• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:29
CEST 01:29
KST 08:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris34Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
BoxeR's Wings Episode 2 - Fan Translation Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time A Eulogy for the Six Pool Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away
Tourneys
$5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Post ASL20 Ro24 discussion. No Rain in ASL20? How do I speak directly to Coinbase?1-(888)-419-97 Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group D [ASL20] Ro24 Group E Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1026 users

The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 286

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 284 285 286 287 288 367 Next
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
Helikptrfisk
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden35 Posts
August 15 2014 13:52 GMT
#5701
I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking.

When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that?
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
August 15 2014 14:10 GMT
#5702
On August 15 2014 22:52 Helikptrfisk wrote:
I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking.

When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that?

Use your phoenix to go over and kill him. Phoenix beat voidrays for production time.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-15 14:24:55
August 15 2014 14:10 GMT
#5703
On August 15 2014 22:52 Helikptrfisk wrote:
I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking.

When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that?


Make more phoenix. Phoenix, being cheaper, trade quite well against void rays, especially with the range upgrade, and they build faster. Phoenix kill phoenix very quickly, but voids and phoenix kill each other slowly. You should, after getting a much higher phoenix count, just be able to swoop in, pick off all his phoenix with your vastly superior count, and then kite the voids to oblivion. Just go up to a higher stargate count and keep pumping those phoenix. Also, air upgrades matter a lot.

In general, in a phoenix vs. phoenix mirror, as long as you're scouting appropriately and pressuring correctly, your opponent can't switch out of phoenix without you punishing and killing him. If he manages a switch, that's your mistake. The switch can eventually occur safely, once you're on 3-4 bases with tons of cannons everywhere, but nobody wants to do that because if you build a ton of cannons to be safe, your opponent just expands and skips cannons, cannons don't help you attack.

Void rays are a lousy choice for a switch out of phoenix though, better off going into archons/storm or tempest.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
August 15 2014 18:41 GMT
#5704
how do you beat fast viper cheese?
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
August 15 2014 20:48 GMT
#5705
On August 16 2014 03:41 OPDream wrote:
how do you beat fast viper cheese?


You obviously have to costantly scout in PvZ, it's more important than in any other matchup. Use either real or hallucinated phoenixes, although if you just want to scout the hive timing you can even simply park an observer close to it (in most of the games the zerg player never notices it).
Hive takes 100 seconds to morph, + vipers take 40 seconds to build, + 1 minute more to absorb the energy and cross the map. Overall you have about 3 minutes of time to prepare, which is more than enough to get both the twilight council (which you should already have at that point anyway, unless you're playing void ray colossi) AND the templar archives.

If you have enough high templars to feedback all his vipers, which you should be able to since they already spawn with 1 feedback and you can immediately warp them in once the templar archives finishes, it all comes down to micro.

Just be patient and try to keep track of the vipers' positioning (revelation helps a lot) , always keep your hts close to your colossi.

Another thing that works very well is hallucinating a lot of colossi.
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
August 15 2014 21:02 GMT
#5706
On August 15 2014 23:10 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2014 22:52 Helikptrfisk wrote:
I only play protoss in 2v2 so my knowlegde is a bit lacking.

When you find yourself in a phoenix vs phoenix war and your opponent switches over to void-rays, how do I punish that?


Make more phoenix. Phoenix, being cheaper, trade quite well against void rays, especially with the range upgrade, and they build faster. Phoenix kill phoenix very quickly, but voids and phoenix kill each other slowly. You should, after getting a much higher phoenix count, just be able to swoop in, pick off all his phoenix with your vastly superior count, and then kite the voids to oblivion. Just go up to a higher stargate count and keep pumping those phoenix. Also, air upgrades matter a lot.

In general, in a phoenix vs. phoenix mirror, as long as you're scouting appropriately and pressuring correctly, your opponent can't switch out of phoenix without you punishing and killing him. If he manages a switch, that's your mistake. The switch can eventually occur safely, once you're on 3-4 bases with tons of cannons everywhere, but nobody wants to do that because if you build a ton of cannons to be safe, your opponent just expands and skips cannons, cannons don't help you attack.

Void rays are a lousy choice for a switch out of phoenix though, better off going into archons/storm or tempest.


This question is a bit weird.

If you look up counters to specific units you will find phoenix counter voidray. If someone goes for voids and you go mass phoenix you should win. Just dont engage the overcharge.
Mojito99
Profile Joined October 2013
Germany154 Posts
August 15 2014 21:04 GMT
#5707
On August 16 2014 05:48 KingAlphard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2014 03:41 OPDream wrote:
how do you beat fast viper cheese?


You obviously have to costantly scout in PvZ, it's more important than in any other matchup. Use either real or hallucinated phoenixes, although if you just want to scout the hive timing you can even simply park an observer close to it (in most of the games the zerg player never notices it).
Hive takes 100 seconds to morph, + vipers take 40 seconds to build, + 1 minute more to absorb the energy and cross the map. Overall you have about 3 minutes of time to prepare, which is more than enough to get both the twilight council (which you should already have at that point anyway, unless you're playing void ray colossi) AND the templar archives.

If you have enough high templars to feedback all his vipers, which you should be able to since they already spawn with 1 feedback and you can immediately warp them in once the templar archives finishes, it all comes down to micro.

Just be patient and try to keep track of the vipers' positioning (revelation helps a lot) , always keep your hts close to your colossi.

Another thing that works very well is hallucinating a lot of colossi.


what time does a "viper cheese" hit? and with what supporting units.
If you are referring to a 15 min viper timing then you need to make sure that you have 2 HT out by then.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
August 15 2014 22:18 GMT
#5708
On August 16 2014 06:04 Mojito99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2014 05:48 KingAlphard wrote:
On August 16 2014 03:41 OPDream wrote:
how do you beat fast viper cheese?


You obviously have to costantly scout in PvZ, it's more important than in any other matchup. Use either real or hallucinated phoenixes, although if you just want to scout the hive timing you can even simply park an observer close to it (in most of the games the zerg player never notices it).
Hive takes 100 seconds to morph, + vipers take 40 seconds to build, + 1 minute more to absorb the energy and cross the map. Overall you have about 3 minutes of time to prepare, which is more than enough to get both the twilight council (which you should already have at that point anyway, unless you're playing void ray colossi) AND the templar archives.

If you have enough high templars to feedback all his vipers, which you should be able to since they already spawn with 1 feedback and you can immediately warp them in once the templar archives finishes, it all comes down to micro.

Just be patient and try to keep track of the vipers' positioning (revelation helps a lot) , always keep your hts close to your colossi.

Another thing that works very well is hallucinating a lot of colossi.


what time does a "viper cheese" hit? and with what supporting units.
If you are referring to a 15 min viper timing then you need to make sure that you have 2 HT out by then.

yea theres no such thing as "viper cheese," vipers are built as a counter to colossus... how on earth can a 10+ minute reactive tech counter be "cheese"
TL+ Member
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 15 2014 23:16 GMT
#5709
Well some dedicated Viper rushes are pretty allinish (66 drones, no 4th, no upgrades), but i wouldnt call them cheese.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
August 16 2014 00:17 GMT
#5710
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 16 2014 15:17 GMT
#5711
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
August 16 2014 15:22 GMT
#5712
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 16 2014 15:25 GMT
#5713
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-16 16:14:43
August 16 2014 15:36 GMT
#5714
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.

I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 16 2014 19:57 GMT
#5715
On August 17 2014 00:36 OPDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.

I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times.


The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Alchemik
Profile Joined March 2014
Poland7124 Posts
August 16 2014 20:55 GMT
#5716
On August 17 2014 04:57 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 00:36 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.

I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times.


The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units.

Not really, 13:30 roach hydra viper hits with 4 bases and +2, and it's a 9-minute hive.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
August 16 2014 20:59 GMT
#5717
On August 17 2014 05:55 Alchemik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 04:57 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:36 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.

I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times.


The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units.

Not really, 13:30 roach hydra viper hits with 4 bases and +2, and it's a 9-minute hive.


The base count doesn't matter, the drone count does. There's a big difference in 66 and 80 drones, and it heavily impacts remax potential. Having only +2 weapons upgrade also isn't that big a deal, and if he's got 2/2, his unit count will be a bit smaller. If you're scouting appropriately for the hive, you should be able to get templar for feedback in time vs. a 13:00 or 13:30 timing. If it comes sooner, just having a lot of units should be good enough.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Alchemik
Profile Joined March 2014
Poland7124 Posts
August 16 2014 21:05 GMT
#5718
On August 17 2014 05:59 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2014 05:55 Alchemik wrote:
On August 17 2014 04:57 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:36 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:25 Whitewing wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:22 OPDream wrote:
On August 17 2014 00:17 Whitewing wrote:
On August 16 2014 09:17 OPDream wrote:
im referring to the 9min hive viper timing. Do you stop colossus production when you see quick hive? Personally, I stop making colossus to save gas for templar. Because you have to make slow zealots if you try to get both colossus and ht, and they are obviously garbage vs roach hydra.
@KingAlphard. Thanks for your respond, helps a lot. The hallucinating colossus idea is pretty cool~ I agree that it all comes down to micro, but I just suck at micro against viper, both blinding cloud and abduct. Some zerg even use fungal and blinding cloud together when they go for ultras, jesus fk... any tipsxD?


A 9 minute viper timing? I feel like you just make lots of gateway units and roll that over by having stuff. That's so much gas spent at that timing.

9min hive


Yeah, if your macro is on par you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. If you scout the hive (you should be scouting constantly), just throw down a templar archive when you see the hive. Usually that early I'd be more concerned with ultralisks than vipers, so I usually make a few immortals, but honestly just having enough stuff will shut that viper timing down.

I hope its that easy:S You can watch snute's pvz, he uses fast viper timing a lot of times.


The thing is, those kind of fast viper timings are on low drone counts and tend to have substantially less remax potential, and also hit on lesser upgrades for zerg (meaning toss upgrades will be on par or ahead). As long as you engage correct and carefully, you should be able to defend okay. This kind of build is designed to punish over-reliance on colossi with not enough gateway units.

Not really, 13:30 roach hydra viper hits with 4 bases and +2, and it's a 9-minute hive.


The base count doesn't matter, the drone count does. There's a big difference in 66 and 80 drones, and it heavily impacts remax potential. Having only +2 weapons upgrade also isn't that big a deal, and if he's got 2/2, his unit count will be a bit smaller. If you're scouting appropriately for the hive, you should be able to get templar for feedback in time vs. a 13:00 or 13:30 timing. If it comes sooner, just having a lot of units should be good enough.

Alright, 8 gas, so 72 drones. You don't really need more to remax on roach hydra.

And well, noone goes for double evo with roach hydra. And yeah, obviously it's pretty easily countered, not saying otherise.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 16 2014 21:08 GMT
#5719
There is no way in hell you can be maxed at 13:30 with hive, +2, roach/hydra/viper, AND a fully saturated fourth. Either the zerg hits a full minute later (which isnt the point of this discussion), or doesnt have a 4th (and in fact, viper rushes often skip upgrades altogether).
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Alchemik
Profile Joined March 2014
Poland7124 Posts
August 16 2014 21:13 GMT
#5720
On August 17 2014 06:08 Teoita wrote:
There is no way in hell you can be maxed at 13:30 with hive, +2, roach/hydra/viper, AND a fully saturated fourth. Either the zerg hits a full minute later (which isnt the point of this discussion), or doesnt have a 4th (and in fact, viper rushes often skip upgrades altogether).

Not "fully saturated", but 6 drones.
And HyuN's 13:30 roach/hydra/viper hits with exactly that. Pretty easy to execute.
Prev 1 284 285 286 287 288 367 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech122
CosmosSc2 48
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 727
Aegong 65
Purpose 17
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm25
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K560
taco 437
Foxcn251
fl0m53
Other Games
summit1g7309
tarik_tv2769
Grubby2133
shahzam483
Day[9].tv391
Sick367
C9.Mang0293
ViBE203
ToD196
Mew2King42
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV26
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 54
• RyuSc2 52
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• iopq 0
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21854
League of Legends
• Doublelift3907
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur190
Other Games
• imaqtpie1047
• Day9tv391
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
32m
LiuLi Cup
11h 32m
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
16h 32m
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
Big Brain Bouts
16h 32m
Iba vs GgMaChine
TriGGeR vs Bunny
Reynor vs Classic
Serral vs Clem
BSL Team Wars
19h 32m
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
19h 32m
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
Code For Giants Cup
23h 2m
SC Evo League
1d 12h
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
1d 16h
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 18h
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
Acropolis #4 - TS1
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.