EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 287
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On August 17 2014 06:14 Teoita wrote: Link to a vod? http://drop.sc/349013 Pretty old one. In this game, he attacks with 170 supply at 12:30, in one minute he could easily get that 30 supply. And my bad, he didn't make those 8 drones for his 4th base before the first push. Dunno, it's possible to do even for a diamond scrub like me. Maybe those 4 roaches/hydras would be really important to him. You can do it, though, if you follow this easy build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvp/zvp-hyuns-roach-hydra-viper-play/ | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2014 09:31 [PkF] Wire wrote: In case of very early hive, it's always good and not commital to immediately drop a templar archives and begin immortal production. You'll do well against the two most likely scenarios, ultras and vipers. Agreed, a hive that early limits the economy of the zerg a fair bit, and immortals are helpful against pretty much anything on the ground. | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
I'm a low- mid masters Protoss player on NA server. I mostly play standard robo builds in PvT with a few all-in here and there because I never found a style of stargate opening I like. I am a big fan of NonY and he was kind enough to send me a replay of a game he played while streaming so I could analyse it. To put it simply, I would like to know if you have experience playing this style of PvT to see if it is consistently viable in higher masters / grandmasters. One game of NonY doesn't clearly answer this question. Considering the replay, let's make a few assumptions about style: - It seems to use a Standard 1 Gate Fast Expand Opening ---> Stargate - It uses an early Oracle for scouting (NonY never probe scout in any matchup) then goes into Pheonix Production - It gets fast Templar archives for fast Archons/Chargelots (No Storm Research rush) - It transitions late game into Colossus Pros: - It allows for early harassement (Oracle) - It is quite good to prevent drop and preserve map control because of pheonixes - Terrans in general really hate chargelots  - A lot more interesting engagements then Deathballstyle (purely subjective) Cons: - Slightly worst than robo openings versus mine drops (IMO Observer > Oracle for burrowed/cloak vision) - Looks more fragile versus early push (Though with more replays I could've seen NonY's adaptation. I uploaded the replay on GGTracker: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5294634 So what do you guys think ? | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
On August 17 2014 06:33 Teoita wrote: Yeah that 4th is pretty much just a macro hatch. Still a fucking strong push though. As others have said there really isn't much to it other than feedback the vipers before they get their abducts off imo. I wasn't lucky enough to play against that build yet (Low-mid masters) but damn it looks powerful ! | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 18 2014 02:46 Universum wrote: Hi everyone, I'm a low- mid masters Protoss player on NA server. I mostly play standard robo builds in PvT with a few all-in here and there because I never found a style of stargate opening I like. I am a big fan of NonY and he was kind enough to send me a replay of a game he played while streaming so I could analyse it. To put it simply, I would like to know if you have experience playing this style of PvT to see if it is consistently viable in higher masters / grandmasters. One game of NonY doesn't clearly answer this question. Considering the replay, let's make a few assumptions about style: - It seems to use a Standard 1 Gate Fast Expand Opening ---> Stargate - It uses an early Oracle for scouting (NonY never probe scout in any matchup) then goes into Pheonix Production - It gets fast Templar archives for fast Archons/Chargelots (No Storm Research rush) - It transitions late game into Colossus Pros: - It allows for early harassement (Oracle) - It is quite good to prevent drop and preserve map control because of pheonixes - Terrans in general really hate chargelots - A lot more interesting engagements then Deathballstyle (purely subjective) Cons: - Slightly worst than robo openings versus mine drops (IMO Observer > Oracle for burrowed/cloak vision) - Looks more fragile versus early push (Though with more replays I could've seen NonY's adaptation. I uploaded the replay on GGTracker: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5294634 So what do you guys think ? I personally think every macro templar build is completely and utterly dead with the recent mine buffs, which is incredibly stupid and sad. You can do an allin off that oracle/templar opener; basically just do the same build Nony does but go with 7gates, 4 phoenixes, i dont remember how many archons and +2/charge after holding his medivac timing. I'm not sure wether that's viable still, Morrow thinks it is but other tosses i've talked to disagree with me so dunno. It's worth playing around with at least. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On August 17 2014 06:33 Teoita wrote: Yeah that 4th is pretty much just a macro hatch. Still a fucking strong push though. As others have said there really isn't much to it other than feedback the vipers before they get their abducts off imo. style on the zerg and build a prism to dodge the abducts | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote: Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down. It's very easy to tell if it's vipers or ultralisks by which units the zerg player builds before. Fast ultralisks get only upgraded lings, a lot of queens and maybe some infestors, while fast vipers get roaches and hydralisks. Immortals are definitely good vs everything, but they're not as good as colossi vs. roach/hydra. And immortals can be abducted just as well as colossi, so I would rather get more and more colossi. Also I would insist on the fact that the most important thing is micro. Your colossi/immortals get abducted, you lose the game. They don't get abducted and the vipers die, you win. Another thing that I didn't mention, if you have a couple of void rays you can use them to zone out the vipers. Not sure why but I like them more than blink stalkers in this situation. Partly because they fly, so they can always move above your army without getting stuck, partly because they can be hit only by hydras which stay behind, so they tend to survive more. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On August 18 2014 03:05 Teoita wrote: Sounds like he could just abduct the prism. yea, but wasting an abduct like that hurts when you viper rush for a timing and prism have an easier time to run away after being abducted but yeah, its somewhat unreliable and complicated | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
But in general, these days against zerg you never want to overcommit in countering a tech of the zerg player, because they abuse of tech switches all the time. So, maybe going double robo colossi is a bad choice. No one is going pure SH anyway... typically it's swarm hosts + corruptors for anti air. Colossi from 1 robo and void rays from 2 stargates might be a better choice. Void rays are the only reliable counter to corruptors in the midgame, blink stalkers are good only if you have a ton of them, but that's not what you want to do unless you are going for a timing attack. Now, having colossi and void rays instead of more colossi and no void rays is better vs. muta corruptors, because 1) you will have stargates ready to build phoenixes and start a fleet beacon and 2) you can win fights with phoenixes+void rays vs muta corruptors with good micro and positioning, while you can't with pure phoenixes. A good rule of thumb that I like to use, is if I don't see a hive morphing and I haven't confirmed that there's no mutalisk switch incoming, I just drop blindly a fleet beacon and more stargates. Basically, the only lair tech compositions that are good in the lategame are swarm hosts and muta/corruptors, so no hive means your opponent is using one (or both, in your case) of them. Regarding the vipers I would say they are not really effective in this situation, because 200 gas is 2 mutalisks or 2 corruptors, and phoenixes cost only 150/100 which is not that much for an abduct, plus they are likely to die since they are much slower than mutas. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Actually, they are probably going to stay close to the corruptors since they have the same speed so my point fails in that situation. Still, I don't think it's worth it to mix in vipers with muta/corruptor. When you see people doing it it's because they have vipers leftover from a previous roach/hydra/viper play. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On August 18 2014 05:44 Xinzoe wrote: I'm having a terrible time against muta/corruptor/viper/SH composition. The Zerg starts off going SH with a late third. I go oracle into fast third. I spot SH so I go up to double robo colossus immediately. The zerg stops at 15 or so SH and goes muta corrupter viper. I even killed the 4th/5th so many times but I can never engage. Also he uses vipers with his muta ball so I can never get a high phoenix count. Also Colossus/High Templar have terrible mobility and a smart zerg will just outmaneuver me. If I defend then Zerg takes bases.. If I attack then the zerg attacks me and forces a basetrade. how do i beat this? I'm so frustrated atm i'm about to do sangate everygame again... Besides any kind of harass, do a timing attack as soon as you have 4+colossus, 4+ht and mass stalkers. This should happen between 15-20min. It's the best and strongest timing you can hit before zerg has mass static defense and ideal composition. You can transition to air units after this timing. It's much more reasonable cus you will have 4+bases econ to support. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Playing a tournament and I may face a high Master Zerg who's just simply way better than me. Anyone have a good suggestion for a really coinflippy allin I can do in the hopes of MAYBE catching him off guard? He might go for something really arrogant like a 3 hatch before pool just because he knows he's way better than me. So there's that. Thanks | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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