EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 296
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Appelsoep
Belarus18 Posts
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AceLunaris
Malaysia2 Posts
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
On September 20 2014 14:07 AceLunaris wrote: as a newer player, is it better to focus on cheese builds or macro-oriented builds? You should 4 gate or any other basic build order every game until you master the basics, then transition to more macro-oriented builds. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Honestly, having learnt from playing exclusively macro builds until like low master, i can safely say that doing so has left my play with serious holes (my stalker micro is absolutely horrible for instance). Considering that looking at many top pros (flash to name one), they tend to start off as very cheesy players early on in their careers to then change to macro focused style,s i'd personally recommend, more or less, the first approach: start with a very simple build (4gate works perfectly), then branch fairly quickly off to having one build per matchup (say, 4gate pvp, proxy oracle into 4gate pvt, 7gate pvz), then add a more complex all-in on top of that (soultrains, colossus timings, 4gate blink in pvp), and then start going for macro games. At the end of the day though, as a newer player the most important thing of them all isn't to focus on improving, but simply to have fun in the game. Getting better and reaching higher leagues should not be a priority over that. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On September 20 2014 14:07 AceLunaris wrote: as a newer player, is it better to focus on cheese builds or macro-oriented builds? In addition to the advice already given I highly recommend the opening of that thread including the rant spoiler http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/433514-sc2-notes-how-to-plan-a-strategy | ||
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HavokAndre
United States7 Posts
I started playing SC2 back in 2010, and fell in love with the game, but after the release of HotS i slowly stopped playing and joined the Dota 2 community. I havn't played a game of Starcraft since around last November (went to Blizzcon). I was a low Diamond level Protoss player when I fully stopped playing. I'm asking the community, mainly Protoss players, what the current meta is like, and possibly some standard openings/ tech builds. Anything helps as i havnt even watched streams or any WCS matches for more than 6 months! Thank you in advanced, HavokAndre | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 23 2014 08:06 HavokAndre wrote: Hey all, I started playing SC2 back in 2010, and fell in love with the game, but after the release of HotS i slowly stopped playing and joined the Dota 2 community. I havn't played a game of Starcraft since around last November (went to Blizzcon). I was a low Diamond level Protoss player when I fully stopped playing. I'm asking the community, mainly Protoss players, what the current meta is like, and possibly some standard openings/ tech builds. Anything helps as i havnt even watched streams or any WCS matches for more than 6 months! Thank you in advanced, HavokAndre Hey, welcome back. You might not be aware of this, but player populations have decreased a little, so people are a little better at each skill bracket. So don't be discouraged if you're not back in Diamond, it doesn't necessarily mean that you've become worse. Anyway, I'll get to it. I play at high diamond for reference. In PvT, I'd point you to TLStrategy and Teoita's newly well written guide explaining Parting's BigBoy PvT. In general, you will play some sort of blink-colossus play. You'll be familiar with double upgrade styles from WoL, which are still viable to a certain degree, but will definitely start to phase off as you approach your first plateau. Therefore, Protoss has moved toward later upgrades and quicker tech. In PvZ, there is a style called +2 blink macro, which is a 7-8 min TC, 7-8 min Third, 9:30-10 min Robo. The opening revolves around expanding with 1 zealot, 6 sentries and going up to 10 sentries before starting stalker production. It's really forcefield dependent. I've struggled with roach and hydra plays a lot, but as my forcefields improve, I actually have the tools I need to deal with those plays. The main point of the build is to set yourself up for a high tempo games and basetrades if the zerg decides to play swarm hosts or mutalisks. I like it because I am able to deal with mutalisks without having to get double stargates. Instead, I just cannon up my third and go for a blink stalker based base trade. In PvP, people play with a large variety of builds, very often blink-based. I guess I would point to Zest at the KespaCup @YT Channel: EsportsTV. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On September 23 2014 17:16 TokO wrote: Hey, welcome back. You might not be aware of this, but player populations have decreased a little, so people are a little better at each skill bracket. So don't be discouraged if you're not back in Diamond, it doesn't necessarily mean that you've become worse. Anyway, I'll get to it. I play at high diamond for reference. In PvT, I'd point you to TLStrategy and Teoita's newly well written guide explaining Parting's BigBoy PvT. In general, you will play some sort of blink-colossus play. You'll be familiar with double upgrade styles from WoL, which are still viable to a certain degree, but will definitely start to phase off as you approach your first plateau. Therefore, Protoss has moved toward later upgrades and quicker tech. In PvZ, there is a style called +2 blink macro, which is a 7-8 min TC, 7-8 min Third, 9:30-10 min Robo. The opening revolves around expanding with 1 zealot, 6 sentries and going up to 10 sentries before starting stalker production. It's really forcefield dependent. I've struggled with roach and hydra plays a lot, but as my forcefields improve, I actually have the tools I need to deal with those plays. The main point of the build is to set yourself up for a high tempo games and basetrades if the zerg decides to play swarm hosts or mutalisks. I like it because I am able to deal with mutalisks without having to get double stargates. Instead, I just cannon up my third and go for a blink stalker based base trade. In PvP, people play with a large variety of builds, very often blink-based. I guess I would point to Zest at the KespaCup @YT Channel: EsportsTV. Is there a guide or at least some good VODs that you recommend for someone learning the PvZ macro blink opening? Is that called Sora style? | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On September 23 2014 22:14 Salient wrote: Is there a guide or at least some good VODs that you recommend for someone learning the PvZ macro blink opening? Is that called Sora style? I recommend watching Rain's stream -> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/SC2Rain He's been doing it in most of his PvZs. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 23 2014 22:21 DarkLordOlli wrote: I recommend watching Rain's stream -> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/SC2Rain He's been doing it in most of his PvZs. He must really like me then, every time i watch him PvZ he's just 2base allining xD | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
On September 20 2014 14:25 aznheat80 wrote: You should 4 gate or any other basic build order every game until you master the basics, then transition to more macro-oriented builds. Totally agree. Micro and cheese is the bread and butter of Protoss and macroing is easy once you get the basics and micro. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 23 2014 22:14 Salient wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 23 2014 17:16 TokO wrote: Hey, welcome back. You might not be aware of this, but player populations have decreased a little, so people are a little better at each skill bracket. So don't be discouraged if you're not back in Diamond, it doesn't necessarily mean that you've become worse. Anyway, I'll get to it. I play at high diamond for reference. In PvT, I'd point you to TLStrategy and Teoita's newly well written guide explaining Parting's BigBoy PvT. In general, you will play some sort of blink-colossus play. You'll be familiar with double upgrade styles from WoL, which are still viable to a certain degree, but will definitely start to phase off as you approach your first plateau. Therefore, Protoss has moved toward later upgrades and quicker tech. In PvZ, there is a style called +2 blink macro, which is a 7-8 min TC, 7-8 min Third, 9:30-10 min Robo. The opening revolves around expanding with 1 zealot, 6 sentries and going up to 10 sentries before starting stalker production. It's really forcefield dependent. I've struggled with roach and hydra plays a lot, but as my forcefields improve, I actually have the tools I need to deal with those plays. The main point of the build is to set yourself up for a high tempo games and basetrades if the zerg decides to play swarm hosts or mutalisks. I like it because I am able to deal with mutalisks without having to get double stargates. Instead, I just cannon up my third and go for a blink stalker based base trade. In PvP, people play with a large variety of builds, very often blink-based. I guess I would point to Zest at the KespaCup @YT Channel: EsportsTV. Is there a guide or at least some good VODs that you recommend for someone learning the PvZ macro blink opening? Is that called Sora style? I'll try to jot down a few vods, and a few explanations. Day9 Daily #723 Classic vs soO - This daily doesn't exactly show the build, however, it shows some modifications (the core is still the same) and elaborates on some of the protoss mid-game goals and movements. Game 1 is a stargate opening, while Game 2 is a delayed TC opening. Both games have a sentry-heavy third and aggressive movement, which is part of the build, but by no means compulsory. It kinda highlights some of the ways you can utilize the build after you build some confidence. Next I would ideally link some of the games I used as reference to learn the build, however, small complication. I primary used GSL ro32 Group A games as reference. But they've been blocked in the country I'm currently in. I used the GOMexp Korea site, as they have all games in the series, while the English page only has the first game per match. Coincidentally, the first games are the worst ones for learning this build. You could try and go through all the PvZ's though, and salvage whatever you can. There might be some good vods out there that I'm not aware off. I'll give you some of my "notes" on the build and its variations though. TC Before or After 3rd Nexus - I build my TC before. It gives me more oomph in case I decide to go for a super quick blink stalker all-in. It also makes my early aggression more potent. Building Placement - Initial building placement, I play a nexus first into gateway, core and then forge. Pylons 1-3 are places on Mineral line -> Ramp -> Natural. Buildings goes as follows, 1 Chrono at 11/18 when 1st Pylon finish. Rally 14th Probe to Natural, 15 Nexus (scout with this probe for gas), 15 Gateway in Main Mineral Line, 2nd Chrono on Nexus, 2nd Pylon at 17 (send probe early) to ramp. Cybercore at Ramp when Gate finish. Around 4:35 I build my 3rd Pylon at the Natural. At 5:00 I try to get the forge down. Main gases go down at 18/19 supply. I've seen many koreans place their cybernetics core in their mineral line as well, but I feel like that is too vulnerable to some wacky all-ins. Therefore, I interpret that as a calculated risk, and I think sOs does put the cybercore at his ramp in the GSL ro32 matches (other than Nimbus and the games he cannon rushes). Colossus vs. Immortals - The main difference seems to be that Colossus is stronger straight up, especially against Hydra styles. However, they are more gas intensive, more vulnerable to early viper plays and otherwise mistakes you could make. Immortals are cheaper, and I feel makes it easier to get up your stalker count really quickly for a higher tempo game. With good forcefields, Stalker-Sentry-Immortal is perfectly capable of dealing with Hydra compositions as the game goes on. Since immortals cost less gas, it's also easier to replenish sentries if you make mistakes. . 2 Stargate Phoenix vs. Mass Stalker against Mutalisks - I think most people will agree that 2 Stargate Phoenix is the safest and most consistent play, given that the transition is sound and control is good. I'm not a very talented player and my multi-group control is horrible, generally lack confidence in phoenix play. So I often opt for a play where I just continue with my current composition. Warp only stalkers and cannons, and try to hit a timing where mutalisks are inferior to both my defenses, photon overcharge + cannons, and my offensive, guardian shield vs. un-upgraded and uncritical amounts of muta is laughable. I think Rain has been said to be doing this a lot, but I haven't witnessed it personally. I want to emphasise that I play at a generally low level and might not have the optimal build yet. It is from a perspective of laddering with a single build, which might have certain deficiencies implemented to deal with issues where I lack knowledge. E.g. Cybercore at ramp, early forge and natural wall.. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
TC Before or After 3rd Nexus There's no point going TC before 3rd nexus in a 3base blink build because you always want to synch up +2 and blink together. Rushing blink faster doesn't really give you any advantages, in the early game having recall available gives you all the mobility necessary to pressure Colossus vs. Immortals This is mostly true, but colossus tech is mandatory against swarm hosts. Pure blink/immortal is kind of viable, but you need to force fights while unit counts (especially hydra counts) are low. Roach Hydra, especially with viper support, destroys pure stalker/immortal. The idea that colossi are particularly vulnerable against quick viper builds isn't entirelly correct either; if you scout the hive tech in time and get 3-4 templar for feedback you should be able to hold off his attack easily. 2 Stargate Phoenix vs. Mass Stalker against Mutalisks It is absolutely MANDATORY to hit a timing (and prepare for a base trade) if you choose to not go phoenix vs muta. You can NOT drag a game long without phoenixes vs mutas. It's not a question of what is safe or solid, but more about how the protoss decides to play out the game: going phoenixes ends up in a long game and the need to defend at least another tech switch, but base trading against mutas generally favours the zerg because muta/ling is the most mobile army in the game (and zerg the best race at baseracing regardless of the army he has). | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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ENV.Mamba
Poland2 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 18 2014 22:55 Appelsoep wrote: against widow mine drops you need robo, so i just build a robo and a couple of obs, you really dont have to scout at all if you play it safe/standard. mothershipcore can hold every rush. Stargate is the best opening against widow mine drops. You go oracle -> phoenixes. It crushes any 1-1-1 play with ease and then you can transition into phoenix colossus. | ||
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WastedSunsets
United States8 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/412527-tl-strategy-portal | ||
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