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On September 01 2014 03:32 Paljas wrote:
Any opinions on the build MC did vs Flash on overgrowth?
he went stalker/immortal into charge/templar and a third and managed to defend vs the bio/mine attack reasonably well (lost main nexus but not more). viable or just a one time thing?
Blink stalkers help you deal with widow mines, so it might actually be a more reasonable way to go templar first nowadays imho. Of course, they are also great against drops. If you get blink very fast, it probably doesn't even delay charge much. I mean, herO and Zest were going 7 min twilight + robo bay all the time until a couple of few weeks ago, so you could do the same in order to get blink asap (obviously without the robo bay). Since you're not getting a robo bay, you could get a forge before or after the gates without a problem. What is more important, in my opinion, is to build your twilight council before gates 2 and 3 so that you can have blink by 10:30 or so.
There's also that build PartinG has been doing in PvT all the time, which is twilight before robo... I can't say much about that though. It feels like you either get a mental edge over an opponent who goes over defensive, or end up delaying detection and observer scouting for a hyper fast blink. That helps you poke and whatnot, but I'm not sure how much I like that build to be honest. Anyway, that's just one more possibility - one more build to use as a template for blink into templar if that's what you want to do.
That being said, people have become too obsessed with the idea that widow mines have killed templar first builds imo, when I think that's not even an issue depending on your level of play or opponent. There are players that have never tried going widow mines in the mid game in PvT and therefore may not feel comfortable doing so. Some of these players may not even be willing to add widow mines to their composition in the first place.
Honestly, people worry way too much about what's "viable". At the end of Wol, I did a lot of 4 gate prism in PvT and beat almost every single terran that happened to go 1 rax cc. I was a top diamond protoss and I'm talking about 95% win rate or something ridiculous like that vs 1 rax cc. I even beat master league players with it a few times. Then I somehow ended up playing Major once, who obviously wrecked me. When I asked him, he said the build was easy to hold off in his opinion. Does that mean it wasn't "viable"? Hell, I couldn't care less about the viability of that build against a top notch terran like Major, because that wouldn't have changed my overall win rate with it at that time. What I'm trying to say is, you can make a lot of things work if you really want to... which is not to say you should ignore the effectiveness of strategies or think everything is viable, but that it's important to keep your mind open. I love when people say certain builds are not viable and then high level players end up losing to them anyway.
EDIT: ToD is kicking some ass in PvT on his stream now with storm first, np... :D
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On September 01 2014 09:41 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2014 03:32 Paljas wrote:
Any opinions on the build MC did vs Flash on overgrowth?
he went stalker/immortal into charge/templar and a third and managed to defend vs the bio/mine attack reasonably well (lost main nexus but not more). viable or just a one time thing? Blink stalkers help you deal with widow mines, so it might actually be a more reasonable way to go templar first nowadays imho. Of course, they are also great against drops. If you get blink very fast, it probably doesn't even delay charge much. I mean, herO and Zest were going 7 min twilight + robo bay all the time until a couple of few weeks ago, so you could do the same in order to get blink asap (obviously without the robo bay). Since you're not getting a robo bay, you could get a forge before or after the gates without a problem. What is more important, in my opinion, is to build your twilight council before gates 2 and 3 so that you can have blink by 10:30 or so. There's also that build PartinG has been doing in PvT all the time, which is twilight before robo... I can't say much about that though. It feels like you either get a mental edge over an opponent who goes over defensive, or end up delaying detection and observer scouting for a hyper fast blink. That helps you poke and whatnot, but I'm not sure how much I like that build to be honest. Anyway, that's just one more possibility - one more build to use as a template for blink into templar if that's what you want to do. That being said, people have become too obsessed with the idea that widow mines have killed templar first builds imo, when I think that's not even an issue depending on your level of play or opponent. There are players that have never tried going widow mines in the mid game in PvT and therefore may not feel comfortable doing so. Some of these players may not even be willing to add widow mines to their composition in the first place. Honestly, people worry way too much about what's "viable". At the end of Wol, I did a lot of 4 gate prism in PvT and beat almost every single terran that happened to go 1 rax cc. I was a top diamond protoss and I'm talking about 95% win rate or something ridiculous like that vs 1 rax cc. I even beat master league players with it a few times. Then I somehow ended up playing Major once, who obviously wrecked me. When I asked him, he said the build was easy to hold off in his opinion. Does that mean it wasn't "viable"? Hell, I couldn't care less about the viability of that build against a top notch terran like Major, because that wouldn't have changed my overall win rate with it at that time. What I'm trying to say is, you can make a lot of things work if you really want to... which is not to say you should ignore the effectiveness of strategies or think everything is viable, but that it's important to keep your mind open. I love when people say certain builds are not viable and then high level players end up losing to them anyway. EDIT: ToD is kicking some ass in PvT on his stream now with storm first, np... :D
well theres a sort of catch 22 with "viable" and thats the metagame. on ladder the meta is a lot more variable so harder to predict builds are a lot stronger, plus the fact that lots of people just like to do the same build every game and try to make it work/are practicing one style at a particular time, etc. etc. if everyone expects 4gate every game its not viable, if youre in the modern meta and your micro is better and you catch them off guard then sure why not
tldr if u play in tournaments or want to raise your game to the higher levels then viable is a bigger concern, if youre just laddering for fun then it literally doesnt matter in the slightest
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On September 01 2014 03:32 Paljas wrote:
Any opinions on the build MC did vs Flash on overgrowth?
he went stalker/immortal into charge/templar and a third and managed to defend vs the bio/mine attack reasonably well (lost main nexus but not more). viable or just a one time thing?
I maintain that it is viable but I know I am in the minority. I still use Storm openers after Oracle all the time on ladder and haven't experienced any change in winrate (if anything it has gotten better because people aren't used to it).
My philosophy from the start had been holding my position with Storm and dealing with multiple prongs in advance, whether through scouting, spotting, whatever. As long as you maintain the position against the mines and systematically eliminate them with Blink or Immortals, there's really no difference. Mine builds have been good since the beginning of HoTS and the execution hasn't changed at all. Back then if you a-moved into a mine field you would get terrible trades. Same goes for now, except the trades are even more terrible. The bottom line is don't a-move into a minefield or you'll lose. I don't see why that's so hard to do.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm still really skepctical on storm openers (and if im skepctical that says something, i was a fan of them during the hellbat day slol) because as i wrote in the templar guide thread:
On September 01 2014 19:31 Teoita wrote:
Even if (as is likely) you could still do this by microing individual zealots, triggering charge at the right time etc etc...what's the point of doing that when you can just amove stalker/colossus instead, having the same strength in your midgame army for a fraction of the effort?
Imo with the current mine, templar isn't viable not because mines will always kill it (they may not if you play perfectly), but because executing perfectly vs mines is so much harder than just going colossus first, it's not worth trying. With colossus styles evolving to hold scv pulls more effectively and blink/warp prism openings being common, a lot of the pros of this style (more map presence and harassment potential, more safety vs scv pulls, better builds that can afford a solid observer network) are being incorporated into colossus builds for a fraction of the effort.
The problem isn't amoving in a minefield. The problem is that the mines drammatically change the way bio vs storm works (pre-ghost). Before, it used to be that the bio would have serious trouble pushing into your forces because they would expose themselves to storm. Once you landed 1-2 good storms, you could just attack with your zealot/archon and finish off his weakened army.
With good mine placement however the Terran can just send small groups of units (small enough that storming them isn't efficient) and pick off a few of your gateway units at a time. If you try to attack into them the mines clear off your zealots and you die, if you do not attack into them they can keep killing stuff until they have enough units to just finish off the game in a big attack, without caring about being stormed, because your stuff isn't enough to clear off the bio even if you do land perfect storms.
You might be able to still open storm on bigass maps where 4m parade pushes like this are less effective, but i don't think it's viable as a standard opener anymore. Blink>charge>storm might fare a little better (and isn't a new build at all, MC has been doing it for an extremely long time), but it has other drawbacks, namely that it's EXTREMELY fragile. Your storm is very, very delayed and for a really long time you rely exclusively on gateway units, so securing a third is really problematic unless you manage to somehow be ahead already. It's also very easy to be behind in upgrades, since on 2bases you can't really afford double forge/storm/charge/blink and a good stalker count.
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Why would storm be delayed for so long much? That's only a gas management issue. If you take your 2 geysers at 6 minutes, you can do the 7 minute twilight + robo bay style and even go double forge. That means you can build a templar archives at the 8 minute mark or even earlier if you adjust, and still have blink by 10:30 or so. That means you could also have storm by 10:40 or even earlier if you chrono boost it. If you go gate robo forge and delay your geysers for too long though, it obviously won't be as gas efficient, but that's a very different thing.
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MC definitely didn't do that on Overgrowth. As a matter of fact, he used his stalkers exclusively for defense in the mid game, took a late third passively (13:30), and won the game without "getting stomped". 
My point is, you can do all that less conservatively than MC did. MC is generally a solid player when it comes to timings, but his macro builds aren't exactly what you'd call sharp or tight.
EDIT: Just attemped to do this and you can definitely get blink by precisely 10:00 if you chrono boost it while still getting storm by 10:40. Of course, you can't get many stalkers or templars at this point if you also get immortals, but if you play reactively with observers like I do - 4 observers total -, you can adapt and get what you most need at the moment based on the information your map vision provides you with.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 02 2014 02:13 vhapter wrote:
Why would storm be delayed for so long much? That's only a gas management issue. If you take your 2 geysers at 6 minutes, you can do the 7 minute twilight + robo bay style and even go double forge. That means you can build a templar archives at the 8 minute mark or even earlier if you adjust, and still have blink by 10:30 or so. That means you could also have storm by 10:40 or even earlier if you chrono boost it. If you go gate robo forge and delay your geysers for too long though, it obviously won't be as gas efficient, but that's a very different thing.
If you rush storm like that you can't have both high templar and a good number of blink stalkers along with decent upgrades, a couple of sentries, and good observer coverage. Either one, some of your investments do not make sense that early on (either storm or blink), and it makes more sense to delay them. You don't even need to rush storm to hold medivac timings anyway.
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On September 02 2014 02:53 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 02:13 vhapter wrote:
Why would storm be delayed for so long much? That's only a gas management issue. If you take your 2 geysers at 6 minutes, you can do the 7 minute twilight + robo bay style and even go double forge. That means you can build a templar archives at the 8 minute mark or even earlier if you adjust, and still have blink by 10:30 or so. That means you could also have storm by 10:40 or even earlier if you chrono boost it. If you go gate robo forge and delay your geysers for too long though, it obviously won't be as gas efficient, but that's a very different thing.
If you rush storm like that you can't have both high templar and a good number of blink stalkers along with decent upgrades, a couple of sentries, and good observer coverage. Either one, some of your investments do not make sense that early on (either storm or blink), and it makes more sense to delay them. You don't even need to rush storm to hold medivac timings anyway.
You can deflect early drops with just 6 stalkers more easily if you already have blink. But you don't have to leave 6 stalkers there permanently waiting for drops as long as you have good map vision. That means you can take advantage of blink to (a) deflect drops or (b) deal with widow mines if you DO need a few stalkers at 10:00, so here you will delay high templar until 10:30-10:40+. If you think there's no need to have another 3 stalkers at this point based on information - i.e. you see the terran isn't dropping right away and has no widow mines -, you can use your gas more efficiently and make a couple of high templars instead.
In my opinion that makes sense because it's adaptable. Most players have been getting 3 stalkers off of 1 gate and teching behind it for a very long time, so once you have blink you just need 3 more stalkers. If you want go crazy gateway power (!!) with a lot of blink stalkers and a handful of sentries though, then fast storm is obviously not a good idea. This depends a lot on what you want to accomplish - you can discourage drops with just 6 stalkers at the 10 minute mark, but you may want more if you're an opportunistic player, so in that case you'll probably want to have 12 stalkers asap to 1-shot medivacs.
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i've been doing the soft 3 gate blink pressure into robo that Zest did vs Yoda. I make 9 stalkers to pressure and a warp prism to harass, and transition into templar instead of colossus with delayed upgrades. Storm finishes when medivac push comes and charge finishes when PO is over. Its been working out pretty good, but im not sure if its just Terrans that didnt know how to react.
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I am really in a bad spot vs Zerg on big maps, mainly Deadwing. I either get out-macroed or my timing attack gets squashed and I'm so far behind....
What builds or playstyles have the most success on big maps vs Zergs?
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On September 02 2014 10:59 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
I am really in a bad spot vs Zerg on big maps, mainly Deadwing. I either get out-macroed or my timing attack gets squashed and I'm so far behind....
What builds or playstyles have the most success on big maps vs Zergs?
You should be thinking about taking faster 3rd bases considering every Zerg attack timing is weaker due to rally distance. You can typically get away with builds that cut more corners because you have that big buffer zone. You just need to find a composition you are comfortable with and know the later-game transitions against things like Mutalisks, Ultras, Swarm Hosts, etc.
Besides that, your question is a bit vague so it's hard to say why you'd be losing on bigger maps other than expanding slowly or not managing your attacks optimally.
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anyone has the build of blink all in rain did yesterday in gsl?
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Italy12246 Posts
It looked simple enough to replicate tbh. Also, please do not just ask for a BO in this thread.
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Greetings!
I am getting back into SC2 after my visit to Gamescom (man, these koreans are small... to be fair though, everyone is compared to my 2,03m ^^)
Anyways, no that my old PVT-Build Oracle into Chargelot/Storm is dead, I was looking for a more timely one.
Watched through the IEM Toronto Replay pack and stumbled upon Zest's Blink before Robo and OH BOY, is that build good!
Unfortunately, beside the games against Yoda, I found very little footage. Was checking some of his PvTs but did found just "early developments" of his IEM build.
Question is, are there any condensed information about Blink before Robo? While reading TL it appears that this build is appearing for some time now, or are they referring to the phase of blink-allins?
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United States4883 Posts
On September 08 2014 00:23 Xanatoss wrote:
Greetings!
I am getting back into SC2 after my visit to Gamescom (man, these koreans are small... to be fair though, everyone is compared to my 2,03m ^^)
Anyways, no that my old PVT-Build Oracle into Chargelot/Storm is dead, I was looking for a more timely one.
Watched through the IEM Toronto Replay pack and stumbled upon Zest's Blink before Robo and OH BOY, is that build good!
Unfortunately, beside the games against Yoda, I found very little footage. Was checking some of his PvTs but did found just "early developments" of his IEM build.
Question is, are there any condensed information about Blink before Robo? While reading TL it appears that this build is appearing for some time now, or are they referring to the phase of blink-allins?
That's PartinG's build that he started using in PL, so look there for the build (search "esportstv" on Youtube). The build is basically 3-gate blink to pressure into a warp prism and a fast 3rd (~9:00) and straight into colossus. I'm not ENTIRELY sure how the build works, but PartinG seems to use it efficiently in most games, and it's caught on to some other players like Zest as well, so I guess it must be viable.
Teoita said he was thinking about writing a guide on it soon, so we might have a more condensed packet of information for you in the future  .
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On September 08 2014 00:23 Xanatoss wrote:
Greetings!
I am getting back into SC2 after my visit to Gamescom (man, these koreans are small... to be fair though, everyone is compared to my 2,03m ^^)
Anyways, no that my old PVT-Build Oracle into Chargelot/Storm is dead, I was looking for a more timely one.
Watched through the IEM Toronto Replay pack and stumbled upon Zest's Blink before Robo and OH BOY, is that build good!
Unfortunately, beside the games against Yoda, I found very little footage. Was checking some of his PvTs but did found just "early developments" of his IEM build.
Question is, are there any condensed information about Blink before Robo? While reading TL it appears that this build is appearing for some time now, or are they referring to the phase of blink-allins?
I'm using this build exclusively in PvT now and its beast. Basically you go 3 gate blink pressure to pick off SCVs that are repairing bunkers while you use warp prism to harass main. It pins Terran to his base while you take a third and you will have 2 colossus almost complete when the medivac push comes. You can use this build against almost any opening the Terran goes for on any map and it leaves you the possibility to counter attack after a defended mine/hellion drop.
Edit: lol totally didnt see what john said
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On September 05 2014 23:43 Teoita wrote:
It looked simple enough to replicate tbh. Also, please do not just ask for a BO in this thread.
where can I ask it then? I haven't seen it live.
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Awesome, thanks!
Quick overwiew
1 Gate expo opener (5 chrono on nexus including msc) with canceled Z , scout after gate, returns home after quick check (3/4 player maps?) Warpgate lowest priority, get it after everything else, Building Placement to zone reaper
Council with next 100 Gas, can be delayed for some seconds (afaik) because will be slower than 2nd warpin anyways
2nd stalker
Chrono both nexi as nat finishes
Start Blink (boost)
Small probe cut to add 2 gates synched with warpgate
Robo
First Warpin 3 Stalker (mine drops would happen around now, after that move out)
Boosted Obs
Add Gas 3&4 (stop probes at 44)
Boosted Prism, Robo bay (not sure, may vary), more obs afterwards
2nd Warpin 3 Stalker (from proxy pylon built with stalker escort)
pressure front
3rd warpin 3 zealots @prism, drop main while pressuring front
Start Collossus (boost) & Range, get 3 total, almost synchs with range if boosted constantly
4th warpin either 3 sentries or more stalker if your pressure is able to break him
3rd base, resume probes
Forge, 3more gates
@ ~60 probes add Gas 5&6
Archive, 4 more gates, maybe 2nd forge for +1/+3
2 main counter attack timings:
1st with blink and prism if able to kill his first push/drop
2nd with 3 colossi & +1 armor after deflecting/killing his medivac timing
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 08 2014 02:15 Extenz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2014 23:43 Teoita wrote:
It looked simple enough to replicate tbh. Also, please do not just ask for a BO in this thread. where can I ask it then? I haven't seen it live.
Tbh your best bet is just to study the vod at least a bit and open a [D] thread. Frankly, this forum is for discussin things, not for asking things that you can't be bothered to find yourself. Besides, frankly, you are good enough to copy a bo from a vod on your own.
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EPT
