Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
On September 05 2014 23:43 Teoita wrote: It looked simple enough to replicate tbh. Also, please do not just ask for a BO in this thread.
where can I ask it then? I haven't seen it live.
Tbh your best bet is just to study the vod at least a bit and open a [D] thread. Frankly, this forum is for discussin things, not for asking things that you can't be bothered to find yourself. Besides, frankly, you are good enough to copy a bo from a vod on your own.
Yea but where can I watch the vod? It's GSL, that's why I asked, but no problem.
On September 08 2014 17:52 Teoita wrote: Oh, the youtube GSL korean channel has free vods of every match, i thought everyone knew that by now. Here's a link to the game you asked:
There is nothing in this game that I despise more than mutas. Nothing that seems more skilless and free win than mutas. If you have perfect scouting/timing and had some kind of an advantage beforehand, then sure, maybe you can push across the map and win. But, if the game is even at all, I don't understand how one wins if they make the decision to simply make mutas.
I hate phoenixes in P vs Z. I hate the phoenix almost as much as I hate mutas. I don't understand how phoenixes counter mutas, when making phoenixes means your ground army is "non existent" and zerg is free to take a ridiculous amount of expos. Do phoenix really counter mutas, when, in theory, even if this were true, the exchange zerg is making is simply throwing away some resources in units so they can drastically out mine you and buy time to switch compositions to something better than yours, and something they can afford to do. Meanwhile, you're stuck with phoenixes providing you nothing, and you probably took some direct economical damage to add insult to injury.
I just don't understand how phoenixes counter mutas in any meaningful way, especially when corrupters can zone out phoenixes, to even add questions to whether phoenixes can even kill mutas to begin with, let alone factoring in what going mutas allows zerg to do. What are the goals when going phoenix? How many are you trying to make? When do you know to go for an attack? When do you know to take a fourth? Etc, etc. It all seems very mysterious to me. Largely because every decision seems like a horrible one since they all involve having phoenixes, in the first place.
Bit harsh? Except for the "skill-less and free win" - part.
Anyways. Cant comment on the Phoenix vs Muta/Corrupter dynamic (except for build phoenix or die), but I strongly recommend to watch http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-415-stopping-mutalisks-in-pvz/ Obviously the compositional component of stalker + ht has changed but the overarching concepts of vision, positioning, counterpressure stay true to this day. Back then that daily was like an epiphany to me.
How do you open against an unknown proxy in PvP? I scout double gas and no second pylon, so it's obviously going to be either proxy oracle or a hidden TC for blink or dts. How should I alter my build in this case?
How do you deal with 14/14 speedling when opening msc expand in PvZ? I've been trying to just do my build normally, get a forge in my wall, and hold with cannons/sentries, but my wall always gets busted down and I don't have the minerals to plug the holes. Do I just play conservatively and 2-gate or 3-gate expand? Or can I hold a low-ground wall off of one gate + msc?
On September 09 2014 04:44 Kovaz wrote: How do you open against an unknown proxy in PvP? I scout double gas and no second pylon, so it's obviously going to be either proxy oracle or a hidden TC for blink or dts. How should I alter my build in this case?
How do you deal with 14/14 speedling when opening msc expand in PvZ? I've been trying to just do my build normally, get a forge in my wall, and hold with cannons/sentries, but my wall always gets busted down and I don't have the minerals to plug the holes. Do I just play conservatively and 2-gate or 3-gate expand? Or can I hold a low-ground wall off of one gate + msc?
Someone posted a video of Nony explaining how to deal with 14-14 speedlings in this very thread a while ago. I think it was Sated, but I'm not sure. The person also posted a replay at the time.
On September 09 2014 04:44 Kovaz wrote: How do you open against an unknown proxy in PvP? I scout double gas and no second pylon, so it's obviously going to be either proxy oracle or a hidden TC for blink or dts. How should I alter my build in this case?
It depends on what your original plan was to begin with. If your original plan was Blink, you could open with 3 Stalkers before tech building and poke around with the Stalkers to figure out what it is. If it was Stargate, you could go for an immediate Stargate and Phoenix as soon as the Cybernetics Core is done, which offers very fast scouting and kinda outright wins against Proxy Oracle.
How do you deal with 14/14 speedling when opening msc expand in PvZ? I've been trying to just do my build normally, get a forge in my wall, and hold with cannons/sentries, but my wall always gets busted down and I don't have the minerals to plug the holes. Do I just play conservatively and 2-gate or 3-gate expand? Or can I hold a low-ground wall off of one gate + msc?
Typically when people see gas before hatch they will run a slower expand, because it's not like it makes much sense for them to get the gas that early unless they are planning some kind of aggression. Granted it could be super meta and just not mine from it as soon as they push your probe away, but I think you just have to assume aggression and expand with more production.
On September 09 2014 04:44 Kovaz wrote: How do you deal with 14/14 speedling when opening msc expand in PvZ? I've been trying to just do my build normally, get a forge in my wall, and hold with cannons/sentries, but my wall always gets busted down and I don't have the minerals to plug the holes. Do I just play conservatively and 2-gate or 3-gate expand? Or can I hold a low-ground wall off of one gate + msc?
Can you post a replay? I want to see what your reaction was.
Assuming you 9 or 13 scout on 2 player map, you can rally your 15/16th probe to your natural and your scouting probe will determine if you can make your 2nd pylon on your lowground or not. if its 14/14 then make 2nd pylon at your natural so you can make forge immediately as part of your wall. You can even wait for lowground pylon to finish so you can make both cyber core and forge as wall. Let your first zealot finish to prevent the first 6 lings from killing your cannon/pylon. Then expand and complete the wall off.
If possible, don't let your scouting probe die and try to identify expansion at 4 minute mark. If no expand then its probably a bane bust. Regardless, after holding 14/14 you should make a few sentries to be safe and then tech from there.
I can't tell you much about 3/4 player maps because I only open FFE on those :\
On September 09 2014 09:19 Magnet wrote: It depends on what your original plan was to begin with. If your original plan was Blink, you could open with 3 Stalkers before tech building and poke around with the Stalkers to figure out what it is. If it was Stargate, you could go for an immediate Stargate and Phoenix as soon as the Cybernetics Core is done, which offers very fast scouting and kinda outright wins against Proxy Oracle.
Wouldn't both of those die to dts? On 2 player maps I am usually able to scout the lack of pylons before I throw down my tech, so I feel as through I should be able to get a good read on his build and counter it. My response has generally been 3 stalker rush into tech and poking around with stalkers + msc to try to find his proxy. I've very rarely seen anything but oracle or dts in this situation, but I feel like there isn't a good choice that's safe against both. Robo puts me behind against stargate, and if I open oracle and leave it at home it doesn't do much to help defend an oracle or pressure if he expands. Anything else has no detection so I die to dts.
On September 09 2014 09:19 Magnet wrote: Typically when people see gas before hatch they will run a slower expand, because it's not like it makes much sense for them to get the gas that early unless they are planning some kind of aggression. Granted it could be super meta and just not mine from it as soon as they push your probe away, but I think you just have to assume aggression and expand with more production.
Yeah I've been trying old-school 3-gate expand in this situation, but I feel like it puts me too far behind economically. It feels like holding the low ground could be possible, so if that's something that can reliably be done I'd like to do that, but I can't tell if it is. I get that people generally play safer against gas before hatch, I'm more wondering if 1 gate nexus can be safe enough.
On September 09 2014 10:21 Xinzoe wrote: Can you post a replay? I want to see what your reaction was.
Assuming you 9 or 13 scout on 2 player map, you can rally your 15/16th probe to your natural and your scouting probe will determine if you can make your 2nd pylon on your lowground or not. if its 14/14 then make 2nd pylon at your natural so you can make forge immediately as part of your wall. You can even wait for lowground pylon to finish so you can make both cyber core and forge as wall. Let your first zealot finish to prevent the first 6 lings from killing your cannon/pylon. Then expand and complete the wall off.
If possible, don't let your scouting probe die and try to identify expansion at 4 minute mark. If no expand then its probably a bane bust. Regardless, after holding 14/14 you should make a few sentries to be safe and then tech from there.
I can't tell you much about 3/4 player maps because I only open FFE on those :\
I'm not sure what good a replay will do. My mistake-filled play doesn't really have any bearing on whether a well-executed 1gate expand can defend well-executed 14/14 speedling aggression. I'm only asking about the ideal execution, so I know whether it's worthwhile to spend time refining that build, or if I should just abandon it and do FFE or a later expand.
I usually put my third pylon at the low ground. I've never felt like I have that many excess minerals that it delays my forge when doing it this way. I'm usually pretty starved for minerals at that moment since I just also started my nexus, msc, third pylon, second gas, and warpgate all at once.
On September 09 2014 09:19 Magnet wrote: It depends on what your original plan was to begin with. If your original plan was Blink, you could open with 3 Stalkers before tech building and poke around with the Stalkers to figure out what it is. If it was Stargate, you could go for an immediate Stargate and Phoenix as soon as the Cybernetics Core is done, which offers very fast scouting and kinda outright wins against Proxy Oracle.
Wouldn't both of those die to dts? On 2 player maps I am usually able to scout the lack of pylons before I throw down my tech, so I feel as through I should be able to get a good read on his build and counter it. My response has generally been 3 stalker rush into tech and poking around with stalkers + msc to try to find his proxy. I've very rarely seen anything but oracle or dts in this situation, but I feel like there isn't a good choice that's safe against both. Robo puts me behind against stargate, and if I open oracle and leave it at home it doesn't do much to help defend an oracle or pressure if he expands. Anything else has no detection so I die to dts.
On September 09 2014 09:19 Magnet wrote: Typically when people see gas before hatch they will run a slower expand, because it's not like it makes much sense for them to get the gas that early unless they are planning some kind of aggression. Granted it could be super meta and just not mine from it as soon as they push your probe away, but I think you just have to assume aggression and expand with more production.
Yeah I've been trying old-school 3-gate expand in this situation, but I feel like it puts me too far behind economically. It feels like holding the low ground could be possible, so if that's something that can reliably be done I'd like to do that, but I can't tell if it is. I get that people generally play safer against gas before hatch, I'm more wondering if 1 gate nexus can be safe enough.
On September 09 2014 10:21 Xinzoe wrote: Can you post a replay? I want to see what your reaction was.
Assuming you 9 or 13 scout on 2 player map, you can rally your 15/16th probe to your natural and your scouting probe will determine if you can make your 2nd pylon on your lowground or not. if its 14/14 then make 2nd pylon at your natural so you can make forge immediately as part of your wall. You can even wait for lowground pylon to finish so you can make both cyber core and forge as wall. Let your first zealot finish to prevent the first 6 lings from killing your cannon/pylon. Then expand and complete the wall off.
If possible, don't let your scouting probe die and try to identify expansion at 4 minute mark. If no expand then its probably a bane bust. Regardless, after holding 14/14 you should make a few sentries to be safe and then tech from there.
I can't tell you much about 3/4 player maps because I only open FFE on those :\
I'm not sure what good a replay will do. My mistake-filled play doesn't really have any bearing on whether a well-executed 1gate expand can defend well-executed 14/14 speedling aggression. I'm only asking about the ideal execution, so I know whether it's worthwhile to spend time refining that build, or if I should just abandon it and do FFE or a later expand.
I usually put my third pylon at the low ground. I've never felt like I have that many excess minerals that it delays my forge when doing it this way. I'm usually pretty starved for minerals at that moment since I just also started my nexus, msc, third pylon, second gas, and warpgate all at once.
From my experience, based on my own play and more importantly from MC-es stream, you can do 1 gate expand normaly vs 14/14 opening. Only needed adjustment is that you start MSC beffore the nexus and you put 3rd pylon on low ground not the second one. 1 zealot and wall off at ramp will prevent speedlings run by and second unit should be a sentry so that you have 1 FF if needed just in case. After that you can proceede to play preatty much normal, wall off natural with 2-3rd gate and forge, you also have enaugh zealots at your dissposal so that all speedling attackes are trading badly for your zerg oponent.
Historically, the MsC expand usually suggested the possibility of a quick 4gate, 4gate Void Ray, fast DT's or some Naniwa-esque Immortal zealot all-in. If you're not prepared to do those builds, I think that the two recently used builds are better in PvZ. (Reference, GOM Exp Korea YT) By better, I mean that you take an instant economic risk with the MsC expand, Zerg can afford to overcompensate their defense in order to stay alive. In contrast, Nexus Gate or Gate Nexus expands are inherently economically competitive, which makes mistakes Zergs do a lot more impactful, and gives you more options for punishing mistakes.
Rain did a 13 Gate, 17 Nexus, 1st Pylon on Ramp, 2nd on Natural Wall, Cybercore on Natural Wall when 2nd Pylon finishes.
I think Zest and sOs does a 15 Nexus, 15 Gateway, 1st Pylon behind minerals, 2nd at Ramp -> Cyber, 3rd at Natural Wall -> Forge.
If you scout gas, I think both builds can finish their natural wall by 5:30 with Cybercore-Gate-(Gate) (Rain) and Forge-Gate-(Gate) (sOs)
I used to go MsC expand exclusively, but eventually got tired of losing everything on my low ground to speedlings. (My fault probably)
Do note that Rain only did 13 Gate, 17 Nexus only after he already scouted that Zerg did 15 hatch -> 15 pool no gas. If he scouted 14pool -> 14 hatch like the previous question was asked i am more than sure that he would have completed the wall off at top of his ramp. Nexus beffore the core and after gate is always only a compensation if oponent opens very eco-gready but safe vs early pool openings becasue it gives you option to finish wall at top of ramp if needed.
You can't scout hatch vs pool first with a reasonable opener on most maps in time to commit to getting a gas or going gassless. Even 9scout would probably take too long, and it's extremely uneconomical to go for it to the point where even FFE these days scouts later. Both builds (msc expand and gassless expand) can be safe vs everything, and both are just a matter of personal preference and, in the case of pros, preparation. Scouting has nothing to do with which build is chosen. Safety vs any kind of mass ling bullshit simply comes from a) walling your ramp and b) being active with a probe (which isnt common at the pro level because 14/14 is extremely rare). In fact, the old PvZ guide details at length how to play a gassless gateway opener vs all kinds of cheeses and all-ins.
The only exception is on maps with dumb naturals like Deadwing, Foxtrot Labs and to a lesser extend Nimbus, where you can't cover your wall with a Photon Overcharge. In those cases i highly doubt that every msc expand is safe against every kind of speedling stupidity, so i personally just FFE there. I'm quite sure that just playing a safe msc expand>3gate without cutting units should be enough to hold anything though, since that's kind of what we did for all of 2010 and early 2011 in WoL anyway.
I'm not sure what good a replay will do. My mistake-filled play doesn't really have any bearing on whether a well-executed 1gate expand can defend well-executed 14/14 speedling aggression. I'm only asking about the ideal execution, so I know whether it's worthwhile to spend time refining that build, or if I should just abandon it and do FFE or a later expand.
I usually put my third pylon at the low ground. I've never felt like I have that many excess minerals that it delays my forge when doing it this way. I'm usually pretty starved for minerals at that moment since I just also started my nexus, msc, third pylon, second gas, and warpgate all at once.
?? If u put 2nd pylon and cyber core at low ground then thats 250 minerals less u have to invest into your wall
EPT
