On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
You ignore one major difference to the BL-Infestor era. Back then, we had all kinds of Zerg that suddenly appeared on the scene and were in contention to win even big tournaments or advance until they are matched against another Zerg. Nowadays we have Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue and if those disappoint, no one would sincerely expect a Zerg to do really well in a tournament with a serious competition. Of course there might be players that reach a Ro4 once a year like DRG last season, but overall they are not severely overrepresented. They actually had the exactly same amount of Ro4 players as Protoss in the past 3 years (9, Only 7 Terrans advanced as far in the premier international tournaments). And these 9 players advanced 43 times for Protoss and 43 times for Zerg (25 for Terran). That's absolutely no comparison to back in the days of BL+Infestor, where tons and tons of Zerg suddenly did really freaking well (there were in absolute numbers of players, as well as in Ro4 finishes far more Zerg than the other two races) and Zerg ultimately ended up having 55-60% winrate in many tournaments.
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
Race distribution in current GSL: 10P-11T-7Z to 5P-6T-5Z Race distribution in 2012 S5: 9P-14T-9Z to 2P-6T-8Z Race distribution in last WoL GSL: 5P-13T-14Z to 3P-5T-8Z.
Do you understand why nobody sane is making comparisons of current period to late WoL? And that's not to say Zerg is balanced, ZvP is clearly still broken.
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
Race distribution in current GSL Ro16: 5P-6T-5Z Race distribution in 2012 S5 Ro16: 2P-6T-8Z Race distribution in last WoL GSL: 3P-5T-8Z.
Do you understand why nobody sane is making comparisons of current period to late WoL? At present the only truly broken beyond redemption match-up is ZvP, otherwise it's a perfectly imbalanced T>Z>P>T.
Using GSL Ro16s is not a great argument given how few strong players are left in Korea. Balance could be seriously out of whack and the GSL Ro16 ratios wouldn't change much since there's such a skill gap between the 'pros' and the contenders.
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
Race distribution in current GSL Ro16: 5P-6T-5Z Race distribution in 2012 S5 Ro16: 2P-6T-8Z Race distribution in last WoL GSL: 3P-5T-8Z.
Do you understand why nobody sane is making comparisons of current period to late WoL? At present the only truly broken beyond redemption match-up is ZvP, otherwise it's a perfectly imbalanced T>Z>P>T.
Using GSL Ro16s is not a great argument given how few strong players are left in Korea. Balance could be seriously out of whack and the GSL Ro16 ratios wouldn't change much since there's such a skill gap between the 'pros' and the contenders.
I agree it's not a good argument for balance. For example the most broken balance-wise GSL on recent memory had perfect 50% ratio between in Ro32 and Ro16 for every race. But it's fine enough of argument that it is a very far cry from late WoL state of the game.
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
Race distribution in current GSL Ro16: 5P-6T-5Z Race distribution in 2012 S5 Ro16: 2P-6T-8Z Race distribution in last WoL GSL: 3P-5T-8Z.
Do you understand why nobody sane is making comparisons of current period to late WoL? At present the only truly broken beyond redemption match-up is ZvP, otherwise it's a perfectly imbalanced T>Z>P>T.
Using GSL Ro16s is not a great argument given how few strong players are left in Korea. Balance could be seriously out of whack and the GSL Ro16 ratios wouldn't change much since there's such a skill gap between the 'pros' and the contenders.
I agree it's not a good argument for balance. For example the most broken balance-wise GSL on recent memory had perfect 50% ratio between in Ro32 and Ro16 for every race. But it's fine enough of argument that it is a very far cry from late WoL state of the game.
It's really not though. All it proves is that the balance isn't so bad that full time pros are losing to amateur Zergs. I am extremely confident that with this balance 5 years ago GSL would be half Zerg.
Sample pool in KR is too small for a quantitative analysis.
One important factor, I feel, is how the current meta favours defensive, macro and turtlish Zergs (traditional EU style). Whereas top KR Zergs now happen to be the aggro-IDGAF types like Rogue and Dark.
Imagine peak Soulkey (or even Byul) playing now. They'll be dominating tourneys, stomping Inno into retirement, and forcing Blizz to re-patch LOTV to 6 workers...
So I feel the 'foreigner bias' (if any) is indirect. Blizz and the community closes one eye because the meta has been boosting foreigner chances of winning and the popularity of the game. If this happened 5 years ago and top KR macro Zergs are pwning everyone's ass, there would be a quicker reaction to 'fix' balance...
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
Race distribution in current GSL Ro16: 5P-6T-5Z Race distribution in 2012 S5 Ro16: 2P-6T-8Z Race distribution in last WoL GSL: 3P-5T-8Z.
Do you understand why nobody sane is making comparisons of current period to late WoL? At present the only truly broken beyond redemption match-up is ZvP, otherwise it's a perfectly imbalanced T>Z>P>T.
Using GSL Ro16s is not a great argument given how few strong players are left in Korea. Balance could be seriously out of whack and the GSL Ro16 ratios wouldn't change much since there's such a skill gap between the 'pros' and the contenders.
I agree it's not a good argument for balance. For example the most broken balance-wise GSL on recent memory had perfect 50% ratio between in Ro32 and Ro16 for every race. But it's fine enough of argument that it is a very far cry from late WoL state of the game.
It's really not though. All it proves is that the balance isn't so bad that full time pros are losing to amateur Zergs. I am extremely confident that with this balance 5 years ago GSL would be half Zerg.
Since there is literally NO indication to that being the case, that‘s a hard claim to make. There are currently a few Zerg that do extremely well. 5 years ago there were a few Zerg that did extremely well and suddenly every tournament was flooded with Zerg because of the state balance. Ignoring that aspect and claiming „oh well, there are just not enough players left to flood the tournaments“ is just straight up ridiculous. I would argue right now we have a smaller sample size of Ro8 representation in international premier tournaments for Zerg compared to the other races. Simply because now, especially with soO being gone, there is pretty much no one left who is able zo get past the other players.
It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
On September 22 2020 11:04 RKC wrote: Sample pool in KR is too small for a quantitative analysis.
One important factor, I feel, is how the current meta favours defensive, macro and turtlish Zergs (traditional EU style). Whereas top KR Zergs now happen to be the aggro-IDGAF types like Rogue and Dark.
Imagine peak Soulkey (or even Byul) playing now. They'll be dominating tourneys, stomping Inno into retirement, and forcing Blizz to re-patch LOTV to 6 workers...
So I feel the 'foreigner bias' (if any) is indirect. Blizz and the community closes one eye because the meta has been boosting foreigner chances of winning and the popularity of the game. If this happened 5 years ago and top KR macro Zergs are pwning everyone's ass, there would be a quicker reaction to 'fix' balance...
The only foreign bias in 2020 I see isn't meta related, but has to do with Covid and unfavourable tournament hours for koreans and possibly server latency, but I sadly think online tournaments is the future for SC2 as the game popularity fades away. I don't know how big of a factor that is, but props to Serral an Reynor anyway for staying on top of their game. Also Clem has impressed me with his style that's similar to Maru's.
I actually think that instead of focusing on nerfing zergs to oblivion, the community should focus more on map balance. Professional map makers should put more work to bring innovative maps. It worked in BW, just make the maps more protoss and terran favourite to compensate when zergs are dominating. I wouldn't actually mind reworking or buffing some protoss or terran units that don't see much play or aren't as effective, changing the role of a unit or 2 can't be bad when the meta is stale.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushers and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
Zest, Stats and Trap are the best solid protoss players. Parting is more cheesy like sOs, rarely plays late game, but with the current PvZ meta I don't blame him. Can't the map makers somehow just make the maps more terran or protoss favourite when zerg is dominating, it worked in BW?
On September 22 2020 11:04 RKC wrote: Sample pool in KR is too small for a quantitative analysis.
One important factor, I feel, is how the current meta favours defensive, macro and turtlish Zergs (traditional EU style). Whereas top KR Zergs now happen to be the aggro-IDGAF types like Rogue and Dark.
Imagine peak Soulkey (or even Byul) playing now. They'll be dominating tourneys, stomping Inno into retirement, and forcing Blizz to re-patch LOTV to 6 workers...
So I feel the 'foreigner bias' (if any) is indirect. Blizz and the community closes one eye because the meta has been boosting foreigner chances of winning and the popularity of the game. If this happened 5 years ago and top KR macro Zergs are pwning everyone's ass, there would be a quicker reaction to 'fix' balance...
Is the game really popular because of it though? Sure in 2018 it might have helped, but I think 2019 disgusted a lot of people. Don’t know if it showed in numbers though
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
This is exactly why people are complaining about the casters lately. So what Clem defeated Serral? Its not the first time and Serral is not immortal any more. Clem is one of the best TvZ players in the world, it would actually be sad it he did not defeat Serral from time to time.
The other comments are just utterly ridiculous. You should probably watch more SC2, because Trap has been the best PvZ player for at least 2+ months now and by a big margin. Also its a straight up lie to say he always struggled in PvZ, he only struggled for a couple of months, whereas almost all protosses are clueless for years now aside from a few adepts BS and cheesy victories.
Its very simple. Trap outplayed Reynor in 5 games out of 7 in the finals. He still lost. Everyone saw that, and that is what we are pissed about. Its not Reynor, its not Serral, they are amazing players, one of the best in the world, but its the freaking ZvP, where if P does anything below 20 drone damage against a top Zerg early, they stand 0 chance to win. Even though they play perfectly. Game 1 and 2 of the finals were great example of that, utterly ridiculous, go rewatch that. If killing a dozen drones early, beating 2 Z armies with perfect control isnt enough to win the matchup is just straight up unfair. And losing because of miscontrolled 6 zealots. Come on...
I wish Rogue lived in Europe. Maybe if he took the Serral/Reynor mantle and shown everyone how broked Zerg is, which he himself admitted, the EU elitist casters would wake up
Its very simple. Trap outplayed Reynor in 5 games out of 7 in the finals. He still lost. Everyone saw that, and that is what we are pissed about. Its not Reynor, its not Serral, they are amazing players, one of the best in the world, but its the freaking ZvP, where if P does anything below 20 drone damage against a top Zerg early, they stand 0 chance to win. Even though they play perfectly.
Telling Ret, of all people, to get a clue and go watch more Starcraft is hilarious. Meanwhile there are many Mariano guys on ladder, but none of them past 3k mmr. I'm sure you watch loads of starcraft, but your post makes it painfully obvious you don't understand what you're watching.
Trap playing "perfectly" ? What the hell are you smoking ? Did you see how many immortals, collossi and dispruptors Trap rallied into Reynor's armies ? Do you understand how big of a difference even one extra immortal can make in a fight ? Trap really should have won the Pillars of Gold game, and he didn't need to play anywhere close to perfect to do so.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
Yes, Clem beating both Serral and Reynor in series during the tournament should be a bigger story. It is also interresting how quickly it was forgotten that Rogue bombed out of the RO8, after being named a favourite to win the whole thing after the group stages.
Poor Zerg players, even when 2 favourites got beaten early, all the talk is about the one who won.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
This is exactly why people are complaining about the casters lately. So what Clem defeated Serral? Its not the first time and Serral is not immortal any more. Clem is one of the best TvZ players in the world, it would actually be sad it he did not defeat Serral from time to time.
The other comments are just utterly ridiculous. You should probably watch more SC2, because Trap has been the best PvZ player for at least 2+ months now and by a big margin. Also its a straight up lie to say he always struggled in PvZ, he only struggled for a couple of months, whereas almost all protosses are clueless for years now aside from a few adepts BS and cheesy victories.
Its very simple. Trap outplayed Reynor in 5 games out of 7 in the finals. He still lost. Everyone saw that, and that is what we are pissed about. Its not Reynor, its not Serral, they are amazing players, one of the best in the world, but its the freaking ZvP, where if P does anything below 20 drone damage against a top Zerg early, they stand 0 chance to win. Even though they play perfectly. Game 1 and 2 of the finals were great example of that, utterly ridiculous, go rewatch that. If killing a dozen drones early, beating 2 Z armies with perfect control isnt enough to win the matchup is just straight up unfair. And losing because of miscontrolled 6 zealots. Come on...
I wish Rogue lived in Europe. Maybe if he took the Serral/Reynor mantle and shown everyone how broked Zerg is, which he himself admitted, the EU elitist casters would wake up
You have a really weird definition of perfection. And no, Trap wasn't even close to control his army perfectly. Losing units to biles, rallying units into the fight and losing them without hitting anything, charging an entire warp-in into a bunch of Banelings while on a timer. That's not perfection. Not even close. Yes, errors for Trap in these situations mattered more than the mistakes Reynor did while nothing was going on. Wanna know why? Because these were game deciding fights. If Reynor rallied in his reinforcements into Trap's army, guess what would have happened? Exactly, he'd have lost the game immediately. What do you think would have happened if he charged all his banelings into an immortal while Trap was pushing? Simple: Game over. In these situations, Trap just had more errors in his play than Reynor. Over the entirety of the game that might not have been the case, agreed. However, these are the situations where it matters the most. And Reynor's control in these situations was incredible. Definitely better than Trap on the other side (which might have been the case because Trap had to struggle with a higher ping and the fact that he had to play at 4 AM. I'm not gonna argue about that whatsoever. It's just weird to point out pefection if there were these obvious and gamechanging errors).
And that's nothing new to the game. If a Terran pushes a Zerg with widow mines and the Zerg loses his banelings to a Mine hit, it's game over immediately. If he loses the banelings somewhere out on the map while nothing is going on, it's not that big of a deal. If the Terran warps in one BC early on in the game and loses it, it's a big deal. If he sits on 5-6 BC's and loses one to Corrupters on his side of the field, it still hurts, but it's not even remotely as big of a problem.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
This is exactly why people are complaining about the casters lately. So what Clem defeated Serral? Its not the first time and Serral is not immortal any more. Clem is one of the best TvZ players in the world, it would actually be sad it he did not defeat Serral from time to time.
The other comments are just utterly ridiculous. You should probably watch more SC2, because Trap has been the best PvZ player for at least 2+ months now and by a big margin. Also its a straight up lie to say he always struggled in PvZ, he only struggled for a couple of months, whereas almost all protosses are clueless for years now aside from a few adepts BS and cheesy victories.
Its very simple. Trap outplayed Reynor in 5 games out of 7 in the finals. He still lost. Everyone saw that, and that is what we are pissed about. Its not Reynor, its not Serral, they are amazing players, one of the best in the world, but its the freaking ZvP, where if P does anything below 20 drone damage against a top Zerg early, they stand 0 chance to win. Even though they play perfectly. Game 1 and 2 of the finals were great example of that, utterly ridiculous, go rewatch that. If killing a dozen drones early, beating 2 Z armies with perfect control isnt enough to win the matchup is just straight up unfair. And losing because of miscontrolled 6 zealots. Come on...
I wish Rogue lived in Europe. Maybe if he took the Serral/Reynor mantle and shown everyone how broked Zerg is, which he himself admitted, the EU elitist casters would wake up
And that's nothing new to the game. If a Terran pushes a Zerg with widow mines and the Zerg loses his banelings to a Mine hit, it's game over immediately. If he loses the banelings somewhere out on the map while nothing is going on, it's not that big of a deal. If the Terran warps in one BC early on in the game and loses it, it's a big deal. If he sits on 5-6 BC's and loses one to Corrupters on his side of the field, it still hurts, but it's not even remotely as big of a problem.
It's great that we get this description of the volatility of the games from a Z point of view. You seem to feel the need to remind us that zerg is capable of losing from single mistakes, probably because we very rarely actually get to see these kind of losses at high levels of play. What is far more common are these drawn out death rattles from the opponent, where we a see game kicking off at the 70 drone point in time and we either see a parade kind of push fizzle out on a pretty uncontested creep (how often do we actually see any real damage to creep done by hellions?) or the opponent lives so long that we actually get to the viper phase and there are disruptors and liberators flying like eagles through the air.
Three years of premier tournaments and a >70% zerg winrate is by no means an insufficient quantity when it comes to drawing conclusions. Given that the quality of the sampling is good, as little as 20 data points suffice for preliminary conclusions. And this time, the sampling is fantastic, because if there is anywhere you want the game to be balanced it is at the very highest level (where it incidentally is the most lopsided right now) which is the most interesting to the viewer. I am saying this a zerg myself who could not care less about my losing my ladder points (to quote tastosis) when viewer enjoyment is on the line: Zergs need to stop forcing convoluted reasoning justifying skewed results just to protect their own 3k efforts on the ladder.
It is time that the game be fixed, by nerfs (looking at the queen, seriously, wtf) or by maps, just let us see a more even representation of winning races. The foreigners can't be wrong, go z or go bust.
On September 22 2020 03:27 Calliope wrote: Everyone will admit what bad of a state the game was in during the BL+infestor era (after which Apollo called JohnnyRecco the best example of a patch zerg), but now, with very similar tournament outcomes people will suddenly go out of their way to explain by any means but occam's razor that the top zergs are just more talented than the top players of the other races (except Rogue, who is unusually honest).
There is only race with which foreigners consistently beat Koreans and it usually happens at a time when Zerg dominate not only 1st place finishers but 2nd place finishers.
This is nowhere near BL infestor. In the BL infestor era EVERYONE was gaining from the Zerg advantage. Nowadays only few top zergs get the boost (Reynor, Serral, Dark, Rogue(the latter two based on their wrists/mood)). The majority of wins is based on these 4 and the brackets don't look like in the BL infestor era(full of zergs). That's the issue, either you don't remember the flood of zergs from nowhere back then or you ignore it. Now it's a different situations, the tournament victors are in a huge majority zergs, so big that the other two races cannot compete even with combined victories. yet it doesn't affect EVERY zerg player out there.
On September 22 2020 16:24 Liquid`Ret wrote: It's sad how much balance whine there is for a tournament where Clem defeated serral, as well as defeating reynor in the european finals to make top2.
It should be celebrated that there is a new contender on the block, who's showing real promise in this event.
The finals ended with a 4-3 for reynor vs a protoss who is, historically, always been an expert at PvT and never was known for having good PvZ.
PvZ zerg might be favored for sure, but one also has to wonder: Which protoss players are we expecting to win nowadays?
It seems there is Stats, Trap, PartinG, Zest, sOs, Patience and then Zoun.
Out of these, Stats has always been a top contender, Trap too but never in PvZ. PartinG probably is among the highest potential, and has a very good pvz (lots of cannon rushes and things), and who knows about Zoun.
I'd expect Stats/PartinG vs reynor/serral to always be a close match, which could go either way. All the other players I would imagine would lose against reynor/serral in current form regardless of balance.
For me, the finals, the rise of clem, and an incredible champion made me love this tournament!
You do realize that in the last 2 and 3/4 years zergs won 65 % of the premiere tournaments? And the other two races COMBINED won 35 % of the tournaments. That of all the players in the finals 51 % of them were zergs? Which means, that there wasn't enough Terrans and Protoss players to gather enough players to have at least majority of players in the finals, if not winning them!
Now, do you wonder that people are getting tired to see 2 out of 3 tournaments being won by a zerg? That after 5 world championship titles won by zergs they wonna see another race to win? That in the period there were 6, SIX, Protoss champions while zergs won 29 titles! Out of those 6 Protoss champs 2 victories were done by Classic(retired) and 2 by Need at NA? (yes, the rest is on Stats). 9 tournament victories done by Terrans, 5 of them by Maru.
But hey, let's celebrate Clem! and 29th victory of zergs...
Edit> Hey, I add one fun fact. Even if you remove Serral from the equation, Zergs still have more victories than Terran and Protoss players combined! And I am a good person, because Serral makes only 38 % of Zerg titles, Maru makes 55 % of the Terrans, so technically if you remove Serral you should remove Maru... which does make things ugly.
Edit 2> again, that's 2,75 years long domination of zergs in the premiere tournaments. Almost. Three. Years.
Edit 3> talking about years 2018, 2019, 2020. That's why Rogue's WC title which started all this(more or less) is missing.
EPT
