EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 294
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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natashanatasha1243
Bolivia1 Post
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 12 2014 16:45 Teoita wrote: Catallena is kind of a bitch for defending, especially in some positions, but it should still be playable. It just sounds like your positioning and obs coverage good enough. Ok so it's not just me. I guess I need to make more observers? But I feel like the number of obs I have to make delays my Colo too much. Is it better to just open Templar in that case? So much airspace to cover and I'm getting a Twilight anyway.. Could go for the MC style warp prism harass/ Templar build. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Don Jimbo
70 Posts
~4:50 Twilight (research Blink ASAP) ~6:00 add two gates ~6:30 Robo ~6:45 natural gases ~7:30 three Stalkers ~7:45 Warp Prism ~8:00 three Stalkers ~8:10 Robo Bay and Observer ~8:45 - 10:00 pressure natural bunker with stalkers while prism dropping zealots in the main ~9:00 - 10:00 take third base, make Colossus and sentries at home, get range. ~10:00 add four gateways *Forges are really late with this build (12:00) | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 12 2014 18:33 Xanatoss wrote: In PvP my build is a fake 3 stalker 2 gate, with stargate after 1st stalker pushed his scout away. After that I build the additional 2 stalkers and push out to search for proxy pylons. My consideration now is to go for a 12 gate instead of 13, to gain an additional edge in a phoenix mirror (by starting up the production a bit sooner) and be safer against proxys and warpgate rushes. Any thoughts about this? if your opponent put their stargate down <20s than you did, there isn't really an advantage...both of you would be scared to move out because by the time you or the opponent moves across the map with the phoenixes the other player will either be equal in phoenix count or worse, have more...it's too much of a risk to take so both players will generally turtle, get to 3 bases and transition into templar tech overall, it's not worth going 12g for this build | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:15 DinoMight wrote: Ok so it's not just me. I guess I need to make more observers? But I feel like the number of obs I have to make delays my Colo too much. Is it better to just open Templar in that case? So much airspace to cover and I'm getting a Twilight anyway.. Could go for the MC style warp prism harass/ Templar build. It sounds like your build is the problem. If you posted a replay, it would be easier to see why your colossus is late and what the issues in your build are. Anyway, I honestly don't see how you can't have enough observers. Do you take your second geyser right after your nexus + msc? That should provide you with more gas than making your pylon first. Is your robo late? That makes a significant difference too. I really like the build that herO and Zest were doing a while ago, which is double gas at the natural at 6:05 or so, then twilight + robo bay at about 7:00. Then you can go 2 gates --> 1-2 forge or vice-versa, and later on, add 3 more gates. Then chrono colossi and blink, and start chronoing your forge once blink is finished and your first or second colossus is out. You can have a colossus out pretty early with this build if you build your robo bay first (as early as 9 minutes). Mine usually comes out at 9:15 because I prefer to build my twilight first. I have no problem getting 4 observers out with this build at all. Then I use one of them to scout, one to spot drops going to my main, one to spot anything coming in the direction of my natural, and one to spot anything moving towards my third. If you cover the edges of the map with pylons in order to cover the areas your observers can't, this setup shouldn't ever fail you imo unless the terran is crazy good. Notice that I don't play on Catallena, but most of these concepts should apply. You can also use 2 of your 3 defensive observers to spot drops in your main before taking a third. Then you can either reposition your observers or chrono another one as you move out to take a third. You can also start chronoing your robo earlier (at about 7:30, when you should have both bases nearly saturated if your macro is good and chronos on probes won't matter at this point) in order to get a 5th observer before your first colossus, but that's usually not necessary on most maps and will delay your colossus for a little bit... but your colossus should still come out no later than 9:30 tbh. And if you don't care about getting your first stalker out asap, you can go robo before your first stalker/wg in order to get that extra observer out. Notice that you most likely won't be able to block your ramp with 2 stalkers if you do this and your opponent goes hellions (though you can still do it with pylons + stalkers, but it's hard to react in time to do that) and it will take longer to have 3 stalkers out to deal with pokes. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On September 13 2014 01:54 vhapter wrote: Notice that I don't play on Catallena, but most of these concepts should apply. Catallena is really the only map I have issues with. Because the main is so large and there are so many places the medivacs can come from... | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 13 2014 02:43 DinoMight wrote: Catallena is really the only map I have issues with. Because the main is so large and there are so many places the medivacs can come from... On catellena or any map where drops are hard to deal with, i open oracle into phoenix colossus or the zest blink robo build mentioned above. With that u discourage terran from doing drops and have map control without observers If u really want to just open robo then i suggest u do pigbabys style which is fairly easy to learn or just post a replay like others said. in general, any robo first build SHOULD have 2 colossus when medivacs arrive | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 13 2014 01:49 .kv wrote: if your opponent put their stargate down <20s than you did, there isn't really an advantage...both of you would be scared to move out because by the time you or the opponent moves across the map with the phoenixes the other player will either be equal in phoenix count or worse, have more...it's too much of a risk to take so both players will generally turtle, get to 3 bases and transition into templar tech overall, it's not worth going 12g for this build But Classic did exactly this against San in Nimbus at Kespa cup. Basically you trade a bit of economy for an earlier phoenix. It can't be plain wrong if you trade something for something else, it just depends on the situation and what you want to do. EDIT: Actually Classic went 1 gate phoenixes and not 2 gate, though. Honestly I've never seen 2 gate phoenixes, because you're just too much behind against someone who goes 1 gate phoenixes. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:15 DinoMight wrote: Ok so it's not just me. I guess I need to make more observers? But I feel like the number of obs I have to make delays my Colo too much. Is it better to just open Templar in that case? So much airspace to cover and I'm getting a Twilight anyway.. Could go for the MC style warp prism harass/ Templar build. Check out the macro build Zest did in IEM. You can find a good example in the game on Overgrowth versus Yoda. He gets blink done at 11:00 and 4 observer before the first colossus, which still pops out surprisingly early (~8:45). To do this he gets the gases at the natural very early, around 5:50, and delays the 2nd forge until very late. But tbh in Catallena you can also go for blink all ins or you can just veto it out. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 14 2014 05:54 OPDream wrote: That Zest build you guys are crazy about, is almost a 100% loss vs proxy widow mines. i think that was already discussed, if u suspect proxy widow mine then u just skip twilight and go straight robo instead. and proxy factory isn't hard to scout anyway | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Finally, worrying about gimmicky build x or y when discussing something is pointless. Every build in the game (and in bw, and every other rts pretty much) can be countered in some way, and frankly, lots of so-called bo losses are imo more easily recoverable than many people think by simply executing better. | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On September 14 2014 06:09 Xinzoe wrote: i think that was already discussed, if u suspect proxy widow mine then u just skip twilight and go straight robo instead. and proxy factory isn't hard to scout anyway How do you suspect that? Terran can still proxy factory when they open with reaper. And protoss's map control is 0 when defending reaper. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 14 2014 07:10 OPDream wrote: How do you suspect that? Terran can still proxy factory when they open with reaper. And protoss's map control is 0 when defending reaper. just see how terran uses his gas. When I go anything other than robo first, i make msc (scout) and stalker before nexus so i can get a quicker scout off. and reaper -> proxy factory is extremely rare but you can usually tell if there is no reactor on rax. if its a reaper expand with inbase factory followup then u can still use the Zest build but sacrifice a few probes for the first widow mine shots. actually even an unscouted proxy factory is not so hard to stop, with good pylon placements, you can see it coming and use one unit to prevent it from landing. if its on lowground or outside your natural then use stalkers to kite and make sure it never reaches mineral line. sacrifice probes one by one if neccessary. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On September 14 2014 09:32 Xinzoe wrote: just see how terran uses his gas. When I go anything other than robo first, i make msc (scout) and stalker before nexus so i can get a quicker scout off. and reaper -> proxy factory is extremely rare but you can usually tell if there is no reactor on rax. if its a reaper expand with inbase factory followup then u can still use the Zest build but sacrifice a few probes for the first widow mine shots. actually even an unscouted proxy factory is not so hard to stop, with good pylon placements, you can see it coming and use one unit to prevent it from landing. if its on lowground or outside your natural then use stalkers to kite and make sure it never reaches mineral line. sacrifice probes one by one if neccessary. Sure you can open with msc and stalker first and take a late nexus. But I am talking about the zest build here, he sends his scouting probe back as soon as he sees terran open with a standard gas timing. There is no way you can know if terran proxy factory or not. Even if you don't see a reaper coming right away, it's totally normal opponent sends the reaper to scout any potential proxies before 5:30. It's very hard to stop the proxy factory outside your natural. In lower leagues, maybe you can kite to prevent widow mines reaching your mineral line. But high level terran always use an scv follow and auto-repair the first widow mine, at that point, you only have one stalker and a msc with not enough energy for photon overcharge. It's almost impossible to stop it reaching your mineral line. Then you would have to throw down an emergency robo, and wait over 90s to start mining your natural. Also you wouldn't have enough resource to start your blink research. The economy is behind, the game plan is fucked, GG. Just something from my experience on ladder. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
On September 14 2014 13:03 OPDream wrote: Sure you can open with msc and stalker first and take a late nexus. But I am talking about the zest build here, he sends his scouting probe back as soon as he sees terran open with a standard gas timing. There is no way you can know if terran proxy factory or not. Even if you don't see a reaper coming right away, it's totally normal opponent sends the reaper to scout any potential proxies before 5:30. It's very hard to stop the proxy factory outside your natural. In lower leagues, maybe you can kite to prevent widow mines reaching your mineral line. But high level terran always use an scv follow and auto-repair the first widow mine, at that point, you only have one stalker and a msc with not enough energy for photon overcharge. It's almost impossible to stop it reaching your mineral line. Then you would have to throw down an emergency robo, and wait over 90s to start mining your natural. Also you wouldn't have enough resource to start your blink research. The economy is behind, the game plan is fucked, GG. Just something from my experience on ladder. You pull probes, let the mine burry, you sacrefice 1 probe to detonate the mine then you return mining with rest of probes while you chrono your observer out. If you opened 1 gate expand after msc, your robo should be going down at approx 6min, so if he comes with mines he has time for 1 shot beffore your chronoed observer is out. It takes 20 seconds to build observer and mine has a 30 second cooldown after detonation. Hope this helps. Gl! | ||
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