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Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol).
Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play.
Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting...
It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition.
What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is.
Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever.
Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind.
GRRRR
3 gate blink (robo) pressure/expand is probably the safest way to open if you just hate dealing with build order losses. It is used in the GSL by players like Stork, CJ herO, and Creator Prime.
I know you said stargate so my answer isn't exactly on point. I don't open stargate often so I don't know it as well. But I'm sure there is a way to open stargate safely too and someone here can help you.
Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol).
Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play.
Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting...
It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition.
What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is.
Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever.
Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind.
GRRRR
You won't lose to Dark Templar if you go for an early Stargate because you'll scout their Dark Shrine (with either your Oracle or Phoenix, whichever you make first) and you'll then have time to get an Oracle out for temporary detection until you have a Robotics Facility...
Thats also a build order loss if other player opens phoenix. Your oracle dies and you'll lose in phoenix vs phoenix war. Even if u dont lose the game you will be pinned to your base because phoenixes are out on the map. You lose entire map control with no blink, you can't do warp prism harass, eventually you'll lose.
If you go phoenix -> scout DT, then make an oracle for temporary detection and then robo -> obs, you've already used too much gas to counter what your opponent is doing that you aren't ahead. Even worse is when you go phoenix first and scout blink instead then you lose
What donjimbo suggested is probably the safest build. You also need to rule out possibilities of what your opponent is doing based on how much gas he has mined.
Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol).
Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play.
Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting...
It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition.
What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is.
Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever.
Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind.
GRRRR
You won't lose to Dark Templar if you go for an early Stargate because you'll scout their Dark Shrine (with either your Oracle or Phoenix, whichever you make first) and you'll then have time to get an Oracle out for temporary detection until you have a Robotics Facility...
Thats also a build order loss if other player opens phoenix. Your oracle dies and you'll lose in phoenix vs phoenix war. Even if u dont lose the game you will be pinned to your base because phoenixes are out on the map. You lose entire map control with no blink, you can't do warp prism harass, eventually you'll lose.
If you go phoenix -> scout DT, then make an oracle for temporary detection and then robo -> obs, you've already used too much gas to counter what your opponent is doing that you aren't ahead. Even worse is when you go phoenix first and scout blink instead then you lose
What donjimbo suggested is probably the safest build. You also need to rule out possibilities of what your opponent is doing based on how much gas he has mined.
What do you do when you're behind in Phoenixes? Say I open 2 gate then Star and he goes straight Star. He will always have 1-2 more Phoenix than me depending on chrono. I've never won one of these games.
Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol).
Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play.
Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting...
It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition.
What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is.
Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever.
Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind.
GRRRR
You won't lose to Dark Templar if you go for an early Stargate because you'll scout their Dark Shrine (with either your Oracle or Phoenix, whichever you make first) and you'll then have time to get an Oracle out for temporary detection until you have a Robotics Facility...
Thats also a build order loss if other player opens phoenix. Your oracle dies and you'll lose in phoenix vs phoenix war. Even if u dont lose the game you will be pinned to your base because phoenixes are out on the map. You lose entire map control with no blink, you can't do warp prism harass, eventually you'll lose.
If you go phoenix -> scout DT, then make an oracle for temporary detection and then robo -> obs, you've already used too much gas to counter what your opponent is doing that you aren't ahead. Even worse is when you go phoenix first and scout blink instead then you lose
What donjimbo suggested is probably the safest build. You also need to rule out possibilities of what your opponent is doing based on how much gas he has mined.
What do you do when you're behind in Phoenixes? Say I open 2 gate then Star and he goes straight Star. He will always have 1-2 more Phoenix than me depending on chrono. I've never won one of these games.
I would say either (A) don't open with two gates before stargate, or (B) do some gateway pressure to make up for your late stargate if you are determined to open with 2 gates. I think option A is better, but take your pick.
Getting my ass kicked in PvP lately. I have no idea what I'm doing; lost every single PvP I played yesterday except one where we both went DTs (lol).
Can anyone link to a couple of good worthy PvP played recently to learn from? The "best games" thread obviously has no PvP in it...I'm not looking for cool base races or stuff that's exciting from the players' point of view.. just sound solid play.
Basically my problem is that I feel like every single build I try gets blind hard countered. If I open Phoenix they gateway rush me. If I open DT or Blink they robo expand and hold. If I robo expand they go Phoenixes... without scouting...
It sounds like you are trying all sorts of different builds, and that is probably the problem. I think you just need to pick one opening and commit to learning all the variations you can do against different styles. Sometimes you will get the bad end of build orders, but it won't happen every game, and you will get better at learning how to make the most of those situations if you just get a lot of practice with it. Which style do you enjoy playing the most in PvP? The nice thing about the match up is that all tech routes can work. So pick one, master it, and accept that maybe 1/3 of the time you have to play from a little bit behind due to the nature of the matchup. I'm pretty sure build order counters are typically only a small advantage anyway as long as you scout and know the transition.
What's the best way to open Stargate, then, without automatically dying to the guy who goes blind SG before second Gateway and gets 1-2 Phoenixes ahead of you? I'm not willing to just say "fuck it, I'll lose to DTs" but seems everyone on ladder is.
Also, I don't think I've ever won a Phoenix vs. Phoenix game. Ever.
Been doing 3 gate Stargate allin vs. Robo expand and that seems to work out okay. But I guess my problem is unless I go 2 gates and include a sentry into my build, I just die to gateway rushes. But if I do that, then I die to blind SG first. And you can't really play Phoenixes from behind.
GRRRR
You won't lose to Dark Templar if you go for an early Stargate because you'll scout their Dark Shrine (with either your Oracle or Phoenix, whichever you make first) and you'll then have time to get an Oracle out for temporary detection until you have a Robotics Facility...
Thats also a build order loss if other player opens phoenix. Your oracle dies and you'll lose in phoenix vs phoenix war. Even if u dont lose the game you will be pinned to your base because phoenixes are out on the map. You lose entire map control with no blink, you can't do warp prism harass, eventually you'll lose.
If you go phoenix -> scout DT, then make an oracle for temporary detection and then robo -> obs, you've already used too much gas to counter what your opponent is doing that you aren't ahead. Even worse is when you go phoenix first and scout blink instead then you lose
What donjimbo suggested is probably the safest build. You also need to rule out possibilities of what your opponent is doing based on how much gas he has mined.
What do you do when you're behind in Phoenixes? Say I open 2 gate then Star and he goes straight Star. He will always have 1-2 more Phoenix than me depending on chrono. I've never won one of these games.
That's a build order disadvantage that's rather extreme. Your best bet is to play defensively: keep making phoenix, don't get aggressive, and start transitioning to archons and high templar after you've gotten to 3 bases safely.
Send MSC to opponents base on a path the won't be intercepted by a stalker. When stargate finishes, queue up a phoenix. MSC should arrive before phoenix finishes to identify whether you should cancel your phoenix for an oracle and/or robo.
Be active with your first stalker, if you spot a pylon then assume DTs even if your MSC doesn't see anything.
Assuming your scouting probe doesnt die carelessly, see if there is expansion at 5:30 - 6:00.
Send MSC to opponents base on a path the won't be intercepted by a stalker. When stargate finishes, queue up a phoenix. MSC should arrive before phoenix finishes to identify whether you should cancel your phoenix for an oracle and/or robo.
Be active with your first stalker, if you spot a pylon then assume DTs even if your MSC doesn't see anything.
Assuming your scouting probe doesnt die carelessly, see if there is expansion at 5:30 - 6:00.
This works for me on all 2/3 player maps.
How do you identify no 3 gate or proxy Oracle (at least proxied anywhere near your base). I usually get chased out when the Stalker finishes and 3 gate pressure drops the other 2 gateways after that. Most of the time I'll scout for a proxy pylon but I had a dude walk across the map with 8 Stalkers yesterday that I wasnt ready for at all.
4 gate is really obvious because it's always 1 gas and a lot of chrono saved up.
im not sure what u mean. you identify 3gate/proxy oracle the same way u identify 4gate. 2 gas with energy banked is usually proxy oracle or voidray, a faster cyber core with 1 gas with energy banked is 10 gate 3 gate
Usually I just go Stargate+ mothership core as soon as the core finishes. It's actually safer than it looks.
Against 10 gate into 3 gate you can still win, because when the oracle will reach his base he might not have many resources to warp in stalkers, so either he has 0 mining (which means he can't warp in stalkers) or he loses like 10 probes. Use photon overcharge to buy time until your additional gateways finish and then you can win because of the far superior eco, with the help of some probes.
Oh and it isn't that bad vs phoenixes, because it still takes some time for a phoenix to kill an oracle and it might be out of position too. If you want you can queue up a phoenix after the oracle and having that quick of a stargate you won't still be that behind in the phoenix count (if he also gets a very quick stargate you will scout it with your probe), or you can cancel it if there is no stargate. However that will delay a potential robo which is necessary against DTs.
Obviously you will get scouted very often, but you can always cancel the stargate and build a twilight council instead.
Anyway as mentioned above, there are coinflips everywhere. Each PvP opening is always a BO loss against some other opening.
I'm in plat or diamond, I think I'm about to be promoted... maybe. I main zerg, and am learning protoss.
I never see the pros do it, but almost every single pvp I've played in the last 2 weeks has been oracle into mass voids, or else robo into void/colossus. I can't beat it except by copying it. I really don't like to do it either, its a lame strategy.
Can somebody point me to a vod or the like where the non-void player wins? I could really use some tips here. I typically 1gate robo expand into immortals and then colossus, but depends on what they do too.
Hey guys, I have quite some trouble with PvP at the moment, I tend to open with Blink/MSC into robo in the match-up to be basicly safe against any early game shenanigan. But I faced a lot of protoss who will open with a fast expend build, I feel like if the fast expend is spotted let's say 1/4 done you will play from behind if you get your own expend, or you can try to pressure the expend to force a cancel. Everytime, I tend to pressure because it feel like it's the best way(at least Zest make it works but it's Zest so...) but it tend to fail really quickly because the expend will finish before blink which means photon overcharge plus immortal. So how should you react to a fast expend if you open with the defensive blink into robo ?
Do not overmake stalkers (get like, 8-10ish imo) and use them for harassment rather than straight up attacks. A group of 4 will oneshot a probe, and on many maps you can do enough damage with them to equalize your economy. Meanwhile, DO NOT cut probes. Expand as soon as you can.
If he isn't going blink himself and not getting a high stalker count, you can also chronoboost out 2 immortals and go for immortal drops to do some more harassment.
On August 28 2014 18:53 CutTheEnemy wrote: I'm in plat or diamond, I think I'm about to be promoted... maybe. I main zerg, and am learning protoss.
I never see the pros do it, but almost every single pvp I've played in the last 2 weeks has been oracle into mass voids, or else robo into void/colossus. I can't beat it except by copying it. I really don't like to do it either, its a lame strategy.
Can somebody point me to a vod or the like where the non-void player wins? I could really use some tips here. I typically 1gate robo expand into immortals and then colossus, but depends on what they do too.
The general approach to Void Ray based builds has been to get storms, expand aggressively, mass gateways and then leverage ground upgrades against their generally underupgraded air. The idea is reach your "ideal" tech setup of having 3-3, charge, blink, storm, 20-some gateways, before he is able to reach his 'ideal' situation. Then you're able to trade and tax his economy while expanding yourself, starving his resources.
In combat, if possible you should kite and storm. If you're in a superior position, he'll most likely back into a corner and then you can just surround and storm him. Make sure to constantly warp in units in fights. Sometimes he wins with a few void rays left and then you can just warp in 20 stalkers and clean up.
Something new might have come up, but this was how it was done from the time of WoL.
On August 28 2014 21:37 TheJames wrote: Hey guys, I have quite some trouble with PvP at the moment, I tend to open with Blink/MSC into robo in the match-up to be basicly safe against any early game shenanigan. But I faced a lot of protoss who will open with a fast expend build, I feel like if the fast expend is spotted let's say 1/4 done you will play from behind if you get your own expend, or you can try to pressure the expend to force a cancel. Everytime, I tend to pressure because it feel like it's the best way(at least Zest make it works but it's Zest so...) but it tend to fail really quickly because the expend will finish before blink which means photon overcharge plus immortal. So how should you react to a fast expend if you open with the defensive blink into robo ?
Those types of builds can scout very regularly around the time when the expansion should come down. Open up with 3 stalkers and walk them across the map. Being behind by a bit in PvP in expansion timings really isn't particularly game breaking, and there's always room later in the game to trade your Stalkers out for probes in order to even up the count or get ahead. They are pretty useless as the game goes on anyway.
i have a couple of question, i was Protoss back on WOL... yeah i know this is a Protoss thread...
Back on Wol Zerg use to do Banneling drops on protoss gateway armys... isnt this effective anymore?
Like this
Also what happend to this guy Spanishiwa demonstrates his absolutely no gas forever style of zerg play! :D this style desappeared. it was very good for big maps
another games from spanishiwa
and what happends that zerg doesnt do mass muta vs protoss anymore?
what are the counterrs to this builds from zerg? im asking because i dont know the meta game that much anymore.
Regarding bane drops, there's several more effective styles to PvZ that all center around lair tech, so it's basically not done anymore.
Regarding mass muta, it's still a strong mid/lategame option with corruptor support. The correct response to this style is mass mass pheonix with range; storm/blink isn't effective because mutas just regen any damage they take from them.
On August 31 2014 23:52 Teoita wrote: Regarding bane drops, there's several more effective styles to PvZ that all center around lair tech, so it's basically not done anymore.
Regarding mass muta, it's still a strong mid/lategame option with corruptor support. The correct response to this style is mass mass pheonix with range; storm/blink isn't effective because mutas just regen any damage they take from them.
Also because of mobility: phoenix are faster than mutas and can keep up to defend your bases, and hunt them down when they flee to punish bad attacks. Stalkers aren't quick enough, so you wind up having to split your stalker balls. When you split them, the mtuas just dive in, eat a tick or two of storms, kill a few stalkers, and dive out having lost nothing, because the force there isn't strong enough to actually kill mutas quickly. If stalkers were a lot faster then it would be okay because you wouldn't have to split your stalkers.
The other problem is unit density: stalkers are a lot bigger and thus push each other out quite a bit, wheras mutas clump up very well into a tight ball. The mutas DPS is thus concentrated in a smaller area meaning that all the mutas can fight, whereas often not all the stalkers can shoot, especially since building walls, which are necessary to defend against zerglings, hinder your own stalkers.
So yes, as Teoita said, phoenix are your only real option. Stalker/archon/storm etc. can buy you time to get phoenix out, but you must get phoenix or base trade.
Any opinions on the build MC did vs Flash on overgrowth? he went stalker/immortal into charge/templar and a third and managed to defend vs the bio/mine attack reasonably well (lost main nexus but not more). viable or just a one time thing?
EPT
