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On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years, are we?
Why would discount those? What other players are we removing if we are excluding data points? Do we remove Maru, TY and Stats too?
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On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry.
Ignoring that fact zerg still has more tournament wins than the other 2.
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Disruptors are extremely powerful when the protoss' opponent has high ping. Reynor clearly outplayed Trap in nearly every single game, and still managed to have 3 games go to Trap. There were too many instances of novas catching a couple high-value units, where an additional 80ms could've saved them.
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On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry.
The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no?
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Is there a way to nerf just Serral/Reynor?
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On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry.
You can remove the top performer of each race and zerg would still be on top. I'd assume it works for top 2, top 3, top 5 performers even 
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On September 21 2020 04:39 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:26 yhellothere12 wrote:
Can we get an update on the Protoss/Zerg/Terran premier tournament wins over the last 2-3 years? Since 2018. 28 Z wins [Serral - 12, Reynor - 5, Rogue - 4, Dark - 3, Scarlett - 2, soO - 2] 9 T wins [Maru - 6, Inno - 2, TY - 1] 6 P wins [Stats - 2, Classic - 2, Neeb - 2]
So even without Serral and Reynor it s still
11 Z
9 T
6 P
E: Give 2 Z Wins to P and we re pretty much balanced
Minus Serral/ Reynor obviously
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On September 21 2020 04:42 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years, are we? Why would discount those? What other players are we removing if we are excluding data points? Do we remove Maru, TY and Stats too?
Well, I'm definitely not claiming Terran was overpowered in 2018 and early 2019 simply because Maru won every GSL that year. Which is literally the same discussion.
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On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no?
Its crazy how much Maru carried terran in the last 2 years. 6/9 or apx 67% of all terran tournament wins.
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On September 21 2020 04:43 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:42 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years, are we? Why would discount those? What other players are we removing if we are excluding data points? Do we remove Maru, TY and Stats too? Well, I'm definitely not claiming Terran was overpowered in 2018 simply because Maru won every GSL that year. Which is literally the same discussion.
2018 still had more zerg wins even with Maru.
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Anyways, Trap won my heart yet again. Unofficial champ for me.
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On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no?
I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene.
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Italy3963 Posts
Nice one Riccardo!
I'm sad for Trap being a Kong and for the Protoss race that definitely needs help in PvZ.
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On September 21 2020 04:46 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no? I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene.
Okay, add second place finishers and it is just as lopsided. 1st place: 71% Z. 2nd place: 46% Z.
If you're going to pick and choose what data you want to include or not, at least exclude the top of the other races too. It should be telling that the first time we see dominating foreigners, we see them as Z at time when Z is by far overrepresented as victors.
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On September 21 2020 04:46 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no? I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene.
But it's not based on tournament victories alone, is it. I hate terran and even I could tell that Clem was way outplaying Reynor, at least in that Eternal Empire game. People talk about the games in the LR thread all the time. PvZ is worse than TvZ so I can't imagine that the finals, that I couldn't be bothered to watch, was any different.
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On September 21 2020 04:46 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no? I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene.
You were claiming exactly that though. Although i do agree looking just at the tournament wins is not enough.
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On September 21 2020 02:33 Vindicare605 wrote:
Business as usual for Trap. Knock out the Terran favorite just to get embarassed by the Zerg.
I hate being right so often.
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i know i was kind of balance whining but don't want to take away too much credit from Reynor and Serral; I think if the races were more balanced they would still both be among the top 5 players. But that doesn't mean I think PvZ is well balanced.
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On September 21 2020 04:35 NaKajin1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:34 Z3nith wrote:On September 21 2020 04:32 NaKajin1 wrote:
Fun fact, the last active Protoss to win a tournament will now be Zest in 2017 Stats? Didn't he just retired?
He's got GSL in 3 weeks, I wouldn't call that retired
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On September 21 2020 04:46 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 04:42 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2020 04:41 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:40 Lexender wrote:On September 21 2020 04:39 Swisslink wrote:On September 21 2020 04:37 Calliope wrote:On September 21 2020 04:35 Anc13nt wrote:
every time i think the last time protoss won a gsl/blizzcon/iem wc was early 2017 i feel like it's too late to save protoss. Zerg is 71% victories the past 3 years, I think the balance team has abandoned the game. But we can do our part, take context into account and talk about the best players of the respective races, instead of just counting raw tournament results (like feardragon). We're still on board ignoring the fact that almost exclusively Reynor and Serral won any tournaments in the past 3 years? Rogue, Dark, soO and Scarlett play an unidentified 4th race apparently. Not really the point. The statistics are just hugely distorted by the 17 tournament victories Serral and Reynor have collected. Ignoring that fact is just absurd, sorry. The statics are also distort by Maru. Take him out no? I'm not claiming we should remove anyone. I'm just claiming that basing any discussion on tournament victories alone is completely dumb, especially if tournament victories are collected by such a small amount of players. That was dumb when Maru dominated Korea and it's dumb when Serral/Reynor dominate the foreign scene.
A lot of discussion regarding the best players revolve around tournament victories. Fans would also like to see some of their favourite player win now and again. So I would say its pretty f-ing relevant that one race has for long time had much more success when it comes to big tournament wins. I would say it also is relevant for the future of sc2 if new players enter the scene. What if a talented toss decides to focus on the game today. He will look at the stats and realize that even if he does some amazing performances he most likely win not get any wins, nor much prize money. Not much incitament to dedicate all his time to dive into that future.
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EPT
