On September 24 2020 00:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 00:19 Swisslink wrote:On September 24 2020 00:10 Charoisaur wrote:On September 24 2020 00:00 slant wrote:On September 23 2020 23:38 Charoisaur wrote:On September 23 2020 21:39 slant wrote:On September 23 2020 18:00 MarianoSC2 wrote:On September 23 2020 16:03 Swisslink wrote:On September 23 2020 05:50 deacon.frost wrote:On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote:
It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them! Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru. But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs... Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly. Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years. Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing. Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to. Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career. T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him. I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game. Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good. It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP. I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion. The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's. and in the other 28 tournaments Zerg won since 2018 (by 6 different Zergs) the Zerg also always won because he was the better player? Any proof that this is not the case? No? So the counter argument is just as valid as your argument. Well if this was the case we'd just act like Zerg players just happen to be better than the other races which is a stupid thing to say because under this assumption we could have stopped balancing the game at any point in SC2s lifespan and say it's just the players. Any proof Zerg players weren't just better during BL/Infestor?
Well, there are multiple indicators that kind of suggest an imbalance during the BL/Infestor era. The tournament victories are none of them. One indicator that is kind of obvious is the huge influx of Zerg players during that era. I went through the Ro4 finishers during that era and let me tell you: there were far more individual Zerg players reaching that point of the tournaments than the other two races. This basically means that not only the usual suspects performed better than usual, there were multiple lower tier Zerg that suddenly managed to beat up the other races as well. Or to put it differently: if only Life and maybe 1-2 more players beat up all the players during that era, it would have been hard to derive any imbalance from these results.
This scenario is in stark contrast to the current situation. Right now we have tons of Zerg victories, but not that many actual Zerg champions or even finalists. We do not even have a disproportionate amount of Zerg in the Ro4 of the international tournaments (talking about individual players). And it's not because we only have a low amount of Zerg in the tournament. These Zerg just fail to advance as far as Serral/Reynor in Europa and Dark/Rogue in Korea. Therefore the situation is just not comparable.
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On September 24 2020 16:54 deacon.frost wrote:Zergs win 65 % of the premiere tournaments, yet they are suddenly all became good. I wonder what would be happening if those 65 % victories were all Koreans. Edit> considering the stagering amount of Protoss champions I think it's the time to necro the Sad Zealot thread 
Well, in a perfect world, where every player performs consistently on his peak level, the same player would and should always win even in perfect balance. That's why basing a balance discussion around 4 players that consistently win - and have done so for a long time - is weird. Yes, in theory the four Zerg that win the tournaments right now, could potentially just be the 4 best players in the world. And in theory, the game could just have reached a point, where players are able to perform on a consistent level (assuming no one has to fight with wrist injuries, which is obviously not the case right now). We have serial winners or players that just consistently perform well in pretty much every sports, sometimes even multiple athletes from the same country at the same time. Yet, as soon as we have this consistency in StarCraft, everyone associates the success with the balance. Which is bad for the game in the end. Because again: in a perfect world, random victories should not be the case too often, which ultimately results in many victories for the same players.
By which I am not claiming that we do have the perfect world right now in StarCraft. All I am saying is that consistency should not be taken as a bad thing. And right now we're not arguing about balance - because, as mentioned, for any balance discussion these 65% victories do not say anything - but about the consistency some players show. This consistency might be favoured by the race they are playing. Or they might just be better. We definitely need more stats to make any clear claim in this regard. Yet, the fact that second tier Zerg tend not to advance further than second tier Terran/Protoss suggests that - if at all - there is only an issue at the very top of the game. And there, we can't rule out the possibility of these 4 players just being better. Which makes any statement regarding the balance of the game really damn hard if it only affects a pool of about 10 players.
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