EPTalso, if they're droning to 80 you should have the option to place a 3rd with some cannons and then prepare a hold for whatever zerg throws at you.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 306
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
also, if they're droning to 80 you should have the option to place a 3rd with some cannons and then prepare a hold for whatever zerg throws at you. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Not opening stargate should actually give you considerably more map presence though; that's where you are going wrong. 3base blink builds allow you to push on the maps at more or less random times, without being punished for it, and allow you to hit very powerful +2 blink timings off 3bases, while getting good tech behind them. This means that if the zerg tries to do stuff like double expand in response to your quick third, or rushing to mutas off of only drones and a handful of lings, he will get punished by your +2 blink timing (or even an earlier attack, as shown by classic in this game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/463416-tl-strategy-presents-classic-vs-soo). Not having stargate is also not important for scouting. Stargate units themselves do not accomplish nearly enough to give you full information, you need to be relying on hallucinations instead. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24578 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 10 2014 16:31 DinoMight wrote: Guys I'm having some problems with PvZ. If I open Phoenixes, they drone to 80, take the whole map, and win eventually. If I open with Oracle and take a fast 3rd, same thing. If I don't open Stargate I have zero map presence and I die to some unscouted tech. Any games you recommend watching just to catch up on some standard PvZ? I stopped playing for a bit and I've gotten REALLY bad at this game -____-. Scout constantly with hallucinated phoenix instead. Sending 2 hallucinations at a time (or one after the other) helps you look for things more thoroughly. Scouting with stargate units is not reliable because they take real damage. Having an observer in front of the zerg's natural helps as well. It's a habit and it takes practice. It's very easy to scout once at 9:30-10:00 and forget to do it again later on, but there's no way around it and you have to make a point of getting it right. You can leave a sentry in your natural for defense and also use it as a back up if your main army doesn't have enough energy to send 1-2 hallucinations. What most pros were doing when I stopped playing on the ladder a couple of months ago was taking a fast third with quick blink (and then get a robo and tech to whatever you see fit on 3 bases) and going up to 10 gates I believe (or at least 7). Then you move out on the map to attack the zerg, which helps deal with people who tech straight to mutas or tech and expand like crazy. You can also incorporate a warp prism to pin the zerg back. If they're double expanding (4th and 5th), you should most likely be able to deny one of these bases. CJherO usually takes his third after going oracle and makes 1-2 voidrays to help defend it. Having a few of them is obviously good against corruptors too later on. I have seen other players skip the stargate altogether and attempt to take a faster third. Both builds help you deal with more aggressive zergs in the midgame as well as punish greedy zergs or fight for map control while teching behind it. It's interesting because it sets up your economy first and allows you to tech with a reasonable unit count while having a cost efficient midgame. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Any good vods of it being done correctly? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Whether you say the purpose of the warp prism is harassment or pinning the zerg back is pretty much arguing semantics. I don't know if that's what it sounded like, but I'm not saying you're going to literally contain the zerg. What you do achieve is either doing some damage or keeping some of his army in his base (hence pinning back), while your mobile blink stalker force goes around the map doing business. EDIT On November 10 2014 23:17 DinoMight wrote: Whenever I try 3 base Blink I usually die a horrible death to Ling/Hydra. Any good vods of it being done correctly? I don't think there's any secret. Make sure you have enough units. Force field and blink properly. Get aoe. You could make some zealots to deal with lings depending on how many there are, but your blink stalker ball becomes progressively better in higher numbers so you don't want too many zealots. I personally avoid them unless I need the gas for something else, or if my stalker count is low and I need something to deal with lings asap. It shouldn't be too hard to force field the hydras away and kill the lings first anyway. Stalkers can fight hydras just fine if you blink well. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Phoenixes Pros: -Always deal some damage: drones, queens and overlords all over the map; -They have more HP combined than an oracle ; -they can help during engagements and lift hydralisks; -they can be useful against a mutalisk switch in the mid game if you keep them alive Cons: -they are pretty expensive (750/500 for 5 of them which is the standard) ; -they are useless against roaches, Corruptors and ling timings Oracle+Voidray Pros: -cheaper (400/300 total) which means you'll have a larger army/faster third/tech; -the oracle can easily deal with speedling pressures; -the void ray can snipe overlords and deal with roaches and corruptors which makes you overall safer; -if the zerg player is caught off guard you can kill a ton of drones at the same time; -the oracle can provide detection and revelation later on; -the void ray can delay creep spread. Cons: - low guaranteed damage with the oracle; - the oracle is very squishy so it's harder to scout with it; - the voidray comes late which means the zerg player will have free scout for a while unless you build a stalker. What do you guys think about these 2 Stargate starts? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
As you said, phoenixes are seriously terrible against lings, so in order to take a third you are essentially forced into going stargate/4gate/robo/colossus, which is fine, but as i said it's one of those catch all builds that's really passive and slightly behind vs everything. Also, i don't feel like already having phoenixes on the map is the biggest deal vs mutas. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but phoenixes build so fast that i'd rather have no phoenixes and 2stargates ready to build them (say, because of my scouting or 3base blink pressure), than one stargate and 5 phoenixes already up. Oracle>fast third openers on the other hand feel a lot more versatile, since you can easily transition into either colossus/blink, colossus/void ray or 3base blink off of them, so i personally prefer them. No matter what stargate units are used, i feel like at this stage you will never get consistent scouting info without hallucination, so worrying about that isn't a huge deal. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 11 2014 00:01 KingAlphard wrote: It's worth to discuss phoenixes vs. Oracle+ void ray. Phoenixes Pros: -Always deal some damage: drones, queens and overlords all over the map; -They have more HP combined than an oracle ; -they can help during engagements and lift hydralisks; -they can be useful against a mutalisk switch in the mid game if you keep them alive Cons: -they are pretty expensive (750/500 for 5 of them which is the standard) ; -they are useless against roaches, Corruptors and ling timings Oracle+Voidray Pros: -cheaper (400/300 total) which means you'll have a larger army/faster third/tech; -the oracle can easily deal with speedling pressures; -the void ray can snipe overlords and deal with roaches and corruptors which makes you overall safer; -if the zerg player is caught off guard you can kill a ton of drones at the same time; -the oracle can provide detection and revelation later on; -the void ray can delay creep spread. Cons: - low guaranteed damage with the oracle; - the oracle is very squishy so it's harder to scout with it; - the voidray comes late which means the zerg player will have free scout for a while unless you build a stalker. What do you guys think about these 2 Stargate starts? The best thing about oracle openers is that is versatility imo. I don't even care much for oracles, but getting 1-2 voidrays to clear overlords and defend your third is nice imo - of course cutting them altogether and taking an even faster third without a stargate is also great if there's no threat. I trust my macro and I've always prefered boosting my economy early on to harassment in PvZ. Nowadays, you have to rely on hallucinated phoenixes so much that I don't think having phoenixes matters much as opposed to just having a stargate available or hitting before mutas can do any damage. EDIT: Also, clearing creep tumors with voidrays is really old school (I've only seen HerO do that), requires a robo unless you use envision, kinda defeats the purpose to defending your third with voidrays, and you can't do that for too long because of hydras so you have to be extremely careful. Snipping the fourth base of zergs with voidrays + msc was great when I did that old sOs fast third + voidray build, but you still had to be careful against aggressive zergs since your gates were so late with that build. Moving out against some players was just pointless since they would just force you to recall and do even more damage than you while you attempted to snipe their hatchery. EDIT 2: According to Xinzoe here, pros were actually going up to 10 gates when going for a fast third + blink. Obviously you eventually go up to 10 gates even if you don't so right away, but the difference is still considerable. It sounds like a stylistic choice if anything or perhaps a slightly different game plan from what you're used to, Teoita. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
I think Stargate is the most difficult Protoss style to play. This is due to needing to control three elements, Base + Air + Ground, as opposed to only Base + Ground. The diversification of resources into the different elements also means that your macro has to be spot on, unless your choices coincides with the opponents and you score some major victories early on. However, being the most mechanically demanding build also means that learning it is crucial if you want to work towards becoming a versatile Protoss player. And very rewarding too, if you are able to do it. However, I think it might be naive to think of it as a 'better' build that will give you easy victories. I think it is exceptionally difficult given its strengths relative to a Stargate-less play. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
Plus from my experience going phoenix colossus usually prompts a fast 4th + swarmhost response which can't be punished and very frustrating to deal with. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Maestro85
Australia30 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 11 2014 09:09 Maestro85 wrote: I know it is only day 1 or 2 of the Dreampool maps but I got pasted in my first 4 games despite a decent win/loss ratio the previous season. I was looking for some tips on executing some of the current builds considering some naturals (and mains by air) are extremely exposed. This was more in relation to PvZ and PvT. My initial thoughts were better building placement at the natural v Z and better army positioning v T. Any advice (besides vetoing those maps) would be much appreciated. It's very hard to answer your question because it's too vague. Please, be a little more specific. | ||
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Maestro85
Australia30 Posts
It's very hard to answer your question because it's too vague. Please, be a little more specific. I guess I'm asking are blink builds on the maps with (seemingly) indefensible naturals viable in these match ups? I was attempting 2 base blink in both. So roughly 6-7 gates off of 2 base | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
I'm gonna start of with Xel Naga. Just broken against Z. No reason to try. | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
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pennywisdom
1 Post
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