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On February 14 2013 09:00 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I don't see how this changes much. If I was a smart terran, I would just put 1 hellbat and 2 hellions in the dropship, and then have the huge aoe and dps of the hellbat with the chasing power of the hellion. And if things get sticky I'd just transform the hellions to hellbats and it's the same problem all over again. Or I could move 2 hellions close to or into the enemy base and then transform them into hellbats while the other two hellbats are in the medivac being dropped in the mineral line. Man the the potential for abuse with hellbats is just off the charts lol. I guess what I listed takes a lot of skill, but it's shows how broken the potential of early hellbats are.
It isn't as simple as you make it out to be. You conjecture that you can easily spare the APM to do all this, *and* macro in your base while this is all happening.
One hellbat alone in the mineral line isn't going to do the damage you think it would. DPS of the hellions running around trying to intercept drones is not a lot - it takes how many shots from regular hellions to roast drones? Even assuming that you're targetting only the drones weakened from the hellbat attack and not the drones simply doing a retreat.
meanwhile that hellbat is lumbering around not able to really do anything, unless you can *also*, in between microing the 2 hellions, quickly load the hellbat into the dropship, hit Boost, and drop him where you think those running drones are headed.
You say you "guess" this takes a lot of skill. Well no need to guess. It's very APM expensive to pull all this off, AND keep up building supply depots, more production facilities and don't forget to expand behind this attack.
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On February 14 2013 09:38 Beakyboo wrote:
Hellbats are such an odd unit now. Hellions transform into hellbats and magically turn biological and now magically take up more room in medivacs too. I wish they'd find less awkward ways to make this unit work.
Well, lore wise you can always say that hellions, while rearranging into hellbats, stretch themselves and occupy a bigger volume, they are less compact, hence 4 cargo space.
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On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote:
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct?
Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage.
Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
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To all the people saying this isn't enough, how do you nerf something without totally obliterating it from the game? Think about it. 2 hellbats fully-formed or 4 that will take a few seconds to transform in to hellbats. Then! there's also no way to pick up all 4 if they're in danger, terran can only pick up 2. So there's a loss.
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On February 14 2013 09:43 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 09:34 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:26 nomyx wrote:On February 14 2013 09:10 Dvriel wrote:On February 14 2013 09:06 RubixRambo wrote:On February 14 2013 08:44 Dvriel wrote:
REally stupid change!!! After watching everybody not even trying to learn how to defend this,they just change the hellbat in the medivac and feel OK??? Come on,Change infestor took an year and if we talk about Terran its only a week???Why Blizzard,why? So sad...I feel so sorry if even Pros werent trying to defend well,just whining... First off, it wont change the game that much. It will just prevent some earlier timings that can be extremely cost efficient. Secondly, every Zerg has been trying to figure out how to defend this, because every Terran does it in every ZvT. But without hurting your econ so drastically by throwing down a few spines and spores, there isn't much to be done with an early hellbat drop. Lastly, the infestor nerff came when they could supplement other units in so that the Zerg wouldn't just die. With that said, as a Zerg player I found it really frustrating to have army comps centered around one unit for all match ups. 8 mins is "early timing"??? I wroti this 1000 times in other threads and will continue: Terran need Factory,Starport,Medivac and Armory to do this drop.All this costs much more than one Roach Warren and 5 Roaches per base,because this amount of them kils the hellbats easy and fast enough,but really,if you see your enemy going for 8 min heavi bio drop,would you still making only drones??? You probably go for Baneling nest and heavy lings.Spines and spores arent the answer to this drop. Exactly, Hellbats are Hive / Fleet beacon - Robo Bay - Dark Shrine - Templar tech in their levels Hive comes after Lair and Infestation pit. Fleet Bacon after Cyber Core and Star Gate Dark Shrne after Cyber core and Twilight council Its pretty much the same Indeed, Rax->Factory->Starport->Armory
Starport and Armory can be built in parallel, All the other examples have a sequential dependence.
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On February 14 2013 09:49 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote:
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct? Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage. Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
Yeah, it seems like the perfect call TBH. You can still get the 4 into the base in hellion form but the nerf is in the transofmration. Then terran will always lose at least 2 hellbats if he needs immediate evac.
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To all the people saying they could think of better ideas, Hellbats still need to be nerfed, etc.
No offense but you guys don't understand much about the balance in the game. Just watch how this works out. I can guarantee a large part of the issue will be fixed, while still leaving hellbat/medivac both viable units, and their combined synergy micro as a viable strat, just not "random" to defend against.
Watch the next round of Pro games and the results in comparison. That will speak volumes.
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At least! Hellbats drops have been nerf. I can abuse them without a quaim now. :D
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On February 14 2013 09:49 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:42 wUndertUnge wrote:
So 4 hellions can still fit into the medivac? So there could still technically be 4 hellbats from one medivac, but it will take time to transform. Also it won't be as easy to pick up all the hellbats.
Is this correct? Probes move at the same speed as Hellbats though, so if you see somebody drop 4 Hellions and you run - they will never catch you if they take the time to morph into Hellbats. If they unload into some hidden corner of your base, then you will still see it in time to run your probes and not take probe damage. Now they can still snipe addons and even low HP buildings, but worker losses should be much much lower now.
Workers actually move 25% faster than Hellbats. (2.8125 vs 2.25)
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How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
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On February 14 2013 08:33 GGzerG wrote:
I don't understand so, your supply will go up and down whenever hellions change from hellions to hellbats?
No. It means you can only load 2 Hellbats in a Medivac instead of 4. That way Hellbat drops will not bbq workers that fast.
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
tho you can still load 4 hellions then transform them when dropped, tho you can buy time to move your workers out before they are fully transformed. And Hellbats walk pretty slow, so workers should be in a safe distance by then.
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On February 14 2013 09:54 Spyridon wrote:
To all the people saying they could think of better ideas, Hellbats still need to be nerfed, etc.
No offense but you guys don't understand much about the balance in the game. Just watch how this works out. I can guarantee a large part of the issue will be fixed, while still leaving hellbat/medivac both viable units, and their combined synergy micro as a viable strat, just not "random" to defend against.
Watch the next round of Pro games and the results in comparison. That will speak volumes.
Yes. Mm-hm. I like what you did there. Yes, nice. Exactly!!!!
I feel like when people complaing about IMBA, they want certain tactics totally wiped out of the game. This'll still be effective because of (oh my god, I feel like I broken record)
1) if yo uwant to get 4 hellbats in, you have to bring them in has hellions and transform.
2) you will always lose 2 hellbats if terran needs immediate evac.
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On February 14 2013 09:25 DoNuTs84 wrote:
This change makes no difference. It STILL only takes 2 hits to kill workers. Its the unit itself that needs to be nerfed...alot
then why should the unit even exist then? in your world there would only be standard hellions
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On February 14 2013 09:57 Pucca wrote:
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
Because tranforming them to hellbats takes time, and means they won't be instantly hitting workers. Hellbats are also slower than workers (and most units), so unless dropped right on top of them, they should be unable to hit stuff that moves.
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its a good change was way to powerful. even if you failed 3 times with all it takes is one drop and 18 workers died in seconds
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On February 14 2013 09:57 Pucca wrote:
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
so can you absolutely guarantee the following:
1) drop the hellions off
2) transform
3) walk over
...that your enemy won't spot you coming? don't say you'll just drop and transform right inside the mineral line and think oh he won't notice
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On February 14 2013 09:57 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 08:33 GGzerG wrote:
I don't understand so, your supply will go up and down whenever hellions change from hellions to hellbats? No. It means you can only load 2 Hellbats in a Medivac instead of 4. That way Hellbat drops will not bbq workers that fast. Show nested quote +How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats? tho you can still load 4 hellions then transform them when dropped, tho you can buy time to move your workers out before they are fully transformed. And Hellbats walk pretty slow, so workers should be in a safe distance by then.
Precisely, and once the workers have moved away - you've done zero damage and put yourself behind.
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maybe time to fix oracles now?
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On February 14 2013 09:57 Pucca wrote:
How does this change anything? Load up my 4 hellions and then change them how does this change 4 hellbats?
You can always spot the people who don't even play the game and decide it's a good idea to join discussions about balance... I seriously don't understand why people make comments like this showing they don't play the game, because if they did they would know the transform time.
It takes 4 seconds to switch from hellion form to hellbat. This means if they try dropping right on your workers you have 4 seconds to escape or damage them.
The bigger problem was once they are in hellbat form, how they could be picked up and microed to alleviate their disadvantage (slow run speed).
The synergy between Medivacs and Hellbats is a good thing - it requires a bit of micro to do damage. The problem was with 4 of them you could effectively trap units with only a single medivac, at 6:30 in to the game.
At that time of the game, if you compare the units of the other races to the terran units, even if Zerg goes Roaches for example, you still have ~15 seconds before 7 Roaches hatch, and once they hatch it was a very close fight due to the medivac heals, even with some static defenses. And workers would die in the process.
Now you can still come in with 4 Hellbats, but it will be approx 7:12 instead of 6:30. This is a much more reasonable time, which is on par with the early aggression of the other races, and will allow other races to be able to deal with it, the risk vs reward is a lot more appropriate. And it will require more micro now, which is a good thing in the end.
On February 14 2013 10:04 vNmMasterT wrote:
maybe time to fix oracles now?
A single static defense can basically shut down 2 oracles, they are not really much of a problem unless you don't scout them (which is pretty fair).
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This is solid. Obviously 2 hellbats die quicker than 4 and can't do as much damage. Especially with the anti-hellbat drop meta beginning to develop, such as placing your spine crawlers outside the mineral line so the hellbats' auto-attack forces them away from the drones as dayvie mentioned a bit ago, this might actually be the only nerf they need. Now it's a much more costly investment of 2 medivacs if the terran wants to go for the deadly 4-hellbat drop. Still, a lot of it is going to depend on how quick people can react to a medivac afterburning its way into your mineral line. It's the combination of the two that really bring the whole strategy into question.
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EPT
