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On October 01 2014 03:56 Teoita wrote:
Really, he goes 10gate 3gate, has to wait until ~7 minutes until your nexus cannon finishes at which point you can warp in dts while, as i said, still being able to afford about 7 units along with the msc, he instantly builds a proxy robo, gets an observer, does not mine for about 40 seconds, and still has enough units to overwhelm your army and probes? Sounds like a sick build, do you have a replay?
Yes, i swear its what happens. I need to find a replay because i play many games, anyway he stops mining a little after the photon overcharge cause dts are ready only then.
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Hey guys quick Q -
In PvT say you Probe scout after Gateway and see a Reaper expand while going for a 1 gate expand off 1 gas. You get a MsC asap and add a Stalker right after. Then you add robo and gets an obs ASAP. How do you scout and when? I don't like sending the first Stalker out because with good Reaper control they can always get probe kills. What do you do with your first observer? Do you rally it to scout or do you keep it nearby in case they're dropping mines or doing something else?
I just find it very hard to get map control early given how annoying reapers are and how much damage a widow mine can do to your econ.
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On October 02 2014 00:24 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 00:13 DinoMight wrote:
Hey guys quick Q -
In PvT say you Probe scout after Gateway and see a Reaper expand while going for a 1 gate expand off 1 gas. You get a MsC asap and add a Stalker right after. Then you add robo and gets an obs ASAP. How do you scout and when? I don't like sending the first Stalker out because with good Reaper control they can always get probe kills. What do you do with your first observer? Do you rally it to scout or do you keep it nearby in case they're dropping mines or doing something else?
I just find it very hard to get map control early given how annoying reapers are and how much damage a widow mine can do to your econ. It's fairly standard to send your first Observer across the map to scout. I think that if they haven't sent a Reaper to your base and you know they took gas then you should keep the Observer at home because fast Widow Mines are likely, but if you do see a Reaper then you should be safe to send your first Observer to scout because they're not rushing all their gas into Widow Mine drops. As for the other question, I think that sending the first Stalker to scout once you've pushed the Reaper out of your base is the normal way of doing it. By the time the Reaper has healed up to full health/looped around to take a secondary route into your main base, you should have a second Stalker ready to help the MSC defend. Alternatively, you can send the MSC to scout and leave the first Stalker at home to defend if the map is good for that sort of thing.
I do that on Nimbus sometimes if their natural is on the side exposed to me, the MSC scouting.
So the best thing to do is MsC, Stalker, Stalker?
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing in PvT lately.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 02 2014 00:13 DinoMight wrote:
Hey guys quick Q -
In PvT say you Probe scout after Gateway and see a Reaper expand while going for a 1 gate expand off 1 gas. You get a MsC asap and add a Stalker right after. Then you add robo and gets an obs ASAP. How do you scout and when? I don't like sending the first Stalker out because with good Reaper control they can always get probe kills. What do you do with your first observer? Do you rally it to scout or do you keep it nearby in case they're dropping mines or doing something else?
I just find it very hard to get map control early given how annoying reapers are and how much damage a widow mine can do to your econ.
Hide the probe on the map, try to get a scout in while the reaper is scouting you. If you get back around ~4 minutes he won't have a marine and the reaper will not be in position to deny your scout.
I think as long as you don't see gas first your first obs should always go across the map. It's really important to tell the difference between a mine drop (against which you need to be a little more careful/defensive) and a simple reactor marine opening.
As far as units off your gateway go, you should pretty much make stalkers non stop until warpgate. You do not need sentries early on to build up energy for defense because of overcharge, and stalkers are very good vs mine drops, bio pokes and hellion builds.
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Just a few notes from my friend who play at a pretty high level. If you wall off one side of your nexus, a MsC can prevent reaper probe kills alone. Which allows you to send off your stalker to their front. This is useful because you can check his unit count, which might reveal possible shenanigans. You can also weaken any kind of early rax aggression, before stim is ready.
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On October 02 2014 00:52 TokO wrote:
Just a few notes from my friend who play at a pretty high level. If you wall off one side of your nexus, a MsC can prevent reaper probe kills alone. Which allows you to send off your stalker to their front. This is useful because you can check his unit count, which might reveal possible shenanigans. You can also weaken any kind of early rax aggression, before stim is ready.
Yeah I do that. It helps a lot, but sometimes they still get 1 kill if the Reaper arrives a second or so before my MsC finishes.
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Austria24422 Posts
On some maps and in some spawns, like Catallena close-by-reaper spawns, it gets really annoying. Reaper almost always gets there seconds before the MSC can even be out.
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I'm going:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 cyber
nexus asap
msc asap
Is that ideal for a 1 gas expand? I fake Zealot if I see an SCV scout. Or should I get the MsC first and delay my Nexus a little but be safer?
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Italy12246 Posts
If you feel like you can't micro your probes vs the reaper, going msc first is fine.
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Canada13389 Posts
You can also position your buildings in such a way that its easier to micro the probe away, or at the very least force the reaper to commit really heavily. You want to block off a path behind the minerals and put a gateway near the gas/nexus on the other side, this makes it harder for the reaper to kill the probe and get away.
You can move the probe away from the reaper and then the reaper has a longer path to safety than otherwise. Something I learned from Minigun!
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On October 02 2014 01:36 Teoita wrote:
If you feel like you can't micro your probes vs the reaper, going msc first is fine.
I might just start doing that. I'm already losing my scouting probe every game, no need to lose 2.
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Yeah, blocking one side of your mineral line - at least the back - nowadays is commonplace and helps immensely. I'd advise against going msc before your nexus, as your msc should pop out just in time. What I think helps a lot is blocking not only the back of your mineral line, but entirely walling off one side of your nexus, which is usually easy to do with a single pylon, gateway, and cybercore. Then, I'd take my first geyser on the side that isn't walled off so that the reaper can't do much at all on the other side.
This way, you can pretty much park your msc on the path that leads to your open side of the nexus and protect that. If the reaper comes from the wrong side, he takes damage going around your nexus and has to back off quickly. If he comes from the open side and messes up, he dies or gets really low on hp. Any probes he targets should be easy to save - just quickly select it or box a very small amount of probes around it if you prefer and move it away.
If you simcity your main like I said, you can go nexus --> msc and your msc should still pop out on the side of your nexus that needs defending in time to deal with the reaper. I'm not even good at microing vs reapers imo and I just can't recall the last time I lost a single probe without actually killing the reaper in return because they pretty much suicided it. And sometimes they suicide it and without even getting a probe kill in return.
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You can even send a couple of probes on the reaper to make a "probe-field", making it even more difficult to chase the probe he opts to try to kill.
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On October 02 2014 02:57 TokO wrote:
You can even send a couple of probes on the reaper to make a "probe-field", making it even more difficult to chase the probe he opts to try to kill.
Yeah, if he tries to go inside your mineral line to kill a single probe and the other side is walled off, that's pretty basic micro and will probably spell doom for said reaper.
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Recently I've been struggling somewhat against robo openings in PvP. I usually go for the dt/robo expand as my opening. What I find is that in this situation, the dt's are virtually useless and get almost no damage done. This puts me behind now, and sometimes I'll just end up dying because I have less colossi or immortals, and the archons that I can get from dts aren't particularly good against robo units. What is the best followup do a dt/robo expand against a robo expand?
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Italy12246 Posts
Chronoboost a warp prism and go for a dt drop in his main while sneaking in a second dt at his natural. Generally, your nexus should be about as fast as his, so even if you can't do much damage it's no big deal as long as you don't lose dt's.
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On October 02 2014 00:13 DinoMight wrote:
Hey guys quick Q -
In PvT say you Probe scout after Gateway and see a Reaper expand while going for a 1 gate expand off 1 gas. You get a MsC asap and add a Stalker right after. Then you add robo and gets an obs ASAP. How do you scout and when? I don't like sending the first Stalker out because with good Reaper control they can always get probe kills. What do you do with your first observer? Do you rally it to scout or do you keep it nearby in case they're dropping mines or doing something else?
I just find it very hard to get map control early given how annoying reapers are and how much damage a widow mine can do to your econ.
The best way to scout in PvT is this:
after the cybercore send a probe and hide it in his side of the map (you want to do it this early so that you won't come across the reaper with your probe).
At about 4:00, when the reaper is already half across the map, send your probe into his base. If he started reaper reactor expand, 99% of the times he won't have a wall off nor any units inside his base, so you get to scout literally everything.
This is the only scout you need before observer imo. Obviously if you're on 3-4 spawn maps you want to send the probe earlier (13-14 supply) , if you scout him in first position, hide the probe away and send it back at 4:00-4:15 as I explained before.
Obviously the downside is that you won't be able to see immediately the gas timing. However if you send the probe at 4:00-4:15 and you see no expo and marines up his ramp, you know he started with 1-1-1 or proxy factory, and it's early enough so that you can react. I don't see that many advantages in scouting a gas first earlier than 4:15.
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EPT
