EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 292
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 10 2014 18:03 Teoita wrote: I'm writing a guide on the macro-style blink before robo builds that Parting and others are using. It'll be done soon (tm). It seems like that style should outright die to GG Mines. It lacks detection for at least a minute or more after medvac mine drops are possible. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On September 10 2014 21:31 Salient wrote: It seems like that style should outright die to GG Mines. It lacks detection for at least a minute or more after medvac mine drops are possible. 1 base medivac drops you mean, which you should scout. Zest vs Yoda from IEM Toronto (King Sejong) showed that Zest even had detection in time to deal with an unscouted proxy mine drop (after reaper expand) with that build. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
In most cases (at least in all my games) you get a complete scout off on what's going on because the probe slips in right as the first reactor is building and there are no units to stop it. You can be even more annoying and force an SCV to be pulled by harassing the one building the CC or additional rax/factory. You see pros do this all the time. Worst case scenario you may have to MSC scout and try to fend off the reaper with good sim city + a stalker (or be fine with them scouting your tech) -> or you open robo if you don't wanna do that. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 10 2014 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote: 1 base medivac drops you mean, which you should scout. Zest vs Yoda from IEM Toronto (King Sejong) showed that Zest even had detection in time to deal with an unscouted proxy mine drop (after reaper expand) with that build. Zest got pretty lucky in that game. If the medvac had come in from a different angle or his stalkers had been in a slightly different position, then he would have a mine or two burrowed in his main mineral line for a minute or more. He dodged the bullet by being awesome and lucky. But the thing is that it didn't set Yoda behind much due to the low cost and high reward of mine dropping 75 mineral 25 gas units. It's like an HT drop except without the high risk. Personally, I think Harstem is playing the best PvT style now. I will be interested to see if Rain plays in a similar way (Rain really invented the style Harstem uses). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 10 2014 21:31 Salient wrote: It seems like that style should outright die to GG Mines. It lacks detection for at least a minute or more after medvac mine drops are possible. Depends on the build. Going gates before robo is slightly unsafe vs hardcore one base builds (say, gas first, or builds that skip reaper), but twilight>robo>gates is actually perfectly safe, as it can have an obs out at roughly 7:20ish. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On September 10 2014 22:11 Teoita wrote: Depends on the build. Going gates before robo is slightly unsafe vs hardcore one base builds (say, gas first, or builds that skip reaper), but twilight>robo>gates is actually perfectly safe, as it can have an obs out at roughly 7:20ish. also i feel like that at a certain skill level, you are able to negate mines entirely with blink stalkers, rendering them not useless but ineffective in an engagement. Same goes for the attempted mine drop, the mobility of the stalkers should allow for either the medivac or the mines to be sniped before burrowing - or you can use blink micro to trigger them. There is a big difference between mine drops at Zest niveau and mine drops at mid masters. The former looses nothing but 2 blink cooldows and 5 seconds mining, the latter may loose 2 stalkers and 20 seconds mining or possibly 12 probes +. | ||
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On September 11 2014 06:14 Mojito99 wrote: also i feel like that at a certain skill level, you are able to negate mines entirely with blink stalkers, rendering them not useless but ineffective in an engagement. Same goes for the attempted mine drop, the mobility of the stalkers should allow for either the medivac or the mines to be sniped before burrowing - or you can use blink micro to trigger them. There is a big difference between mine drops at Zest niveau and mine drops at mid masters. The former looses nothing but 2 blink cooldows and 5 seconds mining, the latter may loose 2 stalkers and 20 seconds mining or possibly 12 probes +. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/lichter/BestGames2014/monthly/august/cure_vs_zest.jpg) User was warned for this post | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 10 2014 22:11 Teoita wrote: Depends on the build. Going gates before robo is slightly unsafe vs hardcore one base builds (say, gas first, or builds that skip reaper), but twilight>robo>gates is actually perfectly safe, as it can have an obs out at roughly 7:20ish. but don't you think doing twilight > robo > gates, ruins the point of this build? its designed to keep terran defensive while you take a fast third. If I'm not going to stalker pressure then i dont bother making a twilight, and go straight robo. and i have no trouble defending 15 gas or even gas first widow mine drops, at most I'll lose 2 probes to each widow mine with god map awareness. If I suspect a proxy factory then once again I don't bother making a twilight, straight robo is better for me. and I don't think obs comes out at 7:20, Zest makes his robo at 6:30 in most of his games its more like 8:00-ish with chronoboost, unless he delays gateways for whatever reason. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 11 2014 06:36 Xinzoe wrote: but don't you think doing twilight > robo > gates, ruins the point of this build? its designed to keep terran defensive while you take a fast third. If I'm not going to stalker pressure then i dont bother making a twilight, and go straight robo. and i have no trouble defending 15 gas or even gas first widow mine drops, at most I'll lose 2 probes to each widow mine with god map awareness. If I suspect a proxy factory then once again I don't bother making a twilight, straight robo is better for me. and I don't think obs comes out at 7:20, Zest makes his robo at 6:30 in most of his games its more like 8:00-ish with chronoboost, unless he delays gateways for whatever reason. Not at all. 3 gates are enough to keep map control even if you go robo first, and the faster robo gives you faster warp prism, observers and colossus. I agree that vs proxy fact and maybe gas first you may want to just go straight robo though. Seriously if you analyze Parting's build, it's a fucking thing of beauty. It's way, way more refined than Zest's. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 11 2014 06:36 Xinzoe wrote: but don't you think doing twilight > robo > gates, ruins the point of this build? its designed to keep terran defensive while you take a fast third. If I'm not going to stalker pressure then i dont bother making a twilight, and go straight robo. and i have no trouble defending 15 gas or even gas first widow mine drops, at most I'll lose 2 probes to each widow mine with god map awareness. If I suspect a proxy factory then once again I don't bother making a twilight, straight robo is better for me. and I don't think obs comes out at 7:20, Zest makes his robo at 6:30 in most of his games its more like 8:00-ish with chronoboost, unless he delays gateways for whatever reason. I don't think the robo timing changes much with this build to be honest. Parting and Zest seem to start it at about 6:30-6:50 or so (Parting coulda started his robo even earlier against Flash... at about 6:15-6:20). Parting got his robo first in the games that I watched and Zest did the opposite, but Parting also went +2 gates before his robo vs Flash. With a faster robo, you get a warp prism earlier, which is also good. Since you will already have a handful of stalkers, once your gateways finish you can warp in a round of stalkers and do small pokes to take down the bunker or target repairing scvs. I don't think the observer timing is be a problem against a 2 base widow mine drop. If the terran decides to drop, you can deflect the attack before moving out, since he'll have an overall smaller bio army and stim will be delayed. And yeah, you shouldn't have an observer out at 7:20 with this build... maybe if you delay your second stalker or something, but not without some tweaking. Or maybe if you have 2 probes on gas before expanding or something, I dunno. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
In a PvP, is it a bad idea to go robo tech vs SG tech? I have very mixed feelings in this scenario, sometimes blink stalkers and immortals seems to do perfectly well vs stalker + VR but sometimes i just get rekt. I am asking for same upgrades, especially interested in answer when we are still both on 0 upgrades. I feel like robo should be the safest way to open but sometimes either phoenix or a bit later timing VR just manage to ruin my day. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If you mean some kind of aggressive 3gate>robo>nexus, it can kind of work depending on how greedy the stargate player is and how you execute your 3gate. Since you need to keep a couple of stalkers at home to be safe vs oracles, what generally happens is that you just delay his nexus while taking yours. If you mean some kind of fast expand into robo, it's doable but it can be hard to defend oracle 3gate or phoenix builds without ending up considerably behind. If you mean in the midgame, if the other guy is going VR the correct response is to go blink and use it to gain some map control, take a third behind it and get storm. You do not want immortals in this case. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On September 11 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote: Weird question: Does anybody know of any refined builds for doing Immortal drops in PvT? I would guess that a 1 Gate Robo expand would work best? i dont main protoss so im not sure if the build would work in pvt or not but in wcs eu season 2 against golden i remember grubby doing a macro build where he went immortal drop into DTs. he messed it up but golden is better than grubby and i assume the build was at least refined prolly wont help as its a different matchup but its the best i could think of  | ||
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On September 11 2014 22:21 SatedSC2 wrote: Weird question: Does anybody know of any refined builds for doing Immortal drops in PvT? I would guess that a 1 Gate Robo expand would work best? Puck does immortal drops versus Terran on stream sometimes when he's trolling. He lost once and the opponent asked him if that were a legitimate build. Puck said that it wasn't. But I'm pretty sure Colossus dropping is more legit, espeically when Puck or MC is doing it. MC beat Jjakki like that in WCS EU Season 1. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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