EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 297
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 28 2014 06:31 Extenz wrote: How do you defend 10 gate into 3 gate in pvp? Seriously I've lost to it like 6 times in a row, sentries dont work cause he comes up with the probe stalker and zealot, dts dont work cause he makes a robo outside my base, and getting up my gates doesnt work cause they are too late. I scout after cybercore. I'm by no means a PvP expert, but generally, if your build does not account for holding a build such as 10gate, you should move your scout earlier in order to be able to react better. In general, the gateway scout is a more preferred scout to cyber core scout, as the purpose of your scout is to read gases, chrono's and possible missing pylons. I assume that your rationale for the cyber core scout is that you want to scout a tech building, but this is worse for a couple of reasons. Late read gives you less time to react, also, almost all protoss builds will start with a stalker and an msc, and will probably deny your scout before needing to place a tech structure. Also, in terms of holding off the 10gate, it will be very apparent to you when you scout with gateway. If you successfully scout early. Earlier gateways can be an option, as well as pylon wall at the ramp, in case he relies on zealots. The general idea is to get an early unit advantage, and then leverage and maintaining that unit advantage until your warpgate tech comes into play and then you should be even or ahead. Pull probes if necessary, as staying alive is better than dying. Although, be wary, as if you take too much damage, he might be able to go into a macro game, which is sometimes manageable if you have two gases and he messes up transition, even if you're slightly behind in probes. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 28 2014 06:31 Extenz wrote: How do you defend 10 gate into 3 gate in pvp? Seriously I've lost to it like 6 times in a row, sentries dont work cause he comes up with the probe stalker and zealot, dts dont work cause he makes a robo outside my base, and getting up my gates doesnt work cause they are too late. I scout after cybercore. if you scout after cybercore i recommend you build a blind 2nd gateway at 20 supply. this is what cj herO does almost everygame PvP to stay safe against any early pressure/proxy oracle stuff. once you scout the 3 gate, you cut probes immediately and make 3rd and 4th gate. It doesn't really put you behind that much against a greedy player. also on maps like nimbus, you just have to accept a BO loss if you happen to scout him last. On Nimbus I just go DT or 10 gate myself, its really stupid.... | ||
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SnakeDoctor
Poland121 Posts
I'm mid diamond P and lately I've been struggling with PvZ. Up till recently my go to build was 1 gate msc expand of 1 gas into 3 additional gates and then zealot pressure. But it seems less and less effective and I need some other type of opening. Should I go back to FFE or is there some other generic build I could use? | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On September 28 2014 18:52 SnakeDoctor wrote: Hi, I'm mid diamond P and lately I've been struggling with PvZ. Up till recently my go to build was 1 gate msc expand of 1 gas into 3 additional gates and then zealot pressure. But it seems less and less effective and I need some other type of opening. Should I go back to FFE or is there some other generic build I could use? If you read last page there's a really long explanation of a PvZ build that was prevalent like two months ago or so, during GSL Season 3 Ro32. It's a nexus first build, and I really like it, as it really puts pressure on the zerg to do something while you're just herpaderping probing and scouting with hallucinated phoenix. With MsC you're putting yourself too much behind, and puts a lot more pressure on your transition in the cases that you're unable to do damage. It's basically much more difficult to pull of a MsC expand as zergs become better.. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 28 2014 06:31 Extenz wrote: How do you defend 10 gate into 3 gate in pvp? Seriously I've lost to it like 6 times in a row, sentries dont work cause he comes up with the probe stalker and zealot, dts dont work cause he makes a robo outside my base, and getting up my gates doesnt work cause they are too late. I scout after cybercore. dts almost always works. Could you post a replay where it fails? Anyway, I also counter it with fast stargate (~3:45) pretty often. You send an oracle when he has absolutely nothing, and he can't even warp in stalkers because he probably won't have either the warpgates ready or the resources to do it. Then you activate photon overcharge, get 3 quick warpgates and a void ray, pull probes and you should be able to defend. 3 stalker mothership core into 2 more stalkers and 3rd gateway should be the easiest way though, but you need to start with the right opening unless you scout really early (which isn't that good because you'll have everything about 5 seconds later). Sentries is definitely a shitty response. Best case scenario you get contained while you bank like 600 minerals with no tech. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 29 2014 03:37 SatedSC2 wrote: Or you hold the all-in and then counter with one-base Colossus for a simple win? Holding Gateway all-ins using Sentries is incredibly simple and sets you up for a very strong counter-attack if you don't lose your head... You literally need all of your gas on sentries, how are you supposed to tech to colossus? It would hit at like 11 minutes on one base. Not gonna work. But even if it could, I doubt you can just hold a 10 gate into 3 warpgates anyway. By the time you can get a sentry out he is inside your base with a zealot and a probe proxying pylons. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 29 2014 04:04 SatedSC2 wrote: I've done it loads of times so it definitely works. If you are taking both gases early and putting three in each then you can easily afford to do what I said. If you're only going for two in each gas then other options might be more appropriate, but I still think it would be wholly possible. Also, if they're inside your base with a Zealot and a Probe before you can get a Sentry then frankly you fucked up, or you scouted late which is basically the equivalent of fucking up. I would like to see a replay then. Until you have 6 sentries to costantly forcefield you can't afford to spend gas anywhere else. You get 240 gas/minute on a single base, which means it takes 25 seconds to gather enough gas to build a sentry, and a forcefield lasts only 15. Obviously the earlier sentries will charge their energy up eventually, but it still gives you the idea of how much gas starved you are at that point. Warping in sentries means that your army will always be worse than his even if he doesn't warp in that many rounds, and you can't even cut his army in a half because his zealots will smash your sentries immediately. Regarding the timings, you're right. I tried and on overgrowth I can have a zealot on my opponent's ramp at 4.15. You can have a sentry slightly earlier than that if you chronoboost it, around 4:10 off of 13 gate. Still, a sentry takes 25 seconds to build with 2 chronoboosts (and you need to bank the 4th chrono which you normally put on probes to do so). No way you could get the 2nd sentry on time. Checked also the time I could get a single colossus at my opponent's natural, spending all the gas immediately after 6 sentries and a mothership core (no immortals), it was 10:15. Honestly at that timing an army purely made of zealots and sentries + 1 colossus without range doesn't seem that scary to me, even against someone who started with 10 gate into 3 gate. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On September 29 2014 04:48 SatedSC2 wrote: You don't need 6 Sentries so your analysis is ridiculous. Unfortunately I don't have a replay because I don't tend to save replays of bad games. It depends on how many units your opponent builds. Each sentry charges up (just like every sc2 unit and building) 34 energy per minute. You need 4 forcefields/minute which is 200 energy. You can clearly see that 5x34= 170 is not enough while 6x34 = 204 -barely enough. If you aren't convinced by the math you can try it yourself and see that with 5 sentries there's a point where you don't have enough energy to chain forcefields for enough time that his whole army can get up your ramp, when you only have those 5 energyless sentries and a few zealots. Obviously your opponent doesn't know how many units you have above that ramp. It's a coinflip to try and come above when he sees that you're not forcefielding. It's also a coinflip for you to skip a sentry hoping that he's not crazy enough to climb the ramp. Overall, 6 sentries is the safer option. By the way, that still leaves the problem of getting the 2nd sentry out on time. Whether you build 5 or 6 sentries doesn't make that much of a difference when you're already dead. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
Also, for the super late game, I think Air-toss is much easier to pull off, so this graphic is useful. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BesTLT9CIAQKet4.png:large (made by Snute) | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
On September 29 2014 18:11 SatedSC2 wrote: That's one way and it's definitely my preferred way. There are more than enough timing-attacks and all-ins that you can use to kill a Zerg before they get a critical mass of Swarm Hosts if like me you'd rather cut off your hands than play against them. As for the actual answer, what you need to be doing is constantly harassing the Zerg at multiple locations whilst using your main army to kill outlying bases. You have to be extremely mobile because sitting back and passively building up a Colossus-heavy army will only give the Zerg the time and space they need to set-up a transition into something that counters a Colossus-heavy army (usually a Mutalisk switch). The most important thing is that you should never be trying to face the Swarm Hosts head on. You shouldn't be thinking, "I need these units to go and kill the Swarm Hosts", you should be thinking, "I need these units to go and kill this base". There are lots of things that can be used to keep your main army away from Locusts whilst they snipe bases (Forcefields, Blink, Time Warp, Recall etc.) and whilst you're doing this Warp Prisms should be used to send Zealots and Dark Templar into the Zerg's other bases. That you do these things simultaneously is very important as it forces the Zerg to use their Swarm Hosts defensively rather than offensively and this should give you time back home to mass Colossi, tech towards a Mothership, and take the expansions needed to fund such a ridiculously expensive army. Eventually it will come down to Templar vs. Vipers because you absolutely cannot engage Swarm Hosts without the cloaking gifted by the Mothership, it's just far too cost-ineffective to fight through waves of Locust. The Mothership absolutely cannot get abducted else you need to wait an age for another and you are very vulnerable whilst it rebuilds... Whats a good timing attack build on bigger maps (Deadwing)? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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