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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 14 2014 07:10 OPDream wrote: How do you suspect that? Terran can still proxy factory when they open with reaper. And protoss's map control is 0 when defending reaper. Hide a probe on the map and go back to the terran's main to check for the followup to the reaper. Alternatively, let your zealot finish and sneak him the reaper. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On September 14 2014 17:56 Teoita wrote: Hide a probe on the map and go back to the terran's main to check for the followup to the reaper. Alternatively, let your zealot finish and sneak him the reaper. I was talking about if zest sends scouting probe back as soon as he sees terran open with a standard gas timing, there is no way to know if terran proxy a factory or not. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 15 2014 07:33 OPDream wrote: I was talking about if zest sends scouting probe back as soon as he sees terran open with a standard gas timing, there is no way to know if terran proxy a factory or not. Remember the players Zest is playing with: he's taking a gamble based on out of game information regarding the players, I.E. metagaming. If you don't know the player you are playing against, don't pull the scouting probe home, hide it and send it back in to scout. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On September 15 2014 10:36 Whitewing wrote: Remember the players Zest is playing with: he's taking a gamble based on out of game information regarding the players, I.E. metagaming. If you don't know the player you are playing against, don't pull the scouting probe home, hide it and send it back in to scout. According to what u said, zest just takes gamble against every terran player in every pvt game, cus he never hides the scouting probe and sends it back in unless it's not a 2 player map and he doesn't scout opponent at the first time. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 15 2014 11:48 OPDream wrote: According to what u said, zest just takes gamble against every terran player in every pvt game, cus he never hides the scouting probe and sends it back in unless it's not a 2 player map and he doesn't scout opponent at the first time. That's correct. It's not uncommon at all. For a while CJ_herO was going fast 3 nexus into twilight council with no robo. He didn't stop doing that until Maru beat him multiple times with a delayed cloak banshee. MKP went blind triple CC into double e-bay every single game... forever, even when zergs were hardcountering him left and right. Hell, Life beat him with a 7 roach rush because of it. Proxy widow mines is something that most normal protoss builds deal with very easily, so terrans aren't accustomed or practiced at doing it lately. Zest is taking a reasonable gamble against top players who aren't likely to employ that strategy, until they have more time to study him. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On September 15 2014 13:14 OPDream wrote: Ye, that's what I was talking about, Zest's blink build is BO loss to proxy widow mine. A build order loss? That's a huge leap in logic. That's like saying blink auto-loses to dts - a situation which is far messier -, when you can proxy a robo and still win the game. First of all, seeing a scout scv generally gives away the fact that it's not a gas first proxy factory build even if you don't probe scout. The presence of a reaper also indicates it's not gas first. If the terran went gas first and proxied his factory, he can either rally widow mines to the protoss base, which gives away the strategy and is very easy to scout, or do a widow mine drop. The widow mine drop can also be scouted in the early game when you see there's no reaper, so you can just send your msc to scout temporarily. So you see it's a reaper, but the proxy a factory for a "quick" widow mine drop. How does that make you auto-lose? Sacrifice 1-2 probes, get detection asap, and take control of the game. You will have detection against a player who proxied 2 important tech structures and delayed his barracks and stim in favor of tech, so he won't be able to make widow mines defensively. It's only a build order loss if you're not skilled enough to handle the drop. I recall seeing Zest do a blink all-in (can't recall if it was on 1 base or 2 bases) against a widow mine drop on King Sejong in Code S. He hadn't even started his robo by the time the terran dropped him and his army was all the way across the map. Yet, he won the game with good micro and multi-tasking even in that messy situation. So how can a build that gets a robo before you're dropped or move out a build order loss against reaper into proxy widow mine drop? | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 15 2014 15:25 vhapter wrote: A build order loss? That's a huge leap in logic. That's like saying blink auto-loses to dts - a situation which is far messier -, when you can proxy a robo and still win the game. First of all, seeing a scout scv generally gives away the fact that it's not a gas first proxy factory build even if you don't probe scout. The presence of a reaper also indicates it's not gas first. If the terran went gas first and proxied his factory, he can either rally widow mines to the protoss base, which gives away the strategy and is very easy to scout, or do a widow mine drop. The widow mine drop can also be scouted in the early game when you see there's no reaper, so you can just send your msc to scout temporarily. So you see it's a reaper, but the proxy a factory for a "quick" widow mine drop. How does that make you auto-lose? Sacrifice 1-2 probes, get detection asap, and take control of the game. You will have detection against a player who proxied 2 important tech structures and delayed his barracks and stim in favor of tech, so he won't be able to make widow mines defensively. It's only a build order loss if you're not skilled enough to handle the drop. I recall seeing Zest do a blink all-in (can't recall if it was on 1 base or 2 bases) against a widow mine drop on King Sejong in Code S. He hadn't even started his robo by the time the terran dropped him and his army was all the way across the map. Yet, he won the game with good micro and multi-tasking even in that messy situation. So how can a build that gets a robo before you're dropped or move out a build order loss against reaper into proxy widow mine drop? I agree. Zest's build has some weaknesses to fast widow mine pressure, but it can hold it fairly well. I'd say a disadvantage at worst if you've got the reaction down properly. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 15 2014 14:29 Xanatoss wrote: So, adjust by rescout with the initial probe and use msc to scout for proxy if u suspect something? Its not like the build is unable to adapt at all. Pretty much. Spreading the initial 3-4 pylons to cover the entire main also helps as it prevents the terran from landing a fact in your main. Proxy mine is really easy to deal with as long as you spot the mines early and zone them out with your stalkers and msc, which is also why it's a very rarely used build at the pro level. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On September 15 2014 13:14 OPDream wrote: Ye, that's what I was talking about, Zest's blink build is BO loss to proxy widow mine. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
 First of all, I wasn't talking about mine drop. Just a standard proxy factory outside your base and walk the widow mine in your base, which hit much faster. Second, if terran open with a standard gas timing, you cannot know if there is proxy factory or not. Just think this by yourself, simple logic. The thing is ZEST's build is fine against the standard 7:30ish widow mine drop timing, but it's terrible against a proxy factory that walks the mine in your mineral line, which hit much faster, when you only have 1 stalker and a msc without enough energy for photon overcharge. I've said, you ofc can kite the widow mine to prevent it from ur mineral line, but good terran use an scv follow the mine and auto-repair it, sometimes they sacrifice a few marines just to make sure the mine can reach your mineral line. To get an obs from emergency robo, you need about 90s, which means a mine can explode about 3 times. If you are really good, you would only lose 5, 6 probes. But still, plus the lost mining time, your economy would be behind so much. Also you wouldn't have enough resource to start blink research after you throw down the emergency robo. If you are smart, start to tech to AOE unit first instead of blink is the right choice. Cus there would be no timing for any blink aggression, and spend chronoboost on blink research when you are very behind in economy is not smart. At this point, the original game plan and build order are totally fucked up, you would have to play a standard robo first build under a behind economy. If it's not a BO loss, a big BO disadvantage?  | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
you cannot know if there is proxy factory or not like i said u cant be 100% sure but if u go back to terrans base after reaper is in the middle of the map and see no reactor then u can assume proxy factory. if terran makes a reactor AND proxy fact then its hits too late that you'll only lose 3 probes max with good control. and when proxy fact is that late you should have at least 2 stalkers and MSC out to kill the widow mine + any SCVs that are used to repair it. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
I was talking about standard proxy factory timing, not some strange proxy fact after reaper. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 16 2014 08:20 OPDream wrote: Nah man, I never said u need to be 100% sure of what your opponent is doing. Thats why there is build order advantage and disadvantage. The blink build puts u in a disadvantage position. I was talking about standard proxy factory timing, not some strange proxy fact after reaper. i dont really understand what you are arguing here then, if its a gas first build then u dont go twilight, u go straight robo.. you think if zest sees gas first he would go twilight also??? | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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