On September 20 2020 06:13 THERIDDLER wrote: Serrals "consistency" came all from 2018-2019 aka OP zerg years. Rogue's opponents in GSL are also 10x harder.
You can't read I guess. If you can and don't believe me just go look at Liquipedia(second half of 2018) and tell me how many Zerg winners/runner op you find; good luck!
In 2019 Serral was still more consistent than any other Zerg and the fairy tale of the much harder opponents in GSL becomes falser every year.
While I think that Serral, Reynor and Clem are all on the same level as the top Koreans, it s still undeniable, that lets say the top 10 in KR is way more dense than the top 10 in EU. As actually shown somewhat accurate on Aligulac. I think, if you take those standings with a grain of salt and add like an extra 200 points to all Korenas and Chinese (and Special), you ll get a very accurate picture of the oerall Skill Level in the regions. Reynor and Serral on the one Hand and Maru, Dark, Stats, Inno, Rogue, Trap on the other are all comperativly close to each other. Then TY, (Soo,) Parting, Cure, Solar, Byun, Zest and Clem come directly behind them.
Thats 14 KR and 3 EU Players, that are all Championship contenders at this point. There are still more KR than EU Players at the very top, but they are not significantly better than their EU counterparts, there are just more of them.
If you would go down the list even further to the next tier, you would actually allready get more foreigners than Koreans, as the Koreans Scene is so small.
It's interesting.
Back in 2018 it was just "Serral and the Koreans" Then in 2019 it was "Serral and Reynor and the Koreans" Now its "Serral and Reynor and Clem and the Koreans"
Hopefully next year we can add a foreign Protoss to that list as well
in 2016/17 it was Neeb vs Koreans, but he fell off a cliff, he was the foreign Protoss hope
How comes the unstoppable Rogue was trampled earlier in the days and I only saw comments saying Inno was good while now Serral loses and his skill is questioned along with his comments?
Serral can lose, at the moment he is not the unstoppable god he was in 2018 and not even the arguably #1 player he was in 2019; this doesn't mean he weren't in the past.
Because no one considers Rogue the GOAT. that level of adulation comes with appropriate increases in scrutiny.
Also I find it funny that you showed up so fast. You're very reliable in how defensive you are of Serral whenever he DOES lose.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
if Maru can get eliminated in ro32, then Serral can, deal with it
On September 20 2020 04:16 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
Because no one considers Rogue the GOAT. that level of adulation comes with appropriate increases in scrutiny.
Also I find it funny that you showed up so fast. You're very reliable in how defensive you are of Serral whenever he DOES lose.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
if Maru can get eliminated in ro32, then Serral can, deal with it
But you're missing the point. Maru was famously inconsistent (think of all the times we had huge maru hype and then he gets knocked out in unceremonious fashion). Serral (was) famously consistent
On September 20 2020 04:16 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
Because no one considers Rogue the GOAT. that level of adulation comes with appropriate increases in scrutiny.
Also I find it funny that you showed up so fast. You're very reliable in how defensive you are of Serral whenever he DOES lose.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
The idea that Serral would have made the ro8 of the last 9 GSLs in a row is absurd and the exact type of statement that makes me unable to take the way he's rated seriously. Are you assuming he gets placed in easy groups every season? Swap him with Dark in the current ro16 and you really think he's guaranteed to get out? He's the favorite but there's a really good shot he gets eliminated. Multiply that over 9 seasons and he's going to be eliminated in groups at least once or twice. Has anyone ever gotten top 8 for 9 seasons in a row?
Mates I a brutal Korean elitist and still I'm not blind enough to admit that Serral would be one of the most fearsome players in gsl. Even the Korean pros think so. Granted the EU elitism is quite annoying from the casters and dudes like Xanion but the consistency Serral is showing is undeniable. Ro24 would be a total walkover for him... But yeah from ro8 we can only speculate unless him and the likes of him actually play it. We still see that the gap between gsl and rest of world is quite big but the top 3 EU is insane and can best anyone in the right circumstances. And that is what makes SC beautiful
On September 20 2020 04:16 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
Because no one considers Rogue the GOAT. that level of adulation comes with appropriate increases in scrutiny.
Also I find it funny that you showed up so fast. You're very reliable in how defensive you are of Serral whenever he DOES lose.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
The idea that Serral would have made the ro8 of the last 9 GSLs in a row is absurd and the exact type of statement that makes me unable to take the way he's rated seriously. Are you assuming he gets placed in easy groups every season? Swap him with Dark in the current ro16 and you really think he's guaranteed to get out? He's the favorite but there's a really good shot he gets eliminated. Multiply that over 9 seasons and he's going to be eliminated in groups at least once or twice. Has anyone ever gotten top 8 for 9 seasons in a row?
Well, putting aside that Rogue was entirely capable of achieving this if he took some seasons a bit more seriously, the longest korean league Ro8 streak i can find is Soulkey's from end of 2012 to end of 2013 (he got interrupted in 2014 because he ended up in the hardest group of all time, but that's about it). I am not going to proclaim Serral is capable of getting 9 Ro8s in GSL in a row, but given that scene is far shallower since that time (imagine foreigner getting Ro4 in 2013 GSL, i sure can't) and that Serral's overall style preference has always reminded me of Soulkey (and i mean that, i thought that since i saw his series vs Supernova back in 2013), Serral getting at least 6 does not sound too unrealistic if committed to GSL in his prime.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
The idea that Serral would have made the ro8 of the last 9 GSLs in a row is absurd and the exact type of statement that makes me unable to take the way he's rated seriously. Are you assuming he gets placed in easy groups every season? Swap him with Dark in the current ro16 and you really think he's guaranteed to get out? He's the favorite but there's a really good shot he gets eliminated. Multiply that over 9 seasons and he's going to be eliminated in groups at least once or twice. Has anyone ever gotten top 8 for 9 seasons in a row?
Mates I a brutal Korean elitist and still I'm not blind enough to admit that Serral would be one of the most fearsome players in gsl. Even the Korean pros think so. Granted the EU elitism is quite annoying from the casters and dudes like Xanion but the consistency Serral is showing is undeniable. Ro24 would be a total walkover for him... But yeah from ro8 we can only speculate unless him and the likes of him actually play it. We still see that the gap between gsl and rest of world is quite big but the top 3 EU is insane and can best anyone in the right circumstances. And that is what makes SC beautiful
I think Mariano either has a split personality or shares the account with someone xd Today he's good guy Mariano and I like that.
Serral has made at least ro8 in the last 3(4) IEM Katowice and in the last 2 BlizzCon(streak still open); he reached at least the ro8 in 21 Premier Tournaments consecutively(the streak ended in TSL 5).
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
if Maru can get eliminated in ro32, then Serral can, deal with it
But you're missing the point. Maru was famously inconsistent (think of all the times we had huge maru hype and then he gets knocked out in unceremonious fashion). Serral (was) famously consistent
Maru is very consistent, often him "bombing" is getting ro4 or ro8 with a few exceptions here and there.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
The idea that Serral would have made the ro8 of the last 9 GSLs in a row is absurd and the exact type of statement that makes me unable to take the way he's rated seriously. Are you assuming he gets placed in easy groups every season? Swap him with Dark in the current ro16 and you really think he's guaranteed to get out? He's the favorite but there's a really good shot he gets eliminated. Multiply that over 9 seasons and he's going to be eliminated in groups at least once or twice. Has anyone ever gotten top 8 for 9 seasons in a row?
Mates I a brutal Korean elitist and still I'm not blind enough to admit that Serral would be one of the most fearsome players in gsl. Even the Korean pros think so. Granted the EU elitism is quite annoying from the casters and dudes like Xanion but the consistency Serral is showing is undeniable. Ro24 would be a total walkover for him... But yeah from ro8 we can only speculate unless him and the likes of him actually play it. We still see that the gap between gsl and rest of world is quite big but the top 3 EU is insane and can best anyone in the right circumstances. And that is what makes SC beautiful
There's a difference between saying he'd be fearsome in the tournament and saying he'd do something no one has ever done. And while I think it will happen in the future due to the shrinking depth of the scene that does not mean it would have happened with Serral from the first GSL in 2018 to now. Just choosing a random season and looking at Season 3 in 2018 there's a Gumiho/herO/Solar group in the ro32. Swap him with Solar there and he is not guaranteed to get out. At that time I wouldn't even have called him the favorite considering it was before he won Blizzcon and his ZvT was very untested back then. herO would probably lose to him but it would have been far from guaranteed.
Or what about 2019 Season 2. Let's swap him with Patience in the Maru/Inno group. He had lost his last 2 matches against Inno at that time and Maru was without a doubt still the better ZvT player. You think he would have been the favorite to get out of that?
Finally GSL season 1 in 2018 was before he had ever won anything big. He would get beaten by Maru/Classic/soO in the months following and Scarlett/Elazer shortly before. There are a couple groups you could throw him in that season he would not be a favorite to advance out of.
People underrate GSL groups dramatically. Yes the depth is decreasing but they are still hard. Especially in 2018 a lot less players had retired.
But Serral is ConSiSTent. Out of all "Serral is the GOAT" arguments, this is the most pathetic. Did anyone care for soOs "consistent" 2014? No, all eyes were on Zest, Inno and Life. This "Serral consistency" argument only comes up because he hasn't won a tournament worth 10% of his Blizzcon win in 2 years, so now its about how many gracious 2-3 defeats he suffered.
On September 20 2020 10:20 Morbidius wrote: But Serral is ConSiSTent. Out of all "Serral is the GOAT" arguments, this is the most pathetic. Did anyone care for soOs "consistent" 2014? No, all eyes were on Zest, Inno and Life. This "Serral consistency" argument only comes up because he hasn't won a tournament worth 10% of his Blizzcon win so now its about how many gracious 2-3 defeats he suffered.
Serral fanboys are the true GOATs of shifting goalposts (or maybe second to Taeja fans).
"GSL not everything / weekenders true measurement of skill due to lack of preparation time" "Manhandled peak Inno in tourney XX / consistently beats top Korean" "Reynor has his number / ZvZ so volatile" "When he's on fire, HE'S ON FIRE AND NO WATER CAN TOUCH HM!"
And so on. Even when he loses a match, he wins the GOAT debate. Simply amazing!
On September 20 2020 04:26 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
The idea that Serral would have made the ro8 of the last 9 GSLs in a row is absurd and the exact type of statement that makes me unable to take the way he's rated seriously. Are you assuming he gets placed in easy groups every season? Swap him with Dark in the current ro16 and you really think he's guaranteed to get out? He's the favorite but there's a really good shot he gets eliminated. Multiply that over 9 seasons and he's going to be eliminated in groups at least once or twice. Has anyone ever gotten top 8 for 9 seasons in a row?
Mates I a brutal Korean elitist and still I'm not blind enough to admit that Serral would be one of the most fearsome players in gsl. Even the Korean pros think so. Granted the EU elitism is quite annoying from the casters and dudes like Xanion but the consistency Serral is showing is undeniable. Ro24 would be a total walkover for him... But yeah from ro8 we can only speculate unless him and the likes of him actually play it. We still see that the gap between gsl and rest of world is quite big but the top 3 EU is insane and can best anyone in the right circumstances. And that is what makes SC beautiful
There's a difference between saying he'd be fearsome in the tournament and saying he'd do something no one has ever done. And while I think it will happen in the future due to the shrinking depth of the scene that does not mean it would have happened with Serral from the first GSL in 2018 to now. Just choosing a random season and looking at Season 3 in 2018 there's a Gumiho/herO/Solar group in the ro32. Swap him with Solar there and he is not guaranteed to get out. At that time I wouldn't even have called him the favorite considering it was before he won Blizzcon and his ZvT was very untested back then. herO would probably lose to him but it would have been far from guaranteed.
Or what about 2019 Season 2. Let's swap him with Patience in the Maru/Inno group. He had lost his last 2 matches against Inno at that time and Maru was without a doubt still the better ZvT player. You think he would have been the favorite to get out of that?
Finally GSL season 1 in 2018 was before he had ever won anything big. He would get beaten by Maru/Classic/soO in the months following and Scarlett/Elazer shortly before. There are a couple groups you could throw him in that season he would not be a favorite to advance out of.
People underrate GSL groups dramatically. Yes the depth is decreasing but they are still hard. Especially in 2018 a lot less players had retired.
I mean, people do underrate GSL groups at times, but i think you fail to consider a handful of minor issues here:
1. Your Ro32 example fails utterly because Serral was at his apex during that time period and his ZvT was already proven with him completely walking over Innovation (now, sure Innovation in mid 2018 was not particularly peak form, but Innovation's TvZ always counts) and best ZvZ in the world. Just because he has not won Blizzcon at that time does not mean he was not already in that form.
2. The Ro16 group example is better, but you do understand that groups are picked and as such arbitrarily swapping Patience out to make a point does not work? Besides, it's mid 2019, Zerg are broken, of course top 4 Zerg in the world would be the favorite to get out of the Ro16 group. Whether he would is questionable, but he would be favorite nonetheless.
3. I agree that Serral would not be going far in GSL 2018 S1.
Point is: consistently getting to Ro8 is hard, but if you are a top player who is willing to keep top form all year long, it's been done before. Not as exaggerated as 9 GSLs, but as i said, 5 in a row were done (and, dare i claim, with group nominations instead of random draw it would have been 7 in a row).
On September 20 2020 04:26 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
If Serral played in every GSL for the last 3 years he would have been eliminated in the ro32 at least once. That can't be held against anyone. All the GSL greats get eliminated in the ro32. The level of competition and prep time make it impossible to be that consistent in GSL. Serral is consistent because he only plays in a few events a year where he has any chance of getting eliminated before the top 4 so he can make sure he is in top condition for those events.
Nah. No. Serral would never get eliminated in ro32. He is just too consistently good for that. While I don't think he would achieve something like Mary (winning 4 gsl in a row). He would always be in a ro8 at least. Let's not diminish his consistency
if Maru can get eliminated in ro32, then Serral can, deal with it
But you're missing the point. Maru was famously inconsistent (think of all the times we had huge maru hype and then he gets knocked out in unceremonious fashion). Serral (was) famously consistent
Maru is very consistent, often him "bombing" is getting ro4 or ro8 with a few exceptions here and there.
it's also easier to look mortal when you're playing against higher level players. Also the GSL in general because of the preparation time allowed tends to favor more upsets occuring.
On September 20 2020 04:10 Charoisaur wrote: The Goat
How comes the unstoppable Rogue was trampled earlier in the days and I only saw comments saying Inno was good while now Serral loses and his skill is questioned along with his comments?
Serral can lose, at the moment he is not the unstoppable god he was in 2018 and not even the arguably #1 player he was in 2019; this doesn't mean he weren't in the past.
Because no one considers Rogue the GOAT. that level of adulation comes with appropriate increases in scrutiny.
Also I find it funny that you showed up so fast. You're very reliable in how defensive you are of Serral whenever he DOES lose.
I cannot stand people badmouthing great players when they lose and TL loves hating on Serral when he does. Also, losing matches has nothing to deal with being GOAT or not.
I am super happy for Clem, on the other hand!
he's the most overhyped player of all time, partly because of you so you have to just deal with the "badmouthing"
Agreed. If Serral fans wanted less criticism of him they could tone down their own praising language.
Overhyping? You must be thinking of someone else. Listing up Serral's feats, admiring his undeniable skill and repelling the ridicolous and increasingly indefensible arguments korean elitists tried to pull out against him(and non korean Sc2) in the last three years are not overhyping.
right Serral with his resume is a GOAT while Rogue with 3 world championship titles and 2 GSL's (and 9-0 in bo7's) is not a GOAT and losing to Inno because 'performed bad today', but Serral lost to Clem is 'whatever'. This is exactly why people talk so much crap about Serral when he loses, people are sick of Serral being held on a pedestal because of excess hyping and unreasonable allocations of merit especially when in recent times Zerg has been a broken race. Serral is not the only person to receive criticism, Dark has received them, Rogue has received them, sOs has received them (notice they are all World champions). Freaking Mvp, Zest, Inno, MC, they all get criticism. Everyone does, Serral shouldn't be immune to it, so stop being butthurt when he gets it.
First of all, I personally NEVER said Serral was the GOAT earlier. I think that now, as the most winningnest player in the history of Sc2(not to mention his streak, his win percentage and his average placements), he is one of the candidates.
The argument of Zerg being op affects Rogue much more than Serral; I'm kind of sick of repeating that but when Serral was at his apex and won 6 tournaments in a row including BlizzCon only one other Zerg reached the finals in a Premier. Rogue looks like a scrub(remember his ro32 exits at Code S?) when he is not in shape or Zerg is weak, Serral's consistency since 2018 is unmatched.
I was not the one saying that Rogue played bad today, read better. People talk crap about Serral when he loses because he broke forever their conviction that only koreans could dominate Starcraft; as for today, I think Serral effectively tilted, that was truly an Idra-esque early gg.
Hmm... Never expected it but I kinda agree here Of course Serral is nowwhere neat GOAT and such but he is the most consistent player of all time. Rogue is the complete opposite. When he is in form he looks unstoppable for a while but then falls off from time to time. It's still only a debate of what you value more. Consistency while not playing the best league and not winning the best tournaments? Or killing it all on the top of the top. Personally I am the latter, but it's all subjective. While I troll a lot and enjoy players like Serral not making it in the biggest of stages, I will never forget Rogues face when he thought he was the best player in the world, gave his 150 percent and still could not break Serral in that game 3 of Blizzcon. That was unprecedented and awesome. Let's just be happy we can witness these juggernauts in action while Sc2 lasts peace and love
My thought was Rogue was better when his didn't brag his 'confidence' level. Majority of his final wins came from advancing second to Ro. 8, somewhat this tenacity motivated him to win the tourmaments unexpectedly later on.
Serral would be in the bottom tier seeds in terms of GSL R024 group draw, right? Meaning: he would automatically get a tier 1 and a tier 2 player in his group, which is a difficult situation even for someone like Serral. I wouldn‘t even argue that he wouldn‘t advance there, but being certain also feels a bit off, simply because he‘d have to start at the very bottom of the seeds.
On September 20 2020 16:16 Swisslink wrote: Serral would be in the bottom tier seeds in terms of GSL R024 group draw, right? Meaning: he would automatically get a tier 1 and a tier 2 player in his group, which is a difficult situation even for someone like Serral. I wouldn‘t even argue that he wouldn‘t advance there, but being certain also feels a bit off, simply because he‘d have to start at the very bottom of the seeds.
Serral is still way better than for example 2018 Reynor and he got into Ro16, despite his low Seed and beeing picked by Classic (Back then Finalists from prior Season had the right to pick one 4th Seed Player as initial opponent). No reason to think Serral would struggling in Ro24 nowadays. Seed 2 Players are Players like SOS, Bunny, Dream, Solar, Zest Yes they are good, some of them eben beat him within the last 3 years in a match, but Serral is favoured against all of them.
On September 20 2020 16:16 Swisslink wrote: Serral would be in the bottom tier seeds in terms of GSL R024 group draw, right? Meaning: he would automatically get a tier 1 and a tier 2 player in his group, which is a difficult situation even for someone like Serral. I wouldn‘t even argue that he wouldn‘t advance there, but being certain also feels a bit off, simply because he‘d have to start at the very bottom of the seeds.
Serral is still way better than for example 2018 Reynor and he got into Ro16, despite his low Seed and beeing picked by Classic (Back then Finalists from prior Season had the right to pick one 4th Seed Player as initial opponent). No reason to think Serral would struggling in Ro24 nowadays. Seed 2 Players are Players like SOS, Bunny, Dream, Solar, Zest Yes they are good, some of them eben beat him within the last 3 years in a match, but Serral is favoured against all of them.
EPT
