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Italy12246 Posts
I strongly disagree. 3base blink actually rose to popularity to counter swarm host builds. If you just do a passive stargate opener instead you leave the entire map to the Zerg, giving him a free 4th and 5th along with map control and creep spread. At that point, even rushing out the colosuss/void ray/templar deathball isn't enough to deal with a zerg.
3base blink on the other hand takes map control, contains creep and denies outlying bases much better, and can even win the game outright, while still having decent tech. The biggest downside of that style (other than the fact that it's way harder to execute imo) is that you do not have one or more stargates already up, so dealing with mutas is a little tougher. As someone pointed out earlier, your thought process shouldn't be "i have to use these units to kill the zerg's units", but rather "i have to use these units to kill off creep, 4th and 5th hatcheries, while i start colossus tech and sneak in my warp prism".
Chargelot/immortal/archon timings do not really exist anymore, kind of...we really shouldn't devolve this thread into a discussion over what is viable on ladder and what isn't though. If it works for you, do it 
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On September 29 2014 05:10 SatedSC2 wrote:
You're relying too much on maths. I guess I'll just have to save a replay next time I beat a 3 Gate with Sentries =/
What League are you playing? On 2 player maps you can't have 2 sentries ready to stop him coming up your ramp with zealot probe spamming pylons.
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Italy12246 Posts
I personally have always held aggressive warpgate timings (in hots) by going 3stalker rush>dt, while going msc first and placing my twilight council before starting stalkers 2 and 3. It's not the prettiest hold, but i've always made it work.
Alternatively, i imagine you could apply some wol-style thinking and 3gate yourself, but doing a more eco friendly version like 3stalker rush>3gate. That, combined with the msc buying time, should put you ahead in the long run.
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On September 30 2014 22:18 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 22:10 Extenz wrote:On September 29 2014 05:10 SatedSC2 wrote:
You're relying too much on maths. I guess I'll just have to save a replay next time I beat a 3 Gate with Sentries =/ What League are you playing? On 2 player maps you can't have 2 sentries ready to stop him coming up your ramp with zealot probe spamming pylons. I'm a Masters player. If I'm using my Sentry opening (1 Gate FE) then I would have a Zealot and a Sentry when the Zealot and the Probe poke forward. There would also be a Mothership Core either on the way or in the air. This is more than enough to kill both the Probe and the Zealot if they commit to spamming Pylons in my base. They certainly should not be able to start spamming Pylons inside my base if I don't derp. The best they will get is a single Pylon near my ramp and that will die before it can warp anything in. I guess if you skip the Zealot then going Sentries wouldn't be the best idea because you'd need a Forcefield just to stop the Zealot and the Probe walking into your base, but if you're intending to open with Sentries then I don't see the point in skipping the Zealot. That I would have a Zealot is probably a crucial element missing from the previous analysis and something I shouldn't have avoided mentioning, so I apologise for that. I suppose it does means that going Sentries isn't a good idea unless you've already gotten a Zealot because the Zealot is a crucial piece of the puzzle. I'd just never think to skip the Zealot if I was going down that route. It's part of the only Sentry-based opening that I use! EDIT: As said above, if you're going for a build that opens with Stalkers then Dark Templar openings are really good against any sort of Gateway all-in or Gateway pressure. Photon Overcharge will usually buy just enough time for the Dark Shrine and Warpgate Research to finish. You may well lose Probes whilst your Dark Templar clean up the opponent's forces, but you should also be able to prevent them from ever getting detection. I guess the only real thing to look out for is a proxy Robotics Facility out on the map somewhere.
The 2 times I went dts they had an observer after photon was done, made by a robo outside my base, I guess zealot sentry should work then but I need to scout after gate.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yep proxy robo is the correct reaction from the 3gate player. Since you should be able to afford ~7 stalkers along with the msc while doing this, ideally (i think) you still stand a fighting chance, especially since he will have no probes and won't have while you can pull a few.
edit: oh yeah i forgot to mention, i always 13 scout. It just feels really reliable to me.
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On September 30 2014 2255 Teoita wrote:
Yep proxy robo is the correct reaction from the 3gate player. Since you should be able to afford ~7 stalkers along with the msc while doing this, ideally (i think) you still stand a fighting chance, especially since he will have no probes and won't have while you can pull a few.
edit: oh yeah i forgot to mention, i always 13 scout. It just feels really reliable to me.
Well they have 16 on mineral and 3 on gas.
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Italy12246 Posts
I was assuming you'd deny mining with a DT. If he is proxying a robo he can't defend his mineral line.
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On October 01 2014 01:13 Teoita wrote:
I was assuming you'd deny mining with a DT. If he is proxying a robo he can't defend his mineral line.
Oh you meant that, nope he just calls the probe to his army and I can't fight him cause he has a milion zealots+ some stalkers and I have 2 stalkers and 1 dt at home
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Italy12246 Posts
Really, he goes 10gate 3gate, has to wait until ~7 minutes until your nexus cannon finishes at which point you can warp in dts while, as i said, still being able to afford about 7 units along with the msc, he instantly builds a proxy robo, gets an observer, does not mine for about 40 seconds, and still has enough units to overwhelm your army and probes? Sounds like a sick build, do you have a replay?
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If you're going 3:40-3:50 dark shrine against a 10 gate, a very important move is to send your probe into his base at about 5:30 to get a pylon up asap. At 5:30, the second stalker will probably have already left his natural for a few seconds (at least on Overgrowth). Not getting a dt in his mineral line asap can cost you the game sometimes, which is why you want to be warping in dts inside his main as soon as your dark shrine finishes. If you do it right, you can pretty much have a dt in his mineral line at 6:30. And even if you're not THAT fast, there's a big difference between hitting close to 6:30 and close to 7:00.
As for a less gas-heavy build, that is to say, not going 6 probes on gas right away... I don't think going dts is that reliable. It can work, but I honestly don't think it's that safe. Back when I was running into 10 gates a lot on the ladder a few months ago, I went over possible ways to deal with this build with sc2john. My conclusion was that if you core scout on a 2 player map and only have a single gate against this build + about 200 gas, the best approach was to get a robo + msc + wg asap. One of these has to be delayed, but the msc is very important to get in order to have photon overcharge at 5:30. If I recall correctly, you make 2 stalkers, add another gateway (3 gates is too expensive), and chrono immortals like a mad man while warping in stalkers. I can't recall whether you chrono boost warp gate or not, 1-2 chronos might be fine... either that or warp in your first stalkers very defensively as photon overcharge will run out at about 6:30 if the other player is sharp. If the other player makes zealots, kiting with stalkers + immortals should do the trick.
I don't think I've tried this approach in a real game yet because I haven't run into a 10 gate ever since, and I haven't been playing much at all. But I did do a blatant 10 gate against a guy who got a pretty fast robo as a response and it was pretty close. I thought I was gonna lose, but his robo was somewhat exposed, which allowed me to pick it off at one point, and he messed up his unit production. I think he thought a single immortal was enough and didn't queue the second one or something... but yeah, he halted unit production for some reason and got what he deserved for it. 
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On October 01 2014 03:56 Teoita wrote:
Really, he goes 10gate 3gate, has to wait until ~7 minutes until your nexus cannon finishes at which point you can warp in dts while, as i said, still being able to afford about 7 units along with the msc, he instantly builds a proxy robo, gets an observer, does not mine for about 40 seconds, and still has enough units to overwhelm your army and probes? Sounds like a sick build, do you have a replay?
It's more like you have to use photon overcharge at 5:30 if the other player is really aggressive, which he should be. Either that, or you will inevitably lose probes and units in the process until you have enough energy for photon overcharge.
I think the 10 gating player is likely to have 8 stalkers if you send dts in really fast (6:30ish). If your dt arrives at like 7 minutes or so, he'll probably have 11 stalkers or so, depending on how he manages his gas.
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Italy12246 Posts
I guess i didn't explain myself correctly. I was already assuming you'd use overcharge to buy time for the dt's, that's why i'm talking about what happens at 7 minutes+, not 5-6.
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I'm really struggling with PvZ lately, as a top diamond protoss for reference. I've spent a lot of time trying to make stargate openings work, as I've seem some koreans do from time to time, but I have a lot of trouble making it work consistently. I've since tried to switch over to the 3 base blink style, and I'm looking for a refined build order, or tips on how to properly execute it.
Are you guys usually using this build? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/461621-sc2-notes-3-base-blink-attack-pvz) with any variations to it? Furthermore, do you then always go gate first in PvZ? I would tend to 15 nexus into gate a lot and get away with it. Is it standard to transition into this style from that, or from forge first type opening as well for that matter.
When taking your third, do you do it the same or close to every game? Do you always go for some light pressure and then recall before taking it? What happens if you get hit with a wave of lings when your moving out to take your third with your little ball of sentries before they can get to cover between your nexus and mineral patches? and therefore should you make sure to move out with a certain unit ball (# of sentries) when taking your third? Any help is much appreciated.
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If you use to buy time for dts, which is the natural response, it runs out at 6:30. So by the time you can effectively deny mining time - and that's if you did a dt rush (3:40-3:50) -, he will be back again with more units than you. Did I miss anything? Because when I do that, I personally get a defensive dt too, which further reduces my stalker count... but it's fine since I end up winning anyway. However, if you didn't get a super fast dark shrine, you will not even have dts available by the time photon overcharge expires. So if he infers you have a dark shrine correctly and gets a proxxy robo quickly enough, I guess you're dead?
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Italy12246 Posts
You can still buy some time without overcharge. As i said, it's not a pretty situation, but in my opinion it's playable. Proxy robo is the best way to play against it, but even then you can win by denying mining/killing pylons with one dt while holding with your own dts/stalkers/probes. Going twilight council as your first stalker is building is, again in my own personal experience, fast enough.
Also as i posted earlier, it's not the only way, and im sure a more defensive/economical 3gate would be able to hold, just like a properly executed defensive 3gate/4gate could hold aggressive 4gates in wol.
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On October 01 2014 04:36 Entropy137 wrote:
I'm really struggling with PvZ lately, as a top diamond protoss for reference. I've spent a lot of time trying to make stargate openings work, as I've seem some koreans do from time to time, but I have a lot of trouble making it work consistently. I've since tried to switch over to the 3 base blink style, and I'm looking for a refined build order, or tips on how to properly execute it.
Are you guys usually using this build? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/461621-sc2-notes-3-base-blink-attack-pvz) with any variations to it? Furthermore, do you then always go gate first in PvZ? I would tend to 15 nexus into gate a lot and get away with it. Is it standard to transition into this style from that, or from forge first type opening as well for that matter.
When taking your third, do you do it the same or close to every game? Do you always go for some light pressure and then recall before taking it? What happens if you get hit with a wave of lings when your moving out to take your third with your little ball of sentries before they can get to cover between your nexus and mineral patches? and therefore should you make sure to move out with a certain unit ball (# of sentries) when taking your third? Any help is much appreciated.
Hey, there are some notes on this build from a couple of pages ago from me and Teoita.
I do 15 nexus 15 gateway, and it seems quite solid for our purposes, and I think this is the refined way to do it, rather than the more aggressive MsC expand. Note that there is a meta use of FFE on Nimbus due to the danger of speed all-ins.
As for the aggressive moveout, I always do it after securing my 3rd, starting with 10 sentries (this was how sOs did it in Code S ro32, recently Protosses has opted for more corner-cutting and trickery, but it hasn't served them very well. Get between 8-10 sentries and you have enough for constant hallucinations and scouting) and 1 stalker. The reason is that if I start to fumble with my aggression, I would definitely fail to get my 3rd nexus down between 7-8 minutes, which is what you want. It also becomes easy to cancel it while you move around with your relatively immobile sentry force.
As for getting caught with too few sentries. You can affort to send a hallucination as you move out, so you can send it along the attack path to your opponents natural. Most likely this phoenix will scout whether there is any threat to your sentries. If he hides a counter-attack near your base, it means that he's made the lings quite a bit earlier, which is just really good for you. Use pylons along the ledge of your main to have more places to reinforce your units. I usually move out with 5-6 sentries. It is possible to sneak your nexus up a little bit earlier with only the cover of your MsC, and then move out as you're able to warp in a round.
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Italy12246 Posts
In general you should only move out after the wall+cannon at your third nexus is set up, so that a ling runby can not force a cancel unless it's a TON of lings. As Toko posted, that's scoutable with a hallucination.
My personal preference on 3base blink builds is kind of non standard, but:
1) i LOVE opening FFE because fuck playing against 3hatch before pool 15 hatch and all that crap. If you go 3base blink the really fast warpgate/tech that gateway fe gives you isn't all that useful anyway, and i'd rather have the potential to cannon rush silly openings (which really doesnt happen because im opening FFE in the first place).
2) When you do your quick/unpredictable move outs before +2 and blink i think it might be worth it to invest in a round of 3-4 zealots. Having only sentries gives you zero dps, so i feel like a zerg can basically just ignore that.
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Hey Teo, I've been trying to get a grip on Zest's version of the big boy build but have been losing a bunch to a friend of mine lately. I don't want to straight up blind counter CC first/3 CC, but adapt the build based on my scouting. Would you mind giving me some tips?
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5472954
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5471204
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5470638
I feel like the biggest problem I'm having is just not paying enough attention to my Colossus production + additional gateways leading me to crumble in the mid game.
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EPT
