases with great infrastructure compared to his own 3 bases with minimal army and not enough drones. Do the real math before postulating with such conviction. I think this hellbat nerf is headed in the right direction because it won't require Zerg to have to invest so much in defense against what should essentially be "harass." It might be just enough to do the trick. We'll have to see how it plays out in the high-level games. Well the real problem with what you're saying here is that Zerg SHOULD HAVE TO sacrifice larva and make some kind of attacking units, instead of being allowed to drone to max saturation every game, ESPECIALLY when their opponent is attacking them with high tech units. The maths are OK,but 10 Roaches?No.You build just 5 and use them. In your original post that I responded to, you said 5 roaches per base, so I assumed Zerg would be mining on 2 bases at this point in the game, thus 10 roaches. As mentioned by others (and as seen in pro grames), roaches are too slow to keep up with a speed-boost Medivac, so 5 roaches can't reasonably defend both bases ... plus this depends on the map being such that the main and nat are very close to allow for this.At this point is totally possible to got 4 queens and one spore in each base,so if u see him coming send there queens to try snipe the medivac and roaches in the other base.If he dont wanna drop in the first one and escapes(barelly) the roaches will wait for him in the next base and the spore,so the medivac will die yes or yes.You can also pull drones as every race does,no matter the drop you are suffering.Being so slow,Hellbats wont kill anything.He can also micro them and try drop them over running workers,but this will only give time Queens to snipe the medivac and as well the roaches the Hellbats. Again, speed-boost Medivac is so fast that Queens can't kill the Medivac before the Hellbats get dropped... and we see often that the Hellbats just kill the queen if she is undefended. Plus, who is to say that the Terran won't drop 2 Hellbats in main and then 2 in the natural. Easy to do. We also see in pro games that even if they pull their drones away, it is very easy to still drop the Hellbats right on the fleeing workers, and those workers melt quick.Its huge risk for Terran,while roaches can be used to control map,killing the usual hellion group. How is it huge risk for Terran? 500 minerals / 100 gas. And no, the Zerg does not get map control, he is stuck in his base defending this drop, and afterward the roaches are too slow to get in the Terran's face at his own base. These Hellbat drops keep the Zerg locked in its base, spending on a significant amount of defense early on; even if it fails miserably, the Terran is not behind at all because the Terran was expanding like a troll at the same time, unthreatened by the Zerg.IF Terran is on 3 bases after this drop,then he was going for 1-1-1 into 3 CC build and none of his expos will be safe,so you continue building roaches+lings and will deny any of his expansions. By sacrificing so much economy in favor of defense, the Zerg can't actually push the Terran who will have Tanks by then and/or marauders and more Hellbats. The only thing Zerg can do after this kind of defense against the Hellbat drop is to instantly make a LOT of drones, hopefully saturating his 3rd base.... and by then, when he actually can start making army units, Terran is solidly sitting on 3 bases. You should watch more pro games on this, because this is how it has been playing out. An immediate roach-ling counterattack, at best, will deny the Terran's 3rd for a while, but that means the Zerg's economy is weak because he invested heavily in an army, and the Terran is sitting on 2-bases with 3 or 4 orbitals(MULEs), vastly out-mining the Zerg who will be spending money on trying to saturate his 3rd and catch up. Once he has caught up, the Terran army will roll over him.You cant just add the "hidden losses" as larvae and drones not built when you talk about early aggression.You lose this drones,but save much more and push your enemy behind. Okay, this is just ignorance about the mechanics behind Zerg economy/army. Every larva a Zerg uses for an army unit is a larva not used on drones. Zerg sacrifices economy for army. There is a fine balance Zerg must do. Every larva used for an army unit instead of a drone (especially this early in the game) hurts the Zerg economy "exponentially". Terran and Protoss are not like this at all and do not have a parallel to compare to. You still on 2-3 bases and he only 1,maybe 2 or the 3 CC but,no way to expand out of his main.Its the same as early bio drop or BFH drop.If you fail to do damage YOU ARE BEHIND.No matter what cost for Zerg. I already talked about this; you are repeating yourself.Come on,what do you all want?Defend such a huge and dangerous drop without sacrifice any drone??? No, I didn't say that. I think a few roaches and a couple of spores is reasonable, plus the queens which the Zerg would already have. The "greedy zerg" misnomer came about because people don't understand the Zerg larvae mechanic. Zerg HAS to make a lot of drones: to keep up in economy (vs MULEs), to eventually make an army that is competitive (vs superior units of Terran and vastly superior units/army of Protoss), and of course to make buildings which uses up drones.Can T stop 7 gate expanding in the natural? Blink Stalker rush on Cloud Kingdom with the natural without lift?? Really? I don't know much about PvT.
Okay, I'll spend some time editing this post to hit on all of your points. The gist of what I will say is this: You don't seem to understand Zerg mechanics (economy, army, gameplay, etc.). See my responses to your points above. My responses are in bold.
|
Will helions still be 2 slots? If so I think this only changes where terrans have to drop, the builds still going to be effective. Going to be interesting to see where it ends up.
|
Well.. beating Zerg has been fun.
|
These are the changes they're doing when there is only a month left before this game is released? I'm not sure what to say anymore... I guess yay only 2 battlehellions per drop now...?
I just don't understand why you'd do a whole patch solely on this when there is so much other stuff .. idk anymore d00d @_@;;
|
On February 14 2013 11:10 Dvriel wrote:
Nice POV there,but then: Marines costs no gas.Banelings costs gas. Dont you think this es even worse? And guess what? Marines shoot AIR!!!! WTF? How can this unit be so OP and imbalanced...but I suppose is ok for you...
Well, one good bangling mine can take out a few marines..so i think that's pretty balance 
|
I guess this is a good change, better than nerfing medivacs.
|
On February 14 2013 10:28 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 09:00 Noocta wrote:On February 14 2013 08:39 Vinand wrote:
This only is not enough... right at this moment, hellbats are waaayyy too powerful for the 100 minerals that they cost... Tell that to 3 mines ultra fast 75 mineral vulture. Being powerfull and cheap is fine for this kind of unit. Exactly Yet another example of a BW unit that was at least as powerful as its SC2 counterpart and everyone though BW was the most well balanced game in the universe. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard that they deal with you whining twerps with such grace.
The difference between Hellion / Hellbats and Vultures is that you need a lot more skill to use a Vulture properly while Hellion / Hellbat is just an a-move unit.
(That's the same for a lot of stuff in SC2. The Mutalisk is probably the biggest example, considered the best unit in all of BW but it required a lot of practice to use them effectively.)
Idra mentioned this before and Artosis sort of mentioned it on SotG recently (when he talked about Zerg who only knew Muta Micro winning stuff in BW) but in BW, the "skill room" is bigger (yes, not sure if skill room is the right term or not, and it is something I sort of made up).
There are many different ways to control units and win in BW than in SC2.
This is the same for a lot of stuff too.
Widow Mines are really simple.
In BW, Spider Mines required more skill and thought for both the player using them and the opposing player.
You could defuse Spider Mines (attacking them before they explode) in BW.
In SC2, you can't really do anything about Widow Mines besides just send 1 unit to take the hit, than wait for the cooldown.
Well anyway, this is just a rant on how they take some BW units and sort of dumb them down in SC2  . (I do really like the Medivac and tech and reactor labs swapping though. These are good examples of them making boring or simple units/structures more fun in SC2 compared to BW.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
