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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:09 Ace wrote:
@Cyric: 12 mil for a guy who isn't a 2 way disaster is solid imo. While Washington is known for screwing up their cap year on end, this is actually a surprisingly good figure for them. I was honestly expecting worse. Of course, the 5 year length could be considered an actual doomsday scenario. I'm guessing there is a team option in the 4th year. Washington (really, Leonsis) has been in "win at all costs" mode for 2 years now. I kinda can't blame him since those old Washington teams were absolute garbage filled with morons.
Agreed. The win-now philosophy plays a large part in this contract, as Gortat has proven to be a key part to this particular roster's success. I also don't fault WAS for trying to win now as the East is in terrible shape and they've been a trainwreck for so long. It's also a good idea to start building a winning culture that players will want to be around so that you can attract FAs and hold onto your stars.
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On July 03 2014 03:09 Ace wrote:
@Cyric: 12 mil for a guy who isn't a 2 way disaster is solid imo. While Washington is known for screwing up their cap year on end, this is actually a surprisingly good figure for them. I was honestly expecting worse. Of course, the 5 year length could be considered an actual doomsday scenario. I'm guessing there is a team option in the 4th year. Washington (really, Leonsis) has been in "win at all costs" mode for 2 years now. I kinda can't blame him since those old Washington teams were absolute garbage filled with morons.
I was going to say something about how having your estate overpay a player after you are dead isn't really a problem. But I looked up Leonsis and he's only 57.
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I guess, if you frame Avery Bradley's contract off Jodie Meek's contract it makes sense. I might actually prefer Meeks in that situation.
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On July 03 2014 03:37 zulu_nation8 wrote:
doesn't seem like there are any big men they can overpay besides jordan hill
On July 03 2014 03:40 Haiq343 wrote:
Hayward's max is different from Lebron's Max is different from... etc. You get the idea.
Hayward @ 15ish a year isn't outrageous if you believe that his slump was brought on by having to carry an awful jazz team (and take/miss awful shots) that didn't give a shit. And Zulu's point about the Cleveland overpay is valid as well.
Meeks will at least help Detroit's desperate need for spacing as he can actually shoot. Probably a bit of an overpay but 3years isn't endless and it's not like he's too old to learn to be a semi-competent team defender.
I think Cleveland should overpay Jordan Hill before paying Hayward 15 mil. To be clear this isn't really because I think Hayward is a bad player. Last year's Utah team really screwed him over since the roster was in flux and Tyrone Corbin is nutso. The Cavs just have too many wing players that need development and throwing Hayward in the pot just sucks for him - if he isn't going to be the secondary ball handler behind Kyrie they are absolutely screwed. At the least get rid of Waiters and Bennett and let Gordon/Irving/Wiggins core shine (which I think is legit since they have 2 good defensive wings now).
@andrew: Leonsis could probably be taken out by a rabid fan in the next few years. He is loathed by DC fans because the Caps used to suck too.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:31 Ace wrote:
Cleveland has enough wing players though. They've drafted four first rounders in the last few years (Wiggins, Bennet, Waiters, Irving) and now paying Gordon would be costly. Just keep the cheap guys since I doubt Hayward is going to improve them that much. Get a big guy since Varajeo is losing effectiveness and Thompson isn't good enough yet to protect the rim consistently.
Despite all those first rounders, there are a lot of questions for that roster and it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to go after a player like Hayward in my opinion.
Irviing is a PG, but he's a scorer and can play well off the ball due to his shooting. It seems that teams need two ballhandlers who can create offense these days due to how good defenses have got, and Hayward could be that guy next to Kyrie. Wiggins is a high-upside rookie who doesn't seem capable of carrying an offensive load or playmaking right away, Bennett has shown nothing thus far, and Waiters doesn't seem to play well next to Kyrie and might be better off as a 6th man for that roster.
The Cavs' frontcourt is in terrible shape with Varejao not being able to stay on the court and Thompson being a PF who isn't a stretch but also doesn't score efficiently or protect the rim well, and Hawes looking like he may end up signing elsewhere. I'm not sure there are any viable or good targets for them to go after, but they should definitely focus on getting some help in the paint over wing talent if possible.
CLE is also strangely in a win-now mode despite having a roster that doesn't seem close to being able to complete for anything other than a first round exit at this point. I think it's great that they don't want to be in the lottery again next season, but that doesn't mean they should go all-in on this offseason to try to improve the roster. They should try to improve while still keeping an eye towards the future, because contending in 2-3 years seems like a much more realistic goal.
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I agree with the 2 ball handler model. I've always advocated that you need 2 to even have a shot at winning big in this league unless you have an ATG PG which Irving is not.
Keeping Waiters (cheap contract) means the Cavs are not going to mind paying big in a few years? With Hayward starting at 15 + Kyrie's $90M deal are they just developing these guys with no hope of winning a chip just to let them go in a few years?
Irving/Wiggins/Hayward/Thompson/??? I see working if the Center was actually Jordan Hill  . Now we throw Waiters as the 6th in, and Bennett is a lost cause due to little shot at developing here. There has to be a trade in the works right? If they want to win now someone has to replace Hawes as a top priority.
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Gee and CJ Miles ate up a lot of minutes last season too, Waiters might be moved anyway because of all the antics with him last year. Only thing that sucks is Dellavedova and Jack competing for minutes. Bennett will probably never develop.
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I remember seeing Delladova play and thought he was a good ball handler with solid defense. Could be wrong but that's a guy they should be playing heavily over Jack in the RS just to make sure he's ready for the playoffs.
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United States4471 Posts
Jack was a win-now gamble ("he paired well with Curry, why not Kyrie?") that crapped out because the Cavs turned out to be a lot worse than their management had hoped. Now he sticks out like a sore thumb and makes too much to not play at all.
If I'm the Cavs, I'm doing everything possible to hold onto Hawes because he's the best option out there for them. If they lose him, they'd be left trying to bid on Hill (better as bench energy guy) or Frye (doesn't provide the rebounding or defense they need). Hawes isn't great, but I think he's better than the other two options.
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On July 03 2014 03:31 Ace wrote:
Cleveland has enough wing players though. They've drafted four first rounders in the last few years (Wiggins, Bennet, Waiters, Irving) and now paying Gordon would be costly. Just keep the cheap guys since I doubt Hayward is going to improve them that much. Get a big guy since Varajeo is losing effectiveness and Thompson isn't good enough yet to protect the rim consistently.
On July 03 2014 04:02 Ace wrote:I agree with the 2 ball handler model. I've always advocated that you need 2 to even have a shot at winning big in this league unless you have an ATG PG which Irving is not. Keeping Waiters (cheap contract) means the Cavs are not going to mind paying big in a few years? With Hayward starting at 15 + Kyrie's $90M deal are they just developing these guys with no hope of winning a chip just to let them go in a few years? Irving/Wiggins/Hayward/Thompson/??? I see working if the Center was actually Jordan Hill . Now we throw Waiters as the 6th in, and Bennett is a lost cause due to little shot at developing here. There has to be a trade in the works right? If they want to win now someone has to replace Hawes as a top priority.
This is why Cleveland has to pay whatever it has to Greg Monroe.
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when multiple teams offer him the max there's just no incentive to go to cleveland.
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On July 03 2014 03:41 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 03:09 Ace wrote:
@Cyric: 12 mil for a guy who isn't a 2 way disaster is solid imo. While Washington is known for screwing up their cap year on end, this is actually a surprisingly good figure for them. I was honestly expecting worse. Of course, the 5 year length could be considered an actual doomsday scenario. I'm guessing there is a team option in the 4th year. Washington (really, Leonsis) has been in "win at all costs" mode for 2 years now. I kinda can't blame him since those old Washington teams were absolute garbage filled with morons. Agreed. The win-now philosophy plays a large part in this contract, as Gortat has proven to be a key part to this particular roster's success. I also don't fault WAS for trying to win now as the East is in terrible shape and they've been a trainwreck for so long. It's also a good idea to start building a winning culture that players will want to be around so that you can attract FAs and hold onto your stars.
Agree with what you're saying. Plus if they re-sign Ariza as well they have their starting 5 locked up for the next couple seasons, and I think they're good enough to compete in the East during that time frame. The length is less bad once you consider that the cap is going to get larger/higher in the next couple years. In addition I think I read somewhere that his contract is front-loaded so he makes more in the first couple years than in the last couple years of his deal, which makes it even less bad. Assuming that he doesn't quickly deteriorate he might even be tradable in the last couple years of his contract.
I think Hayward for his max is about right, but not for the Cavs. I'd try to hold on to Hawes cause apparently a lot of teams want him- there's a lack of good/cheap big man free agents (which incidentally makes the Gortat signing look even better).
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Oh Cleveland, this is how you lost Lebron.
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I really like Hayward. I look at him as a glue guy. He won't fight with everyone else to take the shots. He creates for other people. He is composed and will just play the role the team needs. He is a great fit for Irving and Waiters(who are selfish players). Is he worth this much? Ehh probably not (will depend on his play) but I think he deserves a little more due than he is getting from some fans.
And the more I think about it, the more I am warming up to Meeks too Jibba. Would I have liked it more at 5mil/year, definitely. But if Van Gundy can get him to play good D, then he might be worth it. His offensive stats are great, as you've noticed. It's his defense that is the troublesome part, but the good thing is he does work really hard (hardest working-Laker last season). And he has never had a defensive coach like Stan so there is some upside
edit: plus, isn't Hayward a RFA? That might also be the reason for giving him an extra couple million per year even if he might not be worth the max in their opinion(Cavs). Make Jazz pay up or let him go..
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2014 05:21 DystopiaX wrote:
Agree with what you're saying. Plus if they re-sign Ariza as well they have their starting 5 locked up for the next couple seasons, and I think they're good enough to compete in the East during that time frame. The length is less bad once you consider that the cap is going to get larger/higher in the next couple years. In addition I think I read somewhere that his contract is front-loaded so he makes more in the first couple years than in the last couple years of his deal, which makes it even less bad. Assuming that he doesn't quickly deteriorate he might even be tradable in the last couple years of his contract.
I think Hayward for his max is about right, but not for the Cavs. I'd try to hold on to Hawes cause apparently a lot of teams want him- there's a lack of good/cheap big man free agents (which incidentally makes the Gortat signing look even better).
The more we talked about the Cavs situation, the more I also came to realize that the Gortat signing actually makes sense due to the dearth of good centers available this offseason. Plus, his skill set is actually not as common as some might think. There aren't many centers who are skilled at running a pick and roll, set great screens, have good hands to catch on the move after rolling hard, can finish around the basket so effectively, and provide solid rebounding and defense at the same time. He's also shown himself to be a good teammate thus far, and isn't a headcase a la McGee or Sanders.
Some other centers and 2013-2014 salaries to consider when evaluating Gortat's new deal:
Tyson $14.1M
Okafor $14.4M
Bogut $14M
Pekovic $12.1M
DJ $10.9M
McGee $10.7M
Splitter $10M
Perkins $8.7M
Asik $8.3M
I could easily slot in Gortat between Pekovic and DJ in terms of value, and maybe even value him equally with Pekovic since he seems better at protecting the rim.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 03 2014 05:58 MassHysteria wrote:
I really like Hayward. I look at him as a glue guy. He won't fight with everyone else to take the shots. He creates for other people. He is composed and will just play the role the team needs. He is a great fit for Irving and Waiters(who are selfish players). Is he worth this much? Ehh probably not (will depend on his play) but I think he deserves a little more due than he is getting from some fans.
And the more I think about it, the more I am warming up to Meeks too Jibba. Would I have liked it more at 5mil/year, definitely. But if Van Gundy can get him to play good D, then he might be worth it. His offensive stats are great, as you've noticed. It's his defense that is the troublesome part, but the good thing is he does work really hard (hardest working-Laker last season). And he has never had a defensive coach like Stan so there is some upside
edit: plus, isn't Hayward a RFA? That might also be the reason for giving him an extra couple million per year even if he might not be worth the max in their opinion(Cavs). Make Jazz pay up or let him go..
I just love his shot selection. It's either a 3pter or at the rim. None of that 18footer crap.
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We were just commenting on the length of Gortat's contract. The 12m/y is a slight underpay for Gortat imo, but it's locked in for 5 years. Big men going on 35 are at increased risk of injury (obvious right? older = more injuries). I would've been fine with 40m/3y for Gortat.
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Looks like patty mills took less money to stay with the spurs, good deal for everyone.
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^I feel like if the Spurs want you back in most cases you decide to stay. Says a lot about their organization.
On July 03 2014 08:18 seiferoth10 wrote:
We were just commenting on the length of Gortat's contract. The 12m/y is a slight underpay for Gortat imo, but it's locked in for 5 years. Big men going on 35 are at increased risk of injury (obvious right? older = more injuries). I would've been fine with 40m/3y for Gortat.
yeah the length is the worst thing about his contract. I think partial motivators for the 5 were the fact that they were the only ones who could offer him that length, and as Gortat realizes he's getting old as well he probably negotiated hard for that longer contract. As previously stated, there are a ton of teams this offseason with cap space and a very small number of free agent skilled big men. I think the Wizards overpaid Gortat early so that they wouldn't have to deal with other competing offers from other teams that may have overpaid him more. That risk is only going to go up as more players get signed and other teams strike out on other free agents.
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I don't mind the Hayward deal. I think he's underrated. Maybe not worth max but the Cavs had to make that offer if they were serious about prying him from Utah.
Gortat contract is standard for a solid starting C but the length is ridiculous. Was another team really going to offer anything similar? It's fully guaranteed too. They outbid themselves imo...
And Wtf are the magic doing?
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EPT
