EPTWhat's the "avenge build" any replays?
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 288
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
What's the "avenge build" any replays? | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
open 10gate 3gate one base allin saved gas by warping in zealots go DT off one gas win the game Basically the one base tasteless build, which is piss easy to scout and always has been but in my experience people are too shit to bother scouting while you 4gate them. | ||
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krjay
United States35 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On August 24 2014 08:43 krjay wrote: What are some transitions that people make out of FFE or gate expand > Oracle in PvZ? For example in the Redbull broadcast Hasu/Tod mentioned something about FFE > Stargate > fast third with a +1 timing to deny the zerg 4th. For some reason I've got an itch to incorporate this early Oracle but I'm unsure how to open, and how to transition. Build Order: Gateway Expand of any kind First 100 gas used on MSC Next 50 gas warpgate 150 gas on Stargate 100 gas -> sentry 150 gas -> oracle (make a voidray instead, if you don't see Zerg take a third) Take third at 6:00 -> 6:30 (if opponent opens speed then make your natural wall with forge + gateway before taking third) Start warping in at least 7 sentries before warping in stalkers. Research +1 attack, then +2 as soon as +1 finishes Take natural gases at 6:30 Twilight at 7:30 - 8:30, research blink go up to 10 gateways before 9:30 Hallucinate phoenix scout to make sure there is no spire. Attack at 10:00-ish blink + sentries to deny 4th. Use recall if u get bad engagement. When you move out, you should be getting a robo at home for colossus transition. With nonstop probe production you should have 3 base saturation around 9:00 This is pretty much what I see on Korean protoss streams these days | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On August 24 2014 09:07 Xinzoe wrote: Build Order: Gateway Expand of any kind First 100 gas used on MSC Next 50 gas warpgate 150 gas on Stargate 100 gas -> sentry 150 gas -> oracle (make a voidray instead, if you don't see Zerg take a third) Take third at 6:00 -> 6:30 (if opponent opens speed then make your natural wall with forge + gateway before taking third) Start warping in at least 7 sentries before warping in stalkers. Research +1 attack, then +2 as soon as +1 finishes Take natural gases at 6:30 Twilight at 7:30 - 8:30, research blink go up to 10 gateways before 9:30 Hallucinate phoenix scout to make sure there is no spire. Attack at 10:30 blink + sentries to deny 4th. Use recall if u get bad engagement. When you move out, you should be getting a robo at home for colossus transition. With nonstop probe production you should have 3 base saturation before 9:00 This is pretty much what I see on Korean protoss streams these days I don't think you can have 3 base saturation before 9 minutes, even if you don't take geysers 5 and 6. Not even a super greedy 3 base build - off of nexus first, to the point it's considered suicidal - can get 3 base saturation that early. When I was more active, my most reasonable - while still being greedy - benchmark was 3 base saturation with 6 geysers at 9:50 when I went nexus first, cut scouting altogether, and even got a second pylon before a forge. When you open gateway expand, you get less probes early on, so even if you take a third 30-60 seconds earlier, that just compensates for your less economical opener (and I don't mean in minerals, but rather in probe count). Maybe you can have 3 base saturation at 9:30 without geysers 5 and 6 with that build? But before 9:00, that's way too early. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
Here is 61 probes at 9:00 with 15 second supply block The opening was 13 gate (scout) -> 17 nexus. With 16 nexus 16 gate, I can get 66 probes at 9:00. http://i.imgur.com/eUKLwQo.jpg | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Do you take a third and gases 3 and 4 before your forge if you don't scout speed? I'm not sure how that lines up with speedling timings, but that must delay your cannon considerably, right? | ||
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Mantaza
Germany87 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
The gas geysers aren't that delayed. They get taken at 6:30ish. In the screenshot you see I have a couple of sentries, 1 oracle. I also had blink/+1 researching, and I still had 500 gas banked. Its not as greedy as most people think. The fact that you take your third so early means the Zerg has to make lings as early if he wants to cancel it. Then you get an explosion of stalkers/sentries to cancel Zerg's 4th. The delayed cannon isn't a problem either. You don't have to worry about speedlings against gasless 3 hatch opening. Zerg won't have speed until at least 8 minute. Plus if you see a handful of speedlings, you use oracle defensively, combined with MSC + zealot, your third nexus should never be cancelled. | ||
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Magnet
United States77 Posts
On August 23 2014 06:00 Teoita wrote: Nop it's something he did yesterday in code S. It's pretty much what i wrote: open 10gate 3gate one base allin saved gas by warping in zealots go DT off one gas win the game Basically the one base tasteless build, which is piss easy to scout and always has been but in my experience people are too shit to bother scouting while you 4gate them. Not to mention warping in only Zealots for about 3 minutes should be a little suspicious, haha. | ||
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misaya
Andorra2 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
On August 26 2014 01:01 Mozdk wrote: Where can I find a BO of the PvZ Oracle opening - > 3 base blink macro build? Really need new inspiration in PvZ. I am doing well compared to other matchups, but I am tired of doing all ins on 2/3 bases because I don't open phoenix that much anymore. Xinzoe posted it like 10 posts ago. You do need some decent game sense/scouting to not die to swarmhosts or fast mutas but it is pretty accurate. + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2014 09:07 Xinzoe wrote: Build Order: Gateway Expand of any kind First 100 gas used on MSC Next 50 gas warpgate 150 gas on Stargate 100 gas -> sentry 150 gas -> oracle (make a voidray instead, if you don't see Zerg take a third) Take third at 6:00 -> 6:30 (if opponent opens speed then make your natural wall with forge + gateway before taking third) Start warping in at least 7 sentries before warping in stalkers. Research +1 attack, then +2 as soon as +1 finishes Take natural gases at 6:30 Twilight at 7:30 - 8:30, research blink go up to 10 gateways before 9:30 Hallucinate phoenix scout to make sure there is no spire. Attack at 10:00-ish blink + sentries to deny 4th. Use recall if u get bad engagement. When you move out, you should be getting a robo at home for colossus transition. With nonstop probe production you should have 3 base saturation around 9:00 This is pretty much what I see on Korean protoss streams these days | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On August 26 2014 02:26 TokyoGirl wrote: Xinzoe posted it like 10 posts ago. You do need some decent game sense/scouting to not die to swarmhosts or fast mutas but it is pretty accurate. + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2014 09:07 Xinzoe wrote: Build Order: Gateway Expand of any kind First 100 gas used on MSC Next 50 gas warpgate 150 gas on Stargate 100 gas -> sentry 150 gas -> oracle (make a voidray instead, if you don't see Zerg take a third) Take third at 6:00 -> 6:30 (if opponent opens speed then make your natural wall with forge + gateway before taking third) Start warping in at least 7 sentries before warping in stalkers. Research +1 attack, then +2 as soon as +1 finishes Take natural gases at 6:30 Twilight at 7:30 - 8:30, research blink go up to 10 gateways before 9:30 Hallucinate phoenix scout to make sure there is no spire. Attack at 10:00-ish blink + sentries to deny 4th. Use recall if u get bad engagement. When you move out, you should be getting a robo at home for colossus transition. With nonstop probe production you should have 3 base saturation around 9:00 This is pretty much what I see on Korean protoss streams these days You say you need game sense. Well I am working on that, and since a build like this needs it, it will also help me get better at that. Thanks for the reply  | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol). Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play. Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting... | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
On August 26 2014 23:30 DinoMight wrote: Hi all, Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol). Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play. Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting... It would be great if you provide a replay of one of your own PvPs, so we can actually see what you are doing wrong. From your description i would say you have scouting problem, by either be that you do not scout good enaugh or simply reading scouting information wrong. good day, svizcy | ||
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On August 26 2014 23:30 DinoMight wrote: Hi all, Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol). Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play. Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting... It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds. That could be the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game. You will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick the one you enjoy the most, master it, and accept that maybe 1/4 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transitions. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 26 2014 23:56 Don Jimbo wrote: It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition. What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is. Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever. Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind. GRRRR | ||
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