Serral could be better than anyone else combined and I would still defy you to explain to me why it's a good thing that his first game vs goblin in the last ESL cup should look like it did. It's not just results, results are one thing. We also see the games.
My hypothesis is that a lot of people don't watch the games anymore and that's why there are still debates going on.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
The issues with such a small sample size as is with only so few players actually in contention to win a tournament, has already been dealt with. It should be more than obvious that it’s utter nonsense to base an entire argument on this. Apparently not, but whatever. In the end, Protoss had just as many Bo4 finishes as Zerg in international tournaments and from the top of my head I would argue they had more Bo8 finishes than Zerg. Terran has been doing really poorly, agreed. But I sincerely hope no one would actually argue that TvZ is really an issue right now. One race or the other might be favoured on specific maps, but overall it looks about even, if not Terran favoured quite often at the top. Afterall we’ve had only one GSL with a >50% winrate for Zerg in ZvT (one was even, the rest was - at times highly - T favoured) since 2018.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
The issues with such a small sample size as is with only so few players actually in contention to win a tournament, has already been dealt with. Apparently unsuccesfully. Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Do we follow the same game? All the P and T pros complain about Z all the time - Drogo, Showtime, Special, Heromarine, even Rogue admitted that Zerg is too strong.
On September 23 2020 07:23 Nebuchad wrote: Serral could be better than anyone else combined and I would still defy you to explain to me why it's a good thing that his first game vs goblin in the last ESL cup should look like it did. It's not just results, results are one thing. We also see the games.
My hypothesis is that a lot of people don't watch the games anymore and that's why there are still debates going on.
Why is it a good thing? Tefel losing that game to Mvp was not a good thing either, but nobody would call Terran OP over it.
P. S. Besides, that recent Neeb vs Serral one is far worse.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
The issues with such a small sample size as is with only so few players actually in contention to win a tournament, has already been dealt with. It should be more than obvious that it’s utter nonsense to base an entire argument on this. Apparently not, but whatever. In the end, Protoss had just as many Bo4 finishes as Zerg in international tournaments and from the top of my head I would argue they had more Bo8 finishes than Zerg. Terran has been doing really poorly, agreed. But I sincerely hope no one would actually argue that TvZ is really an issue right now. One race or the other might be favoured on specific maps, but overall it looks about even, if not Terran favoured quite often at the top. Afterall we’ve had only one GSL with a >50% winrate for Zerg in ZvT (one was even, the rest was - at times highly - T favoured) since 2018.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
It doesn't matter, many people want to see different cdhampions than just zergs. Occassionally a Terran wins something in Korea. And that's it. And miraculously people are getting tired of this and some people are shocked by this? Then there's a question if they follow sc2 at all.
Edit> The question in the end. Are you joking? Rogue was called a patchzerg by TL and then he called zerg OP a year later! Like what do you expect and how do you know they're not whining to blizz?
On September 23 2020 07:23 Nebuchad wrote: Serral could be better than anyone else combined and I would still defy you to explain to me why it's a good thing that his first game vs goblin in the last ESL cup should look like it did. It's not just results, results are one thing. We also see the games.
My hypothesis is that a lot of people don't watch the games anymore and that's why there are still debates going on.
Why is it a good thing? Tefel losing that game to Mvp was not a good thing either, but nobody would call Terran OP over it.
P. S. Besides, that recent Neeb vs Serral one is far worse.
I'm not under the impression that goblin threw that game, so it's not really connected to the Tefel game. If you want to make that argument I'd be interested to hear it.
There are other recent games with the same theme for sure.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I agree, Reynor played amazing and I have been a huge fan of his since debut. However, the final game of the tournament was the most disappointing one. I hate seeing swarm host + nydus versus protoss. As soon as the swarm hosts come out, it feels like a major spoiler as to the result of the game. Obviously a ton has been done to balance it and Reynor has every right to play strategies that win, but as a spectator it was like, "Glad I just watched 4 days of VODs just so I could watch this auto-win strategy happen in game 7 of an amazing series." Besides that, it was a fantastic Dreamhack to watch.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
No, as long as stephano doesn't win a premier everything is fine!
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
There are multiple examples or Reynor, Rogue or Serral not playing at their absolute best, in fact getting quite seriously outplayed, and then winning anyway. In order for your theory that zerg players are just better than anyone else to hold water, you would need them to actually play perfect games and for that to be the reason why they win. That's not what we are currently observing. In PvZ it currently looks like Serral could do just about anything that's not completely stupid and he's winning, in TvZ it's not as bad but there are still gross games.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
and in the other 28 tournaments Zerg won since 2018 (by 6 different Zergs) the Zerg also always won because he was the better player?
Another thing I find funny is that whenever a race is overperforming the members of this race say that it's just the players being better while the players of the other races laugh about that and tell them how stupid that is (like during GomTvT Terrans saying there are just more good terran players) but as soon as it's the own race that is overperforming they say the same.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
and in the other 28 tournaments Zerg won since 2018 (by 6 different Zergs) the Zerg also always won because he was the better player?
Any proof that this is not the case? No? So the counter argument is just as valid as your argument.
After all, the fact remains that Zerg does not have an impressive representation in the latest rounds of a tournament in terms of number of different players. They might not look worse, but they definitely do not look better neither. That‘s at least an indication that second level Zerg do not beat up the other races (which was btw. the case during BL-Infestor), but, if at all, the top Zerg beat the top Protoss/Terran on a rather regular basis, yet even there we have results like Clem beating Serral or Trap beating the top Zerg. Otherwise we‘d have far more surprising results with a Zerg making a deep run. Armani could be considered such a run, if he keeps on going forward.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
and in the other 28 tournaments Zerg won since 2018 (by 6 different Zergs) the Zerg also always won because he was the better player?
Any proof that this is not the case? No? So the counter argument is just as valid as your argument.
Well if this was the case we'd just act like Zerg players just happen to be better than the other races which is a stupid thing to say because under this assumption we could have stopped balancing the game at any point in SC2s lifespan and say it's just the players. Any proof Zerg players weren't just better during BL/Infestor?
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
Let‘s change the pace: why do you think there‘s really little to no criticism regarding these results from the professional players? Because they actually know what they are talking about. During the BL+Infestor era, even pro players were really vocal about the problems. And that‘s - after all - the current situation is compared to.
Are you serious with this? Zergs are winning everything and EU is full of Zerg. Do you really expect the pros who make a living of this to complain that their race is broken? :D Top Zergs wont complain because its easy money for them, average Zergs wont complain because playing with the strongest race gives them a chance to at least achieve something from time to time in their pro career.
T and P pros do complain. Koreans are less vocal because the culture there is completely different and you never know what level of complaint would their contracts and such allow for, but even so, almost all T and P complain about zergs when called out. FFS even one of the top Zergs openly admits his biggest motivation to keep practicing hard is his race being OP which means a chance for easy money for him.
I really dont know what other proof guys like you need. You have the results, the matches and the state of play of which the unfair design is more than apparent, the reactions from the pros, and the reactions from fans and community, all of this in the span of 3 years. Every single data point is revealing the same thing. At the top level of play, Zerg is a problem, especially in ZvP, and needs attention if we are ever going to talk about a fair game.
Koreans have certainly complained about balance before, I'm really unsure what you mean about Korean culture prohibiting that. Also, I'm mostly sure that the main point of the first user was that we don't see pro players going on tirades about how zerg is imba, broken, a-move race; it's only random tlnet users who think that they know more than people who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. 2020 is nowhere near the BL-infestor era, in fact I'd argue that the balance itself right now is generally quite good.
It's sad how whenever any zerg wins people fixate on the fact that zerg won, and not the player. Both Rogue and Serral, who many considered tournament favorites, were knocked out in the ro8, which is considered disappointing to both of their calibers, and yet zerg is still completely broken. Reynor played absolutely phenomenal starcraft this tournament, and he certainly proved to be the best player. This is not a balance discussion, it's a discussion about the tournament itself and Reynor did not win because a couple angry users on tlnet think zerg is OP.
I mean, doesn't this kinda prove the point? Even if 2 of the top Zergs disappoint and get knocked out early we still end up with having a Zerg champion.
The champion is Reynor, not his race. If zerg were imba, wouldn't we have a greater percentage of zergs reaching high levels of the tournaments? If Reynor won this tournament because of his race, more zergs would be up there with him as well. Rogue and Serral didn't play at their absolute best, while their opponents did, so they were eliminated. Reynor did, so he won every match where his skill was greater than that of his opponent's.
Oh come on already. We are not discussing or even disputing if Reynor or Serral or whoever is the best player or not. Its clear that all 4 of the tops Zergs are around a similar level with points in time where someone from them is slightly better.
And that is where the problem arises. Are we really going to pretend that these 4 Zergs are just a lot better than any players from other races? Really, you saw ever Maru play? TY was always a beast vs any Zerg. Trap is playing top PvZ of his life, and he is surely one of the best players overall. Stats was arguably always one of the best PvZ players, while Neeb seemed almost unbeatable in the matchup on the foreign scene.
Yet from all of these great players, its getting worse and worse to a point where the winner is almost always only from 1 race. We all agree that the skill of all the players is always increasing. But what if we finally arrived at a point in the game where its core design issues are starting to show up? When the skill cap of 1 race is clearly higher than the other races?
This is the problem we are angry about. Its not Reynor or Serral winning, its that ZvP matchup is straight up unfair and its getting to a point where top Zerg player has it a lot easier and a lot more forgiving than the top Protoss player. We all saw it in the grand finals, lets not pretend it was not obvious who the better player was there. In some of the games, no matter what Trap did and how well he executed it, it seemed impossible to win. That it was Reynor there up against him its almost irrelevant we all know how good he is. But this happens time after time with all the top Zergs in so many of the ZvP matches that its becoming super annoying not only for the P players, but for the fans alike.
I mean many players, I think its Reynor himself as well, they openly admit that if Zergs plays perfectly, there is no way for them to lose, not matter what the opponent does. Do we really think that is okay, that is fair and how it should be? LOL at that...
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/cq50ai3xcvo51.png)
