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On August 17 2023 18:17 WombaT wrote:
If the tapes were doctored in any way first thing Greenwood/United would have done would have been to hire some digital analyst to prove that they were.
to be clear im not a strong advocate for the idea that the tapes were doctored. but if i was to be devils advocate here i could think of a number of reasons for why there has seemingly not been any attempt from greenwood/united to discredit the legitimacy of the tapes, if there was any merit in doing so. once the case became a part of formal police investigations and prosecution, theres no way greenwood or united is going to take any action in regards to those tapes. once the prosecution was dropped, whilst it may be in greenwoods interests to prove the tapes were not what they seemed, his partner happened to be the one to release the tapes and it may not be in his interests to throw his partner under the bus anymore.
It’s not when it comes to fielding him as a United player, with all that entails. Does an entity in the entertainment business, and their sponsors want to give that green light or not?
i would argue that this consideration is still a legal problem. sure, united doesnt have to field any of their players just because theyre contracted. however, if the reason youre not fielding greenwood is not for performance reasons, then you are effectively putting out a statement that greenwood is culpable and the club does not wish to give such a player a platform. in a scenario like this i could see 2 big problems, the first being questions being raised about why the player isnt being sacked anyway, and legal exposure from greenwood for the libelous action the club has taken.
A colleague of mine got sacked for racist social media posts. A couple more for getting involved in an incident in a bar while in uniform. Fellow grunts doing menial jobs that have little visibility, they didn’t have to break the law to be let go.
the key difference in greenwoods case and your scenario above is that those employees did those things in the public domain. greenwoods incident happened in the privacy of his/his girlfriends home, and the incident was only made public by his gf, not himself. more importantly, the legitimacy of the accusations and the facts around the incident cannot be verified by most people. it would be unfair to punish greenwood for something he may or may not have done in the privacy of his home.
I’m a big believer in redemption and rehabilitation, if he took any of the steps on his end to begin that process, then I personally would be OK with an eventual return. Perhaps he could be a powerful advocate against abusive and coercive behaviour, especially to younger men. Do some community work, whatever, something.
i generally agree, but again i want to point out that its probably very likely that the reason nothing has been said and nothing has been done on greenwoods part to either address the situation or make amends for what he did, is simply because hes been instructed to. i dont think its unreasonable to assume that a combination of his own legal and pr team + uniteds legal/pr teams have agreed that greenwood should just lay low until the club first and foremost decides what will happen with his future.
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On August 17 2023 18:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 16:49 KobraKay wrote:On August 17 2023 14:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On August 17 2023 06:00 Pandemona wrote:
Issue is, from our point of view as the public he looks so guilty it not even funny. The girl had multiple bruises, she records him multiple time doing stuff to her when she is telling him to stop. Then it gets released into the public, then Greenwood is arrested and put behind bars for a length of time while the investigation continues, this happens when the Police are very confident that you are guilty/danger to the public. That is never good, for him now to get back to playing is going to be mad.
yeah i get that the evidence in the public domain didnt look good and the public can come to any conclusion they want. however the reason why a judicial system exists is to not allow the public to be judge, jury and executioner. as far as this case goes, the legal system had their chance and they decided not to pursue further. from a legal perspective and as a matter of principle, greenwood has not been found guilty of any breach of law and therefore should be treated as such. regardless of what the public thinks, the reality is that no one can definitively prove what greenwood did. the tapes could have been doctored for all we know; only those closest to the case would know the actual facts. its why even the prosecutors dropped the case, the audio and videos alone werent enough to prove him guilty and they required testimony, which his partner has refused to supply now. thats why i say if the law had their chance and nothing came of it, that should be the end of it. its a dangerous path to allow the public to dictate what happens with someones life. benjamin mendy didnt have the benefit of his club protecting him like greenwood had for united, and look where hes ended up. facing bankruptcy charges and having to sue city for backpay. i would be very shocked if united did cut greenwood loose. like i said, i dont think they have any legal standing because they wouldnt be able to claim greenwood damaged the clubs reputation if it cannot be proven that greenwood did those things. furthermore i dont think the glazers of all people really give a shit about public opinion anyway. their mere ownership devalues the club far more than any scandal a player could bring. Did they drop the case or the girl just withdrew the charges once they got back together? That is a significant difference. If it was indeed the prossecutors dropping the case for lack of or unsustainable evidence then I'm with you, but regardless, he will still be burned already with the general public. The Crown Prosecution Service I imagine have a very good gauge of what’s prosecutable, not just in terms of the law, but in terms of jury attitudes and how they are likely to react. The U.K. isn’t atypically bad in this regard, indeed it’s probably reasonably enlightened globally, but sexual offences still have a pretty low conviction rate. The various ‘she was asking for it’ defences re promiscuity, being drunk, how they were dressed still sway plenty a jury in plenty a case. I can only surmise that the second the plaintiff decided not to testify and resumed a relationship with the defendant the people in charge thought there’s not a snowball’s change in fucking hell that that won’t sway the jury, so what’s the point in proceeding? There would likely have been folks on that jury who had private opinions on her being a gold digger, given I see such an attitude being expressed seemingly every second comment on threads, it would seem statistically likely that that bias would come in too. Would be my guess. Something of an indictment on our still quite inadequate collective attitudes on such matters. People can’t seem to grasp that you can both be violated by someone, but yet still love and forgive them nonetheless.
Oh sorry I always forget about the part that you guys also use the random people on the street to judge kind of stuff.
Yep as you mentioned, regardless of the evidence, with a jury of his peers in charge, them being back together is a sure thing that someone would claim reasonable doubt exists anyway.
Nevermind my comment then, it is a lot more nuanced than a typical case.
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Sorry for the double post but it seems rather relevant, and in line with what was being discussed at the end of last year's thread.
According to our local media, Saudi Federation will file a request in order to have the Saudi league champ get a wild card for UCL already for 24/25.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On August 17 2023 21:27 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 18:28 WombaT wrote:On August 17 2023 16:49 KobraKay wrote:On August 17 2023 14:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On August 17 2023 06:00 Pandemona wrote:
Issue is, from our point of view as the public he looks so guilty it not even funny. The girl had multiple bruises, she records him multiple time doing stuff to her when she is telling him to stop. Then it gets released into the public, then Greenwood is arrested and put behind bars for a length of time while the investigation continues, this happens when the Police are very confident that you are guilty/danger to the public. That is never good, for him now to get back to playing is going to be mad.
yeah i get that the evidence in the public domain didnt look good and the public can come to any conclusion they want. however the reason why a judicial system exists is to not allow the public to be judge, jury and executioner. as far as this case goes, the legal system had their chance and they decided not to pursue further. from a legal perspective and as a matter of principle, greenwood has not been found guilty of any breach of law and therefore should be treated as such. regardless of what the public thinks, the reality is that no one can definitively prove what greenwood did. the tapes could have been doctored for all we know; only those closest to the case would know the actual facts. its why even the prosecutors dropped the case, the audio and videos alone werent enough to prove him guilty and they required testimony, which his partner has refused to supply now. thats why i say if the law had their chance and nothing came of it, that should be the end of it. its a dangerous path to allow the public to dictate what happens with someones life. benjamin mendy didnt have the benefit of his club protecting him like greenwood had for united, and look where hes ended up. facing bankruptcy charges and having to sue city for backpay. i would be very shocked if united did cut greenwood loose. like i said, i dont think they have any legal standing because they wouldnt be able to claim greenwood damaged the clubs reputation if it cannot be proven that greenwood did those things. furthermore i dont think the glazers of all people really give a shit about public opinion anyway. their mere ownership devalues the club far more than any scandal a player could bring. Did they drop the case or the girl just withdrew the charges once they got back together? That is a significant difference. If it was indeed the prossecutors dropping the case for lack of or unsustainable evidence then I'm with you, but regardless, he will still be burned already with the general public. The Crown Prosecution Service I imagine have a very good gauge of what’s prosecutable, not just in terms of the law, but in terms of jury attitudes and how they are likely to react. The U.K. isn’t atypically bad in this regard, indeed it’s probably reasonably enlightened globally, but sexual offences still have a pretty low conviction rate. The various ‘she was asking for it’ defences re promiscuity, being drunk, how they were dressed still sway plenty a jury in plenty a case. I can only surmise that the second the plaintiff decided not to testify and resumed a relationship with the defendant the people in charge thought there’s not a snowball’s change in fucking hell that that won’t sway the jury, so what’s the point in proceeding? There would likely have been folks on that jury who had private opinions on her being a gold digger, given I see such an attitude being expressed seemingly every second comment on threads, it would seem statistically likely that that bias would come in too. Would be my guess. Something of an indictment on our still quite inadequate collective attitudes on such matters. People can’t seem to grasp that you can both be violated by someone, but yet still love and forgive them nonetheless. Oh sorry I always forget about the part that you guys also use the random people on the street to judge kind of stuff. Yep as you mentioned, regardless of the evidence, with a jury of his peers in charge, them being back together is a sure thing that someone would claim reasonable doubt exists anyway. Nevermind my comment then, it is a lot more nuanced than a typical case.
How do other countries do it? I’d assumed some kind of jury selection was the standard in most places, might learn something today!
I know for certain cases, stuff like complicated technical fraud cases those are adjudicated by judges rather than juries, as a layman can’t be expected to reasonably come to judgement in something so specialised.
On August 17 2023 21:31 KobraKay wrote:
Sorry for the double post but it seems rather relevant, and in line with what was being discussed at the end of last year's thread.
According to our local media, Saudi Federation will file a request in order to have the Saudi league champ get a wild card for UCL already for 24/25.
Absolutely fucking hope not.
No space for plenty of champions from smaller competitions as is, it’s a further smack in the face for the increasing disparities in league borne of money to parachute a Saudi Arabian team in.
FFP, less toothless than it’s given credit for IMO would have to move from insufficient IMO, but some regulation, to abandoned completely to allow Saudi teams in. Which is going to go down like a lead balloon for teams who’ve showed restraint, or transgressed and been punished.
And how does a hypothetical tie between an Israeli and Saudi team work?
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On August 17 2023 23:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 21:27 KobraKay wrote:On August 17 2023 18:28 WombaT wrote:On August 17 2023 16:49 KobraKay wrote:On August 17 2023 14:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:On August 17 2023 06:00 Pandemona wrote:
Issue is, from our point of view as the public he looks so guilty it not even funny. The girl had multiple bruises, she records him multiple time doing stuff to her when she is telling him to stop. Then it gets released into the public, then Greenwood is arrested and put behind bars for a length of time while the investigation continues, this happens when the Police are very confident that you are guilty/danger to the public. That is never good, for him now to get back to playing is going to be mad.
yeah i get that the evidence in the public domain didnt look good and the public can come to any conclusion they want. however the reason why a judicial system exists is to not allow the public to be judge, jury and executioner. as far as this case goes, the legal system had their chance and they decided not to pursue further. from a legal perspective and as a matter of principle, greenwood has not been found guilty of any breach of law and therefore should be treated as such. regardless of what the public thinks, the reality is that no one can definitively prove what greenwood did. the tapes could have been doctored for all we know; only those closest to the case would know the actual facts. its why even the prosecutors dropped the case, the audio and videos alone werent enough to prove him guilty and they required testimony, which his partner has refused to supply now. thats why i say if the law had their chance and nothing came of it, that should be the end of it. its a dangerous path to allow the public to dictate what happens with someones life. benjamin mendy didnt have the benefit of his club protecting him like greenwood had for united, and look where hes ended up. facing bankruptcy charges and having to sue city for backpay. i would be very shocked if united did cut greenwood loose. like i said, i dont think they have any legal standing because they wouldnt be able to claim greenwood damaged the clubs reputation if it cannot be proven that greenwood did those things. furthermore i dont think the glazers of all people really give a shit about public opinion anyway. their mere ownership devalues the club far more than any scandal a player could bring. Did they drop the case or the girl just withdrew the charges once they got back together? That is a significant difference. If it was indeed the prossecutors dropping the case for lack of or unsustainable evidence then I'm with you, but regardless, he will still be burned already with the general public. The Crown Prosecution Service I imagine have a very good gauge of what’s prosecutable, not just in terms of the law, but in terms of jury attitudes and how they are likely to react. The U.K. isn’t atypically bad in this regard, indeed it’s probably reasonably enlightened globally, but sexual offences still have a pretty low conviction rate. The various ‘she was asking for it’ defences re promiscuity, being drunk, how they were dressed still sway plenty a jury in plenty a case. I can only surmise that the second the plaintiff decided not to testify and resumed a relationship with the defendant the people in charge thought there’s not a snowball’s change in fucking hell that that won’t sway the jury, so what’s the point in proceeding? There would likely have been folks on that jury who had private opinions on her being a gold digger, given I see such an attitude being expressed seemingly every second comment on threads, it would seem statistically likely that that bias would come in too. Would be my guess. Something of an indictment on our still quite inadequate collective attitudes on such matters. People can’t seem to grasp that you can both be violated by someone, but yet still love and forgive them nonetheless. Oh sorry I always forget about the part that you guys also use the random people on the street to judge kind of stuff. Yep as you mentioned, regardless of the evidence, with a jury of his peers in charge, them being back together is a sure thing that someone would claim reasonable doubt exists anyway. Nevermind my comment then, it is a lot more nuanced than a typical case. How do other countries do it? I’d assumed some kind of jury selection was the standard in most places, might learn something today! I know for certain cases, stuff like complicated technical fraud cases those are adjudicated by judges rather than juries, as a layman can’t be expected to reasonably come to judgement in something so specialised. Show nested quote +On August 17 2023 21:31 KobraKay wrote:
Sorry for the double post but it seems rather relevant, and in line with what was being discussed at the end of last year's thread.
According to our local media, Saudi Federation will file a request in order to have the Saudi league champ get a wild card for UCL already for 24/25. Absolutely fucking hope not. No space for plenty of champions from smaller competitions as is, it’s a further smack in the face for the increasing disparities in league borne of money to parachute a Saudi Arabian team in. FFP, less toothless than it’s given credit for IMO would have to move from insufficient IMO, but some regulation, to abandoned completely to allow Saudi teams in. Which is going to go down like a lead balloon for teams who’ve showed restraint, or transgressed and been punished. And how does a hypothetical tie between an Israeli and Saudi team work?
Not really a football question, but most of Europe uses civil law, not common law. And in civil law, guilt is generally decided by judges, not by a jury of laymen.
Ontopic and in response to evilfatsh1t, not to you: I don't really think ManU benching Greenwood is the same as declaring him guilty. He's guilty of being a toxic individual and a negative influence on their brand. He can be that even if he's completely innocent of any crimes.
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Afaik his girlfriend has never taken back what she initially accused Greenwood of, it's just that she didn't anymore want to pursue it through the justice system. Therefore it would be weird for ManU to be accused of libel for not playing him if the gf making the accusations isn't first on trial for that.
Anyways, as others said, continuing to pay his wages but not fielding Greenwood is hardly a punishment either and most importantly terminating an employment contract does not require proof to a criminal standard. It would (and will, I'm afraid) be terribly spineless of ManU to just brush this whole thing under the rug now and let Greenwood resumes his career as if everything is suddenly sunny.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On August 17 2023 21:31 KobraKay wrote:
Sorry for the double post but it seems rather relevant, and in line with what was being discussed at the end of last year's thread.
According to our local media, Saudi Federation will file a request in order to have the Saudi league champ get a wild card for UCL already for 24/25.
If they come into Uefa it will kill the saudi league, as they would have to join FFP lol and thus there tiny revenues they make will not pass FFP guidelines. So then they have to offer like 40k a week to go play over there, no one going to do that.
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On August 17 2023 06:06 sharkie wrote:
Omg Endo going to Liverpool!! If he stays fit Liverpool will win the title!!
I know nothing about the guy, but his profile seems like a very sound stop-gap solution given the recent misses on DMs. He might still have a few good years left, seems well liked both by the club and the league as a whole, has plenty of high level experience and seems highly motivated. If he does well, Liverpool can sit back a season or two, do some scouting and then figure out their next long term move on the position.
Obviously he could be a total bust and then it's quite a bit of trouble for the whole Liverpool midfield and season as a whole, but given the circumstances it seems like a decent gamble.
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Is there more of a chance of crowd trouble in the lower leagues ( UK ). Considering going to a league 2 game as an away fan but don't want to have rocks thrown at me
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On August 18 2023 16:31 mathenalin wrote:
Is there more of a chance of crowd trouble in the lower leagues ( UK ). Considering going to a league 2 game as an away fan but don't want to have rocks thrown at me
It'll be fine. 95% of games go without any incident at all, and fans minding their own business get left alone anyway.
The only caveat is that local rivalries can get a bit dicey but you'll be fine. Just don't get drunk and argue with people.
I've been going to non league games for ages, and I've only really seen 2-3 bad incidents in 30 years, and they were caused by drunk people being pricks and then taking things too far, but normal fans are never involved. League 2 games are a bit more calm since the clubs have more obligations etc.
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Apparently there is a lots of hate because Liverpool bought endo. All these people have no clue about football. He's a great player and just because he's Asian there's zero respect.
I'd always want endo above the Southampton teenager Chelsea bought
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On August 18 2023 22:36 sharkie wrote:
Apparently there is a lots of hate because Liverpool bought endo. All these people have no clue about football. He's a great player and just because he's Asian there's zero respect.
I'd always want endo above the Southampton teenager Chelsea bought
Haven’t seen much hate, mostly underwhelmed fans.
Liverpool fans went from pining (baselessly) for them getting Bellingham, then have Caicedo and Lavia both go to Chelsea.
Just not a very sexy signing, in a position they could really do with a nailed on linchpin.
But could prove judicious and work out well, would rather see a prudent 20 million signing than this ridiculous splurging of money we’re seeing.
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On August 19 2023 01:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 22:36 sharkie wrote:
Apparently there is a lots of hate because Liverpool bought endo. All these people have no clue about football. He's a great player and just because he's Asian there's zero respect.
I'd always want endo above the Southampton teenager Chelsea bought Haven’t seen much hate, mostly underwhelmed fans. Liverpool fans went from pining (baselessly) for them getting Bellingham, then have Caicedo and Lavia both go to Chelsea. Just not a very sexy signing, in a position they could really do with a nailed on linchpin. But could prove judicious and work out well, would rather see a prudent 20 million signing than this ridiculous splurging of money we’re seeing.
I've a feeling they will change their minds pretty quickly.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
I don't think they will, guy will try very hard, he is a solid player, but he is 30 now, his highest achievement is carrying Stuttgart for the last few seasons who have been hovering over relegation (relegated without him) and if he was any good surely Bayern would have taken him years ago? He is a stop gap signing at 30, replacing Fabinho who is 29 and proven in the premier league, bizzard panic buy signing, but hey at least it isn't as bad as there last year panic buy who played 60 minutes all season for them xD
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Tuchel Fielding players He never wanted to field and he's winning his first real game lol
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On August 19 2023 05:10 sharkie wrote:
Tuchel Fielding players He never wanted to field and he's winning his first real game lol
What grievous offence did poor old Tommy Tucks commit against you?
Nice to see Kane off the mark already, it’s quite a rarity for us Brits to have our top players plying their trade elsewhere, with him and Bellingham hitting the ground running it’s nice to see
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He wasted Dortmunds best chance of winning a league title because he had too much respect for pep and Bayern and played for a draw way back when instead of going gung-ho to win the game. That was the start of my hate for him.
And since then he's been so overrated but kicked out of every club
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I mean, he did win the champions league with Chelsea. He only got kicked out of Chelsea because he told big american real estate man that his ideas were stupid. And Chelsea immediately went on to spend million pounds hiring and firing potter, then bringing lampard back and being a laughing stock.
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Norway28866 Posts
Yeah Chelsea sacking tuchel is the dumbest decision i can think of. Not just retrospectively either. He took charge of Dortmund in shambles (46 point season before he came) and gave them the best season since 11/12 (78 points). He won the CL with Chelsea. Got PSG to their only final. He doesn't strike me as particularly likeable but he is a great tactician, that much is undisputable.
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EPT
