EPTWhen you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that?
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 286
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On August 15 2014 22:52 Helikptrfisk wrote: I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking. When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that? Use your phoenix to go over and kill him. Phoenix beat voidrays for production time. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 15 2014 22:52 Helikptrfisk wrote: I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking. When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that? Make more phoenix. Phoenix, being cheaper, trade quite well against void rays, especially with the range upgrade, and they build faster. Phoenix kill phoenix very quickly, but voids and phoenix kill each other slowly. You should, after getting a much higher phoenix count, just be able to swoop in, pick off all his phoenix with your vastly superior count, and then kite the voids to oblivion. Just go up to a higher stargate count and keep pumping those phoenix. Also, air upgrades matter a lot. In general, in a phoenix vs. phoenix mirror, as long as you're scouting appropriately and pressuring correctly, your opponent can't switch out of phoenix without you punishing and killing him. If he manages a switch, that's your mistake. The switch can eventually occur safely, once you're on 3-4 bases with tons of cannons everywhere, but nobody wants to do that because if you build a ton of cannons to be safe, your opponent just expands and skips cannons, cannons don't help you attack. Void rays are a lousy choice for a switch out of phoenix though, better off going into archons/storm or tempest. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On August 16 2014 03:41 OPDream wrote: how do you beat fast viper cheese? You obviously have to costantly scout in PvZ, it's more important than in any other matchup. Use either real or hallucinated phoenixes, although if you just want to scout the hive timing you can even simply park an observer close to it (in most of the games the zerg player never notices it). Hive takes 100 seconds to morph, + vipers take 40 seconds to build, + 1 minute more to absorb the energy and cross the map. Overall you have about 3 minutes of time to prepare, which is more than enough to get both the twilight council (which you should already have at that point anyway, unless you're playing void ray colossi) AND the templar archives. If you have enough high templars to feedback all his vipers, which you should be able to since they already spawn with 1 feedback and you can immediately warp them in once the templar archives finishes, it all comes down to micro. Just be patient and try to keep track of the vipers' positioning (revelation helps a lot) , always keep your hts close to your colossi. Another thing that works very well is hallucinating a lot of colossi. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On August 15 2014 23:10 Whitewing wrote: Make more phoenix. Phoenix, being cheaper, trade quite well against void rays, especially with the range upgrade, and they build faster. Phoenix kill phoenix very quickly, but voids and phoenix kill each other slowly. You should, after getting a much higher phoenix count, just be able to swoop in, pick off all his phoenix with your vastly superior count, and then kite the voids to oblivion. Just go up to a higher stargate count and keep pumping those phoenix. Also, air upgrades matter a lot. In general, in a phoenix vs. phoenix mirror, as long as you're scouting appropriately and pressuring correctly, your opponent can't switch out of phoenix without you punishing and killing him. If he manages a switch, that's your mistake. The switch can eventually occur safely, once you're on 3-4 bases with tons of cannons everywhere, but nobody wants to do that because if you build a ton of cannons to be safe, your opponent just expands and skips cannons, cannons don't help you attack. Void rays are a lousy choice for a switch out of phoenix though, better off going into archons/storm or tempest. This question is a bit weird. If you look up counters to specific units you will find phoenix counter voidray. If someone goes for voids and you go mass phoenix you should win. Just dont engage the overcharge. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
On August 16 2014 05:48 KingAlphard wrote: You obviously have to costantly scout in PvZ, it's more important than in any other matchup. Use either real or hallucinated phoenixes, although if you just want to scout the hive timing you can even simply park an observer close to it (in most of the games the zerg player never notices it). Hive takes 100 seconds to morph, + vipers take 40 seconds to build, + 1 minute more to absorb the energy and cross the map. Overall you have about 3 minutes of time to prepare, which is more than enough to get both the twilight council (which you should already have at that point anyway, unless you're playing void ray colossi) AND the templar archives. If you have enough high templars to feedback all his vipers, which you should be able to since they already spawn with 1 feedback and you can immediately warp them in once the templar archives finishes, it all comes down to micro. Just be patient and try to keep track of the vipers' positioning (revelation helps a lot) , always keep your hts close to your colossi. Another thing that works very well is hallucinating a lot of colossi. what time does a "viper cheese" hit? and with what supporting units. If you are referring to a 15 min viper timing then you need to make sure that you have 2 HT out by then. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 16 2014 06:04 Mojito99 wrote: what time does a "viper cheese" hit? and with what supporting units. If you are referring to a 15 min viper timing then you need to make sure that you have 2 HT out by then. yea theres no such thing as "viper cheese," vipers are built as a counter to colossus... how on earth can a 10+ minute reactive tech counter be "cheese" | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD? | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote: im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra. @KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD? A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote: A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing. 9min hive | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote: Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down. I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2014 00:36 OPDream wrote: I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times. The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On August 17 2014 04:57 Whitewing wrote: The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units. Not really, 13:30 roach hydra viper hits with 4 bases and +2, and it's a 9-minute hive. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 17 2014 05:55 Alchemik wrote: Not really, 13:30 roach hydra viper hits with 4 bases and +2, and it's a 9-minute hive. The base count doesn't matter, the drone count does. There's a big difference in 66 and 80 drones, and it heavily impacts remax potential. Having only +2 weapons upgrade also isn't that big a deal, and if he's got 2/2, his unit count will be a bit smaller. If you're scouting appropriately for the hive, you should be able to get templar for feedback in time vs. a 13:00 or 13:30 timing. If it comes sooner, just having a lot of units should be good enough. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On August 17 2014 05:59 Whitewing wrote: The base count doesn't matter, the drone count does. There's a big difference in 66 and 80 drones, and it heavily impacts remax potential. Having only +2 weapons upgrade also isn't that big a deal, and if he's got 2/2, his unit count will be a bit smaller. If you're scouting appropriately for the hive, you should be able to get templar for feedback in time vs. a 13:00 or 13:30 timing. If it comes sooner, just having a lot of units should be good enough. Alright, 8 gas, so 72 drones. You don't really need more to remax on roach hydra. And well, noone goes for double evo with roach hydra.  And yeah, obviously it's pretty easily countered, not saying otherise. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On August 17 2014 06:08 Teoita wrote: There is no way in hell you can be maxed at 13:30 with hive, +2, roach/hydra/viper, AND a fully saturated fourth. Either the zerg hits a full minute later (which isnt the point of this discussion), or doesnt have a 4th (and in fact, viper rushes often skip upgrades altogether). Not "fully saturated", but 6 drones. And HyuN's 13:30 roach/hydra/viper hits with exactly that. Pretty easy to execute. | ||
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