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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On September 21 2020 04:43 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:39 royalroadweed wrote:On September 21 2020 04:26 yhellothere12 wrote:
Can we get an update on the Protoss/Zerg/Terran premier tournament wins over the last 2-3 years? Since 2018. 28 Z wins [Serral - 12, Reynor - 5, Rogue - 4, Dark - 3, Scarlett - 2, soO - 2] 9 T wins [Maru - 6, Inno - 2, TY - 1] 6 P wins [Stats - 2, Classic - 2, Neeb - 2] So even without Serral and Reynor it s still 11 Z 9 T 6 P E: Give 2 Z Wins to P and we re pretty much balanced  Minus Serral/ Reynor obviously
Making any statistics about wins with foreigner only tournaments in there is questionable at best. Foreigners are good only in zerging, occassionally in protossing and very rarely in terraning. Even if you look at it historically it won't help, the championship material was mostly zerg, some protosses, rarely terrans.
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Italy3963 Posts
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 21 2020 04:39 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:26 yhellothere12 wrote:
Can we get an update on the Protoss/Zerg/Terran premier tournament wins over the last 2-3 years? Since 2018. 28 Z wins [Serral - 12, Reynor - 5, Rogue - 4, Dark - 3, Scarlett - 2, soO - 2] 9 T wins [Maru - 6, Inno - 2, TY - 1] 6 P wins [Stats - 2, Classic - 2, Neeb - 2]
Are you sure you make your point stronger by counting DH Masters NA as premier tournament? Especially since if you truly count premier tournaments, Zergs are still favored with safe distance.
Same question applies to liquipedia editors, why are regional version of DH Masters even considered a premier.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
Well, it's a zergcraft and appears nobody cares. So, enjoy while we have at least something.
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On September 21 2020 04:50 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:46 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no? I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene. You were claiming exactly that though. Although i do agree looking just at the tournament wins is not enough.
I'm not excluding anyone. All I am saying is that it's a completely idiotic discussion in the first place. Just because I refuse to debate on false assumption does not mean that I want to turn the debate around in my favour. Is Zerg imbalanced? Might be. Are the tournament results of Serral and Reynor and therefore the huge imbalance in tournament victories any indication for this claim? Nope, absolutely not. That is literally all that I am saying. As long as we have only about ~11 tournament winners (with tournament taking place in EU, NA and KR with a distinct pool of players) over the timespan of 3 years, it is insanely stupid to base any balance discussion on the top finishers of these tournaments.
The main issue with this balance discussion is the distinct player pool between the different regions. It is a good thing, don't get me wrong. It helped the foreign scene a tremendous amount and Serral and Reynor are the most obvious proofs for that. And with the European scene being as Zerg heavy as it has been since the very beginning of SC2, these restrictions definitely helped Zerg more than the other races in terms of absolute numbers of tournaments they could win. At the same time, the top American players were kind of exported to Korea, with Scarlett, Astrea and Special playing in GSL for quite some time. Of course there are many international tournaments that are open to everyone. We all know that the Korean players - especially one specific Terran that is infamous for not showing up to such tournaments - are not as keen to show up to these international events though.
Summary: Yes, Zerg has won a lot of tournaments. However, with all the regional restrictions, the small amount of players that are even in contention to win a tournament and the different difficulties of premier tournaments that are thrown together, these tournament victories do not provide any basis for a meaningful discussion on balance.
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On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup.
On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup.
Did you actually go through and count the premier events from the start of the game to 2018 before making that statement? I find it hard to believe when looking at prize money won by each race. Zerg has won the most money in 6/10 years of SC2. They are also still in the lead even if you subtract Serral, Rogue, and Reynors totals which should get rid of most of the disparate earnings from 2018 on.
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Italy3963 Posts
On September 21 2020 05:16 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup. Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup. Did you actually go through and count the premier events from the start of the game to 2018 before making that statement? I find it hard to believe when looking at prize money won by each race. Zerg has won the most money in 6/10 years of SC2. They are also still in the lead even if you subtract Serral, Rogue, and Reynors totals which should get rid of most of the disparate earnings from 2018 on.
I did, Protoss was ahead by a dozen of tournaments over Zerg and some over Terran.
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I am so tired of arguing with these blatant Zerg shills. I don't fucking care about the insane metal gymnastics you're doing to justify Trap losing after killing 12 drones+sharp timing.
Zerg is imbalanced, and you guys are willing to let the game die to keep Zerg overpowered. Please stop lying to me, stop lying to the community, and stop lying to yourself.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 21 2020 05:16 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup. Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:58 Xain0n wrote:
Before this Zerg dominated era started, they were by far the race that won the least tournament in Sc2.
Balance played an important role in 2019, not so much in 2018 and 2020.
Protoss should have received senseful and effective compensations after the nerfs to Warp Prisms and Chargelots following their successful GSL Spring last year, they have never recovered from that leading to an alarming win ratio in the PvZ matchup. Did you actually go through and count the premier events from the start of the game to 2018 before making that statement? I find it hard to believe when looking at prize money won by each race. Zerg has won the most money in 6/10 years of SC2. They are also still in the lead even if you subtract Serral, Rogue, and Reynors totals which should get rid of most of the disparate earnings from 2018 on.
I think its because zerg won some big money tournaments. In terms of sheer tournament victories zerg did win the least in terms of premier tournaments pre-2018. Though I'm not sure if they were actually underrepresented in finals cause Jaedong, soo, byul and dark made to the finals of tons of tournaments but kept choking.
Edit: Symbol too now that I think about it. There's been a lot of zerg kongs.
Edit2:
Winners
Year: Z - T - P
2011: 9 - 19 - 8
2012: 18 - 13 - 15
2013: 8 - 14 - 9
2014: 7 - 13 - 15
2015: 6 - 3 - 11
2016: 8 - 7 - 8
2017: 4 - 6 - 7
60 - 75 - 73
Runner ups
Year: Z - T - P
2011: 12 - 9 - 15
2012: 17 - 12 - 16
2013: 16 - 3 - 12
2014: 9 - 14 - 13
2015: 12 - 3 - 5
2016: 10 - 3 - 10
2017: 10 - 3 - 4
86 - 47 - 75
LOTV has not been good for terran. Though I don;t know if its lotv or region locking stopping korean terrans from big brothering EU and NA tournaments.
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if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's:
Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018
Terran: 1 premier tournament
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count)
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's:
Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018
Terran: 1 premier tournament
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count)
The key question still is why when you add the runner ups it doesn't look so dominated. What's different and why so many Zergs can actually win and why so many other players lose. Even when you remove foreigner lands where is a skill gap between Reynor/Serral and the rest it's still a valid question for the Korean scene. Maru not winning means no other Terran can win? (sorry not sorry TY )
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Even if Zerg ends up winning, at least this tournament had a nice mix of matchups all the way through the finals, and Clem beating Serral is a major shakeup.
Have a look at this tournament for how much worse it has been:
 2012 Battle.net World Championship
4 Terrans total, one advanced to the RO16 and got eliminated...
With tournaments like that one in the memory, it is easy to forget we recently had TvT GSL finals and that there was more P than Z entering the ongoing GSL.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On September 21 2020 06:05 Slydie wrote:Even if Zerg ends up winning, at least this tournament had a nice mix of matchups all the way through the finals, and Clem beating Serral is a major shakeup. Have a look at this tournament for how much worse it has been: 2012 Battle.net World Championship4 Terrans total, one advanced to the RO16 and got eliminated... With tournaments like that one in the memory, it is easy to forget we recently had TvT GSL finals.
That's because Code S is the only tournament where a terran is realiably successful.
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On September 21 2020 05:55 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's:
Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018
Terran: 1 premier tournament
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count) The key question still is why when you add the runner ups it doesn't look so dominated. What's different and why so many Zergs can actually win and why so many other players lose. Even when you remove foreigner lands where is a skill gap between Reynor/Serral and the rest it's still a valid question for the Korean scene. Maru not winning means no other Terran can win? (sorry not sorry TY )
The runner ups aren't reliable. These are mostly single elimination tournaments. You don't know if the winner eliminated the true second strongest player during his bracket run. Just off the top of my head I recall Serral eliminated dark in the semis of one of the GSL vs the World tournaments where Dark likely would have made it to the finals were he on the other side of the bracket.
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On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's:
Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018
Terran: 1 premier tournament
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count)
Those Ps and Ts are nowhere near Reynor's skill level, at this point in time, so leaving them out would only play into your bias.
To the others posting their toxic spew and NaCl here:
LoLoL The reason why Blizzard doesn't listen to you is exactly because of your behavior, and because your complaints lack any logic. All the silly "statistics" you post, which you repeated do so almost the exact same thing week after week, only reveal your limited understanding of statistics, instead of supporting your bias. It's always amusing skimming through these emotional wrecks whenever a monstrous zerg takes a win. :D hahaha
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On September 21 2020 06:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 06:05 Slydie wrote:Even if Zerg ends up winning, at least this tournament had a nice mix of matchups all the way through the finals, and Clem beating Serral is a major shakeup. Have a look at this tournament for how much worse it has been: 2012 Battle.net World Championship4 Terrans total, one advanced to the RO16 and got eliminated... With tournaments like that one in the memory, it is easy to forget we recently had TvT GSL finals. That's because Code S is the only tournament where a terran is realiably successful.
It was TY vs Cure...
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On September 21 2020 06:12 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 05:55 deacon.frost wrote:On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
if you remove Serral and Reynor from the equationyou have to also remove the 2 best Ps and Ts for a fair comparison. Then it's:
Zerg: 11 premier tournaments since 2018
Terran: 1 premier tournament
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count) The key question still is why when you add the runner ups it doesn't look so dominated. What's different and why so many Zergs can actually win and why so many other players lose. Even when you remove foreigner lands where is a skill gap between Reynor/Serral and the rest it's still a valid question for the Korean scene. Maru not winning means no other Terran can win? (sorry not sorry TY ) The runner ups aren't reliable. These are mostly single elimination tournaments. You don't know if the winner eliminated the true second strongest player during his bracket run. Just off the top of my head I recall Serral eliminated dark in the semis of one of the GSL vs the World tournaments where Dark likely would have made it to the finals were he on the other side of the bracket.
If there's an issue with a racial balance then the runner ups should be more zergy as well, shouldn't they?  You cannot rely on the Zerg victor to eliminate the Zerg potential runner up every time before the infals
On September 21 2020 06:15 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 06:09 deacon.frost wrote:On September 21 2020 06:05 Slydie wrote:Even if Zerg ends up winning, at least this tournament had a nice mix of matchups all the way through the finals, and Clem beating Serral is a major shakeup. Have a look at this tournament for how much worse it has been: 2012 Battle.net World Championship4 Terrans total, one advanced to the RO16 and got eliminated... With tournaments like that one in the memory, it is easy to forget we recently had TvT GSL finals. That's because Code S is the only tournament where a terran is realiably successful. It was TY vs Cure...
The point was/is, that Code S is the only tournament where you see Terrans win. Occassionally elsewhere. WESG is there too, well ,was, before the fuck up. But since there's so many other big tournaments where Terrans don't win it seems the other way around. (edit> meaning it seems Terrans can't win and screw TY/Maru (Code S, ST))
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On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count)
My favourite meme from protoss apologists
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On September 21 2020 06:34 THERIDDLER wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 05:47 Charoisaur wrote:
Protoss: 0 premier tournaments (Dreamhack NA doesn't count) My favourite meme from protoss apologists
What could we possibly have to apologize for
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Huge, huge congrats to Reynor, well played and well deserved victory in a really good tournament, with a lot of great games. Thanks to ESL, the production and the casters: at the end of the day it's so nice to be able to enjoy a tournament like this during these hard times... That said, I can't wait to finally see an offline event, let's hope to see it again in 2021.
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EPT
