On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
You forgot Jinro. Two Ro4's in Code S? No non-Korean players can't make that claim and will probably never. I would replace HuK with Need too.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
Weird top 7 foreigner of all time list without Neeb.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Interesting how Blizzard has been happy to leave that race broken for years
Sure, sure. When Rogue, Dark and soO win they are gods tho, right?
Rogue himself admitted he was winning so much because Zerg is OP So he wanted to make use of that and win as much as possible before the nerfs come in.
Ironic is, the nerfs came, but they didnt help much, especially in ZvP. The problem of that matchup is not that banes have too much HP or that or that unit is too strong. Its that Zerg overall as a race is designed in a way which auto counters Protoss. In the end, SC2 is a game of numbers and if you design one race which can expand and grow so quickly and has the most swarmy units, while another one has to rely on slower growth, slower and less units with slower potential to rebuild, its very clear that one of them has a big advantage from the get go, especially in the hands on the best players. If P do not do a substantial amount of damage to the Zerg economy early, its game over no matter how perfect they play later in the game. We saw that yesterday (10 drones damage did nothing in the first 2 games. last game was even more apparent. 1 or 2 drones died + cancelled base. nothing at all).
I just dont think this matchup is fair. Some people admit that Zerg has the highest skill ceiling but just that alone is unfair. It means that equally skilled players cannot get to the same level because one of them is playing a better race than the other. This is a problem which is extremely hard to solve, because how do you do it without destroying ZvT? Its very tough and I think blizz see that, they just dont want to redesign their game at this stage which is understandable.
In the end, we will just have to bear with it. We'll get some small occasional nerfs for show, which might help some for a time, or we might get seasonal maps that are more unfavorable to Zerg which might also help for a time. But the core ZvP problem will always remain.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
How is one Kespa cup relevant? Was it a landmark for foreign starcraft? Yes. Was it a real achievement worth celebrating by korean standards? lol no, just look at soo's kespa cup and how no one considered his curse broken until Katowice 2019. Until i see Terran and Protoss competing evenly with Zerg with lots of blooming new talent i will call this 80% winrate out. Being white, charismatic( Reynor at least) and European doesn't change the fact that they're the modern versions of Sniper and Roro.
I like how you instantly put a condition on your statement that makes it nigh impossible to ever materialize.
Ok, demanding new talent is too much. I'll take one of the current top foreigner guys(or any foreigner really) winning anything.And yes i don't care about NA playoffs, and no, Clem won't pull it off without a couple more patches nudging one of the matchups his way. He, just like Trap had one of his best chances today. I'm sorry if the Sniper and Roro callouts seem excessive, but constant 80% winrate in a game with 3 races isn't normal, some of these Zergs are filling the Sniper/Roro shoes. Lets see who it is once the dust settles. Maybe one of them is Life, but being Sniper or Roro seems 10x more likely.
On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote: if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's: Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018 Terran: 1 premier tournament Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count)
Those Ps and Ts are nowhere near Reynor's skill level, at this point in time, so leaving them out would only play into your bias.
To the others posting their toxic spew and NaCl here:
LoLoL The reason why Blizzard doesn't listen to you is exactly because of your behavior, and because your complaints lack any logic. All the silly "statistics" you post, which you repeated do so almost the exact same thing week after week, only reveal your limited understanding of statistics, instead of supporting your bias. It's always amusing skimming through these emotional wrecks whenever a monstrous zerg takes a win. :D hahaha
Maru is nowhere near Reynor's skill level? he carried Terran harder than Reynor carried Zerg - (5 out of 28 tournaments for Reynor and 6 out of 9 tournaments for Maru) so it actually makes more sense to exclude his wins then to exclude Reynor's wins as he's the bigger outlier for his race
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
How is one Kespa cup relevant? Was it a landmark for foreign starcraft? Yes. Was it a real achievement worth celebrating by korean standards? lol no, just look at soo's kespa cup and how no one considered his curse broken until Katowice 2019. Until i see Terran and Protoss competing evenly with Zerg with lots of blooming new talent i will call this 80% winrate out. Being white, charismatic( Reynor at least) and European doesn't change the fact that they're the modern versions of Sniper and Roro.
I like how you instantly put a condition on your statement that makes it nigh impossible to ever materialize.
Ok, demanding new talent is excessive. I'll take one of the current top foreigner guys(or any foreigner really) winning anything.And yes i don't care about NA playoffs, and no, Clem won't pull it off without a couple more patches nudging one of the matchups his way. He, just like Trap had one of his best chances today. I'm sorry if the Sniper and Roro callouts seem excessive, but constant 80% winrate isn't normal, some of these Zergs are filling the Sniper/Roro shoes.
It‘s funny how you count some tournaments and ignore others. Tournaments in Europa, where Zerg has always had an overrepresentation? Count me in, it proves my point. NA, where traditionally Korean exports and other non-Zerg have been doing well? Na, not part of my argument. Clem can definitely pull a victory really if he keeps playing like he did this season and maybe with a bit of bracket luck. He is definitely in a position to beat both Serral and Reynor, it‘s just questionable if he can beat both of them back to back.
And it has been mentioned before, even though it does not affect Clem: Zerg has always been the least micro intensive race. Playing with a ping definitely hurts them less than a Terran or a Protoss. We‘ve seen lots of Bile hits we wouldn‘t ever see in an offline event. Additionally, the server selections seemed to be quite EU favoured as well and the time they played definitely favoured them as well vs. the Korean players. All this definitely helps in 2020 to make the dominance bigger than it actually is. Does that mean they wouldn‘t dominate offline? No idea, but 2020 definitely favours Reynor/Serral quite a lot. In Korea where the games are played offline, Zerg has not been doing remotely as well as in foreign land. It just counts less because we only had 3 tournaments in Korea. Which is btw. one factor that is constantly ignored. There are just so many more foreign tournaments than Korean tournaments that distort these discussions surrounding the champions so much.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
Weird top 7 foreigner of all time list without Neeb.
I rather put a top 8 with Lilbow in him despite a favorable meta and 1 good year... Anyway, his practice for 2021 will pay I am sure
People need to realize that Blizzard nergs other races because it's generally easier to see the issue there. Zerg is badly designed and Blizzard won't invest the money into SC2 Zerg redesign. It won't happen.
Several key design issues 1) Creep vs map size vs map vision vs the growht of skill (what wasn't an issue in WoL is an issue now) 2) Queen the omnipotent requirement for the Zerg. Creap spread unit, healing unit, early game anti-air and defensive unit, macro unit. 3) high eco requirement. Basically zergs should operate a base ahead. Which was fine BEFORE the eco changes as an early game harassment ment more eco loss and because you could have stayed longer on 2 bases. Now it's not possible
Blizzard won't touch any of these topics because they would require a heavy overhaul and big testing. They don't want to invest that much into SC2 so nothing will change and either find love for zerg or change the game. There's no other option. (pray for Code S but considering Trap's the best Protoss you have to pray for Terran)
Edit> as usual there's the option to help the other 2 races, but that's more work (IMO) that's why I name the issues of Zerg. Notice these weren't that big of an issue before(except queens) untill skill(#1) caught up with Blizzard's changes(#3)
It would be cool to have a feature to tag forum messages... You know.. to have like a "balance whine" tag so then we could filter out all these messages.
I know that in a thread like this there would be only 40-50 messages left but at least it would be readable.
On September 21 2020 18:34 fededevidev wrote: It would be cool to have a feature to tag forum messages... You know.. to have like a "balance whine" tag so then we could filter out all these messages.
I know that in a thread like this there would be only 40-50 messages left but at least it would be readable.
Congrats to Reynor anyway.
I was thinking about it yesterday. I wonder if there's a way to make a thread about a tournament where the balance discussion is just forbidden, so the people who want to celebrate the players can do that without a wall of whining between the posts.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
You forgot Jinro. Two Ro4's in Code S? No non-Korean players can't make that claim and will probably never. I would replace HuK with Need too.
What about Thorzain? Wasn't his win at Dreamhack over Polt the first major tournament win of a foreigner over a Korean? I'd think that would be worth a mention alongside Neeb.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
Weird top 7 foreigner of all time list without Neeb.
I rather put a top 8 with Lilbow in him despite a favorable meta and 1 good year... Anyway, his practice for 2021 will pay I am sure
In what universe has Scarlett accomplished more than Neeb, anyway? An absolutely hilarious list consisting of multiple foreigners who were hyped to high heaven and ultimately won so little.
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
Weird top 7 foreigner of all time list without Neeb.
I rather put a top 8 with Lilbow in him despite a favorable meta and 1 good year... Anyway, his practice for 2021 will pay I am sure
In what universe has Scarlett accomplished more than Neeb, anyway? An absolutely hilarious list consisting of multiple foreigners who were hyped to high heaven and ultimately won so little.
Oh Neeb is missing for sure and achieved more obviously, prolly top 3-4. Scarlett and Snute suffered from being very good in 2014 which is arguably the worst year for the foreigners ; then 2015 hots was rough for Z but the fact they still remained good for a long time make them at the top even if I never was a fan. Mana deserves a mention too.
I wonder how Serral will manage to come back from this. It was probably already difficult to slowly lose that #1 spot to Reynor in some tournaments, but at least he was still 2nd best without sweating too much. But now, falling from uncontested #1 to juggling between #1 and #2 to finally go 3rd among foreigners must be very difficult to digest. The player webcams were amazing this tournament as well, I have never seen Serral in such an emotional state for that many games.
Fantastic performance by Reynor. Not only did he absolutely dominate whenever everything was going to plan but he managed to turn around games from disadvantageous positions against the very best players on multiple occassions - Truly the mark of a champion!
On September 21 2020 07:46 Morbidius wrote: Interesting how foreigners can only tackle top Koreans when playing a particular race.
Your bitterness has gone through the roof. What you said is clearly not true, what about Neeb's KeSpa Cup?
So far only two foreign Zerg have become the best Sc2 player in the world, that's true; let's see what happens in the next years.
The fact remains foreigners have struggled immensely as terrans. Special is the best of the bunch, and I wouldn't even call him top 7 foreigner of all time
Reynor Serral Steph Nani Scarlett Snute HuK were all better...5 zergs 2 toss btw
Weird top 7 foreigner of all time list without Neeb.
I rather put a top 8 with Lilbow in him despite a favorable meta and 1 good year... Anyway, his practice for 2021 will pay I am sure
In what universe has Scarlett accomplished more than Neeb, anyway? An absolutely hilarious list consisting of multiple foreigners who were hyped to high heaven and ultimately won so little.
Oh Neeb is missing for sure and achieved more obviously, prolly top 3-4. Scarlett and Snute suffered from being very good in 2014 which is arguably the worst year for the foreigners ; then 2015 hots was rough for Z but the fact they still remained good for a long time make them at the top even if I never was a fan. Mana deserves a mention too.
Serral and Reynor lead the top foreigner list by a wide margin for obvious reasons. A lot of positive things can be said about Stephano in support of him being one of the top foreigners of all times, but for me his outstanding property is that he managed to win multiple tournaments with top Korean participants in times when no other foreigner managed to do so. This puts him firmly in 3rd place on the list of GOAT foreigners in my eyes. Afterwards it becomes really hard for me to further rank foreigners on their lifetime achievements. There have been a bunch of players with notable results but putting them in any order seems highly subjective. I for my part would instinctively put Neeb at 4th place but I can accept arguments that he should not even make top 8 on that list.
Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
EPT
So he wanted to make use of that and win as much as possible before the nerfs come in.
