• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:28
CEST 01:28
KST 08:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris34Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
BoxeR's Wings Episode 2 - Fan Translation Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time A Eulogy for the Six Pool Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away
Tourneys
$5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Post ASL20 Ro24 discussion. No Rain in ASL20? How do I speak directly to Coinbase?1-(888)-419-97 Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group D [ASL20] Ro24 Group E Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1021 users

The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 287

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 285 286 287 288 289 367 Next
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 16 2014 21:14 GMT
#5721
Link to a vod?
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Alchemik
Profile Joined March 2014
Poland7124 Posts
August 16 2014 21:29 GMT
#5722
On August 17 2014 06:14 Teoita wrote:
Link to a vod?

http://drop.sc/349013 Pretty old one. In this game, he attacks with 170 supply at 12:30, in one minute he could easily get that 30 supply. And my bad, he didn't make those 8 drones for his 4th base before the first push. Dunno, it's possible to do even for a diamond scrub like me. Maybe those 4 roaches/hydras would be really important to him.
You can do it, though, if you follow this easy build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvp/zvp-hyuns-roach-hydra-viper-play/
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 16 2014 21:33 GMT
#5723
Yeah that 4th is pretty much just a macro hatch. Still a fucking strong push though. As others have said there really isn't much to it other than feedback the vipers before they get their abducts off imo.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24203 Posts
August 17 2014 00:31 GMT
#5724
In case of very early hive, it's always good and not commital to immediately drop a templar archives and begin immortal production. You'll do well against the two most likely scenarios, ultras and vipers.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 17 2014 01:14 GMT
#5725
On August 17 2014 09:31 [PkF] Wire wrote:
In case of very early hive, it's always good and not commital to immediately drop a templar archives and begin immortal production. You'll do well against the two most likely scenarios, ultras and vipers.


Agreed, a hive that early limits the economy of the zerg a fair bit, and immortals are helpful against pretty much anything on the ground.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Universum
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada192 Posts
August 17 2014 17:46 GMT
#5726
Hi everyone,

I'm a low- mid masters Protoss player on NA server. I mostly play standard robo builds in PvT with a few all-in here and there because I never found a style of stargate opening I like. I am a big fan of NonY and he was kind enough to send me a replay of a game he played while streaming so I could analyse it. To put it simply, I would like to know if you have experience playing this style of PvT to see if it is consistently viable in higher masters / grandmasters. One game of NonY doesn't clearly answer this question.

Considering the replay, let's make a few assumptions about style:

- It seems to use a Standard 1 Gate Fast Expand Opening ---> Stargate
- It uses an early Oracle for scouting (NonY never probe scout in any matchup) then goes into Pheonix Production
- It gets fast Templar archives for fast Archons/Chargelots (No Storm Research rush)
- It transitions late game into Colossus

Pros:

- It allows for early harassement (Oracle)
- It is quite good to prevent drop and preserve map control because of pheonixes
- Terrans in general really hate chargelots
- A lot more interesting engagements then Deathballstyle (purely subjective)

Cons:

- Slightly worst than robo openings versus mine drops (IMO Observer > Oracle for burrowed/cloak vision)
- Looks more fragile versus early push (Though with more replays I could've seen NonY's adaptation.

I uploaded the replay on GGTracker:

http://ggtracker.com/matches/5294634

So what do you guys think ?
You often learn more from losing than winning. Don't rage, it's a game!
Universum
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada192 Posts
August 17 2014 17:47 GMT
#5727
On August 17 2014 06:33 Teoita wrote:
Yeah that 4th is pretty much just a macro hatch. Still a fucking strong push though. As others have said there really isn't much to it other than feedback the vipers before they get their abducts off imo.


I wasn't lucky enough to play against that build yet (Low-mid masters) but damn it looks powerful !
You often learn more from losing than winning. Don't rage, it's a game!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 17 2014 17:52 GMT
#5728
On August 18 2014 02:46 Universum wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'm a low- mid masters Protoss player on NA server. I mostly play standard robo builds in PvT with a few all-in here and there because I never found a style of stargate opening I like. I am a big fan of NonY and he was kind enough to send me a replay of a game he played while streaming so I could analyse it. To put it simply, I would like to know if you have experience playing this style of PvT to see if it is consistently viable in higher masters / grandmasters. One game of NonY doesn't clearly answer this question.

Considering the replay, let's make a few assumptions about style:

- It seems to use a Standard 1 Gate Fast Expand Opening ---> Stargate
- It uses an early Oracle for scouting (NonY never probe scout in any matchup) then goes into Pheonix Production
- It gets fast Templar archives for fast Archons/Chargelots (No Storm Research rush)
- It transitions late game into Colossus

Pros:

- It allows for early harassement (Oracle)
- It is quite good to prevent drop and preserve map control because of pheonixes
- Terrans in general really hate chargelots
- A lot more interesting engagements then Deathballstyle (purely subjective)

Cons:

- Slightly worst than robo openings versus mine drops (IMO Observer > Oracle for burrowed/cloak vision)
- Looks more fragile versus early push (Though with more replays I could've seen NonY's adaptation.

I uploaded the replay on GGTracker:

http://ggtracker.com/matches/5294634

So what do you guys think ?


I personally think every macro templar build is completely and utterly dead with the recent mine buffs, which is incredibly stupid and sad. You can do an allin off that oracle/templar opener; basically just do the same build Nony does but go with 7gates, 4 phoenixes, i dont remember how many archons and +2/charge after holding his medivac timing. I'm not sure wether that's viable still, Morrow thinks it is but other tosses i've talked to disagree with me so dunno. It's worth playing around with at least.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
August 17 2014 18:04 GMT
#5729
On August 17 2014 06:33 Teoita wrote:
Yeah that 4th is pretty much just a macro hatch. Still a fucking strong push though. As others have said there really isn't much to it other than feedback the vipers before they get their abducts off imo.

style on the zerg and build a prism to dodge the abducts
TL+ Member
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 17 2014 18:05 GMT
#5730
Sounds like he could just abduct the prism.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
August 17 2014 19:36 GMT
#5731
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.


It's very easy to tell if it's vipers or ultralisks by which units the zerg player builds before. Fast ultralisks get only upgraded lings, a lot of queens and maybe some infestors, while fast vipers get roaches and hydralisks.

Immortals are definitely good vs everything, but they're not as good as colossi vs. roach/hydra. And immortals can be abducted just as well as colossi, so I would rather get more and more colossi.

Also I would insist on the fact that the most important thing is micro. Your colossi/immortals get abducted, you lose the game. They don't get abducted and the vipers die, you win.

Another thing that I didn't mention, if you have a couple of void rays you can use them to zone out the vipers. Not sure why but I like them more than blink stalkers in this situation. Partly because they fly, so they can always move above your army without getting stuck, partly because they can be hit only by hydras which stay behind, so they tend to survive more.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
August 17 2014 19:39 GMT
#5732
On August 18 2014 03:05 Teoita wrote:
Sounds like he could just abduct the prism.

yea, but wasting an abduct like that hurts when you viper rush for a timing
and prism have an easier time to run away after being abducted

but yeah, its somewhat unreliable and complicated
TL+ Member
Xinzoe
Profile Joined January 2014
Korea (South)2373 Posts
August 17 2014 20:44 GMT
#5733
I'm having a terrible time against muta/corruptor/viper/SH composition. The Zerg starts off going SH with a late third. I go oracle into fast third. I spot SH so I go up to double robo colossus immediately. The zerg stops at 15 or so SH and goes muta corrupter viper. I even killed the 4th/5th so many times but I can never engage. Also he uses vipers with his muta ball so I can never get a high phoenix count. Also Colossus/High Templar have terrible mobility and a smart zerg will just outmaneuver me. If I defend then Zerg takes bases.. If I attack then the zerg attacks me and forces a basetrade. how do i beat this? I'm so frustrated atm i'm about to do sangate everygame again...
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
August 17 2014 22:54 GMT
#5734
If it's only 15 SH, in theory you could win with a colossus/stalker timing while the mutalisks switch is going on. If you have stargates you can also chronoboost phoenixes at home to prevent a basetrade.

But in general, these days against zerg you never want to overcommit in countering a tech of the zerg player, because they abuse of tech switches all the time. So, maybe going double robo colossi is a bad choice. No one is going pure SH anyway... typically it's swarm hosts + corruptors for anti air. Colossi from 1 robo and void rays from 2 stargates might be a better choice. Void rays are the only reliable counter to corruptors in the midgame, blink stalkers are good only if you have a ton of them, but that's not what you want to do unless you are going for a timing attack.
Now, having colossi and void rays instead of more colossi and no void rays is better vs. muta corruptors, because 1) you will have stargates ready to build phoenixes and start a fleet beacon and 2) you can win fights with phoenixes+void rays vs muta corruptors with good micro and positioning, while you can't with pure phoenixes.

A good rule of thumb that I like to use, is if I don't see a hive morphing and I haven't confirmed that there's no mutalisk switch incoming, I just drop blindly a fleet beacon and more stargates. Basically, the only lair tech compositions that are good in the lategame are swarm hosts and muta/corruptors, so no hive means your opponent is using one (or both, in your case) of them.

Regarding the vipers I would say they are not really effective in this situation, because 200 gas is 2 mutalisks or 2 corruptors, and phoenixes cost only 150/100 which is not that much for an abduct, plus they are likely to die since they are much slower than mutas.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
August 18 2014 10:20 GMT
#5735
Much slower ? They're about the same speed don't they ? :/
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-18 15:32:52
August 18 2014 15:31 GMT
#5736
It's the same as corruptors, 2.95, while mutalisks have 4.
Actually, they are probably going to stay close to the corruptors since they have the same speed so my point fails in that situation.
Still, I don't think it's worth it to mix in vipers with muta/corruptor. When you see people doing it it's because they have vipers leftover from a previous roach/hydra/viper play.
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
August 19 2014 04:48 GMT
#5737
On August 18 2014 05:44 Xinzoe wrote:
I'm having a terrible time against muta/corruptor/viper/SH composition. The Zerg starts off going SH with a late third. I go oracle into fast third. I spot SH so I go up to double robo colossus immediately. The zerg stops at 15 or so SH and goes muta corrupter viper. I even killed the 4th/5th so many times but I can never engage. Also he uses vipers with his muta ball so I can never get a high phoenix count. Also Colossus/High Templar have terrible mobility and a smart zerg will just outmaneuver me. If I defend then Zerg takes bases.. If I attack then the zerg attacks me and forces a basetrade. how do i beat this? I'm so frustrated atm i'm about to do sangate everygame again...

Besides any kind of harass, do a timing attack as soon as you have 4+colossus, 4+ht and mass stalkers. This should happen between 15-20min. It's the best and strongest timing you can hit before zerg has mass static defense and ideal composition. You can transition to air units after this timing. It's much more reasonable cus you will have 4+bases econ to support.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-22 16:38:18
August 22 2014 16:38 GMT
#5738
Hey all,

Playing a tournament and I may face a high Master Zerg who's just simply way better than me. Anyone have a good suggestion for a really coinflippy allin I can do in the hopes of MAYBE catching him off guard?

He might go for something really arrogant like a 3 hatch before pool just because he knows he's way better than me. So there's that.

Thanks
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
August 22 2014 16:41 GMT
#5739
--- Nuked ---
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 22 2014 16:42 GMT
#5740
Proxy 2gate, tasteless build, avenge build (3gate 10gate "allin", warp in 7ish stalkers then zealots, then go dt as you keep warping in zealots), sangate
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Prev 1 285 286 287 288 289 367 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech122
CosmosSc2 48
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 727
Aegong 65
Purpose 17
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm25
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K560
taco 437
Foxcn251
fl0m53
Other Games
summit1g7309
tarik_tv2769
Grubby2133
shahzam483
Day[9].tv391
Sick367
C9.Mang0293
ViBE203
ToD196
Mew2King42
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV26
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 54
• RyuSc2 52
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• iopq 0
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21854
League of Legends
• Doublelift3907
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur190
Other Games
• imaqtpie1047
• Day9tv391
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
32m
LiuLi Cup
11h 32m
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
16h 32m
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
Big Brain Bouts
16h 32m
Iba vs GgMaChine
TriGGeR vs Bunny
Reynor vs Classic
Serral vs Clem
BSL Team Wars
19h 32m
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
19h 32m
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
Code For Giants Cup
23h 2m
SC Evo League
1d 12h
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
1d 16h
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 18h
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
Acropolis #4 - TS1
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.