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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On August 13 2014 07:54 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best That is correct: the idea is that by showing colossus you will discourage an scv pull, or the terran will aim for a higher viking count expecting you to go up to 5 colossus, and then pull their scvs too late.
Colossus are the main reason SCV pulls exist...
If you are going for a fake, why not fake only one C without thermal lance, no blink. It will give you storm infinitely faster, in time for any SCV pull.
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On August 13 2014 08:22 Mojito99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:54 Whitewing wrote:On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best That is correct: the idea is that by showing colossus you will discourage an scv pull, or the terran will aim for a higher viking count expecting you to go up to 5 colossus, and then pull their scvs too late. Colossus are the main reason SCV pulls exist... If you are going for a fake, why not fake only one C without thermal lance, no blink. It will give you storm infinitely faster, in time for any SCV pull.
Agree. Unless you've got some crazy mind games going on with a specific opponent I think you'll just die to an SCV pull.
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On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best
First of all, this was a specific request (2 colossi into storm). Second, I think you're overlooking several aspects of it.
Blink is not used to defend colossi at the 10 min mark. The purpose of fast blink is to give you mobility to deal with drops, snipe medivacs, etc. There will be no vikings to kill your colossi this early.
How do you expect to keep colossi alive vs 12 vikings? Well, here's the thing - that's a fuckton of vikings for just 2 colossi. I'm glad to see that many vikings. Terrans do this all the time nowadays - they see a colossus build and start making a whole bunch of vikings blindly. But you only have 2 colossi, which help in the midgame against bio and make you less vulnerable to widow mines while you establish a 3-base economy. Later on, you have both tech paths available.
The fact that you transition into storm doesn't make attack upgrades useless because you will have colossus tech available. Once you trade armies and reset the terran's viking count, you can build up a more sizeable colossus count (off of 1 or 2 robos depending on how far you are into the game) and have storm as an option to help kill vikings (in addition to just using it to kill bio as well).
If you think double forge is vulnerable and don't feel comfortable doing it, you can simply not do it. But I honestly don't know why people are so scared to go double forge. I have no problem dealing with midgame pressure with this build. It's actually funny because after the beginning of hots, pros started going single forge for quite a while, and because of that so many protoss players nowadays seem to believe that it's risky. But look at Zest and herO now, playing perfect macro games with the exact double forge build I mentioned.
The only difference between this build and what herO and Zest have been doing lately is the very early storm transition. And I don't think a third colossus is by any means essential in order to defend 3 bases. So this means you can add a templar archives as early as 10:00 (and I'm pretty sure you thought it was much later), which is incredibly fast for someone getting 2 ranged colossi. This means you can have storm ready by 13 minutes, and scv pulls tend to hit later than that because otherwise you're doing an scv pull with basically no vikings. Even if a push hits earlier, it's not like it's hard to stall for storm when you're getting it so fast. If anything, the goal of cutting colossi earlier is to make the storm transition safer while not having issues with widow mines in the midgame. I have yet to die to an scv pull with this storm transition, but with 5+ colossi... I've died quite a few times.
EDIT:
On August 13 2014 08:22 Mojito99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:54 Whitewing wrote:On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best That is correct: the idea is that by showing colossus you will discourage an scv pull, or the terran will aim for a higher viking count expecting you to go up to 5 colossus, and then pull their scvs too late. Colossus are the main reason SCV pulls exist... If you are going for a fake, why not fake only one C without thermal lance, no blink. It will give you storm infinitely faster, in time for any SCV pull.
If you think having storm avaiable at 12 minutes instead of 13 minutes is THAT important, go ahead and do that. But I don't buy it and I think I'm skilled enough to make do with 2 ranged colossi until there are enough vikings out to threaten me. Terrans will not have that many vikings before 13 minutes, because they also have to make a couple of medivacs.
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Thank you very much. This helps a lot. Actually I am in very low diamond (got just promoted jeah!^^) and I have not seen any scv pull yet. But what I have seen is a quadrillion vikings just for my two collosi, basically no medivacs and bio that dies very fast to my storms due to no heal + stim. I will stick to this build for now and start adjusting when the scv pulls start to become a problem. Anyway, thanks again vhapter.
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On August 13 2014 08:47 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best First of all, this was a specific request (2 colossi into storm). Second, I think you're overlooking several aspects of it. Blink is not used to defend colossi at the 10 min mark. The purpose of fast blink is to give you mobility to deal with drops, snipe medivacs, etc. There will be no vikings to kill your colossi this early. How do you expect to keep colossi alive vs 12 vikings? Well, here's the thing - that's a fuckton of vikings for just 2 colossi. I'm glad to see that many vikings. Terrans do this all the time nowadays - they see a colossus build and start making a whole bunch of vikings blindly. But you only have 2 colossi, which help in the midgame against bio and make you less vulnerable to widow mines while you establish a 3-base economy. Later on, you have both tech paths available. The fact that you transition into storm doesn't make attack upgrades useless because you will have colossus tech available. Once you trade armies and reset the terran's viking count, you can build up a more sizeable colossus count (off of 1 or 2 robos depending on how far you are into the game) and have storm as an option to help kill vikings (in addition to just using it to kill bio as well). If you think double forge is vulnerable and don't feel comfortable doing it, you can simply not do it. But I honestly don't know why people are so scared to go double forge. I have no problem dealing with midgame pressure with this build. It's actually funny because after the beginning of hots, pros started going single forge for quite a while, and because of that so many protoss players nowadays seem to believe that it's risky. But look at Zest and herO now, playing perfect macro games with the exact double forge build I mentioned. The only difference between this build and what herO and Zest have been doing lately is the very early storm transition. And I don't think a third colossus is by any means essential in order to defend 3 bases. So this means you can add a templar archives as early as 10:00 (and I'm pretty sure you thought it was much later), which is incredibly fast for someone getting 2 ranged colossi. This means you can have storm ready by 13 minutes, and scv pulls tend to hit later than that because otherwise you're doing an scv pull with basically no vikings. Even if a push hits earlier, it's not like it's hard to stall for storm when you're getting it so fast. If anything, the goal of cutting colossi earlier is to make the storm transition safer while not having issues with widow mines in the midgame. I have yet to die to an scv pull with this storm transition, but with 5+ colossi... I've died quite a few times. EDIT: Show nested quote +On August 13 2014 08:22 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 07:54 Whitewing wrote:On August 13 2014 07:40 Mojito99 wrote:On August 13 2014 05:03 vhapter wrote:On August 12 2014 23:25 Archiatrus wrote:
PvP Stargate opening: What do you build (first)?
Up until now I preferred voidrays. I went up to two with one in queue and crossed the map with zealot/sentry support and killed my opponent or at least killed his natural while taking my own. But there is one exception: unfortunately, if he opens phoenix it is a insta loss... and I dont like a opening where I have to pray for the right opening of my opponent. The only solution would be scouting his first phonix (in queue), but I dont think I can sneak into his base between a few seconds before he makes his tech choice and when I arrive at his base with my army. Please correct me if this is wrong. So the alternatives are oracle and phoenix. Imo every P opening should be oracle proof, which means the phoenix is left. But can you be aggressive with a Phoenix opening? And defending seems to be much harder too. So basicly my question is what do you build first in a Stargate opening and why? Or is robo/twilight just better?
PvT midgame after 1Gate FE: When what?
I do the 1Gate FE from the OP with a robo but then I get a little bit lost what to build when. My basic plan up until now is: get 2 collosi -> get some HT+storm -> get a few extra collosi -> lots of stalker/chargelots/a few archons to get 200 supply. The only problem is that I just build the tech buildings when I feel it is the right moment to do. But this leads sometimes to way too late HTs or way too few units to defend at the beginning. So can somebody write down a basic plan in what order and approximatly when I have to build the following:
add x gates (total y)
robo bay
twighlight council
forge(s)
third
gases at natural
The best think would be a something along the lines: "if natural is at full saturation -> start robo bay" or "+1/1 halfway done -> twilight".
Thank you Single gas (or better yet, read the CJherO 2 gas trick that I wrote a few posts ago) Nexus --> msc Second gas (if you're not doing herO's trick) --> pylon --> stalker --> [robo --> wg] OR [wg --> robo] ^ once your robo is done, make 4 observers, first one for scouting, the other 3 for spotting (or defensive if you see an early factory) +2 stalkers (pylon after third stalker... I won't be listing pylons now, but it's super important not to get supply blocked) 6:00-6:05 double gas at natural 6:50-7:10 twilight (blink asap) + robo bay (colossus asap) [double forge --> +2 gates] OR [+2 gates --> double forge] ^ whichever feels more comfortable, but don't forget to scout with your observer at this point too Once you have about 44 probes (2 bases properly saturated), cut probes in order to get infrastructure up (+3 gates when resources allow, and don't forge thermal lance) and units for defense. Chrono colossi and blink. Most pros chrono colossi and blink with this build until blink finishes and they have at least 2 colossi out, and then they shift their focus to forge upgrades. It's ok to resume worker production temporarily and go up to 19-20 probes on mineral in each base, then you can take a third and continue making probes in order to quickly saturate your third. Going over 20 probes on minerals in each base before starting your third is a bit overkill though. Start thermal lance before building a templar archives (basically, you build your templar archives instead of going up to 3+ colossi, so it's only a matter of when you get enough gas to build). If you're cutting colossi at 2, I suggest getting a warp prism. Most pros have been going up to 10 gates as soon as their third finishes, before taking geysers 5 and 6 (that is to say, with pure colossi builds though, so they can get a lot of units out asap). If you have an edge, it's generally safer to grab your geysers earlier, but you still want those gates up quickly. Feel free to add 2-4 gates at one point later. You can also add a second robo when you have enough spare gas. I don't have a specific time for charge with this build, but I don't delay it for too long. I generally go up to 12 stalkers and decide between making a few high templars and starting charge. In theory, you can start charge as soon as blink finishes though, which is pretty early... anyway, this really depends on how you you manage your gas income. I think it's a good idea to start charge no later than 11:30-12:00 though. a quick transition to HT is very very vulnerable to SCV pulls. Anything below 5 Colossus before the transition is very risky. I dont quite understand the gameplan here. You commit heavily to blink which is only good to save your colossus, but how do you expect to keep them alive vs 12+ vikings with only 3 available. You also commit to double forge but then transition into tech which does not benefit of the double upgrades (storm). All in all this seems extremely vulnerable to every sort of pressure Terran put on because you commit to both double upgrades and fast tech. This gameplan will most definitely die to SCV pulls before storm is out - your storm choice is not even a colossus fake or something like that so it may not even be ready for 1/1 pulls or so. something to think about best That is correct: the idea is that by showing colossus you will discourage an scv pull, or the terran will aim for a higher viking count expecting you to go up to 5 colossus, and then pull their scvs too late. Colossus are the main reason SCV pulls exist... If you are going for a fake, why not fake only one C without thermal lance, no blink. It will give you storm infinitely faster, in time for any SCV pull. If you think having storm avaiable at 12 minutes instead of 13 minutes is THAT important, go ahead and do that. But I don't buy it and I think I'm skilled enough to make do with 2 ranged colossi until there are enough vikings out to threaten me. Terrans will not have that many vikings before 13 minutes, because they also have to make a couple of medivacs.
Fair enough, I can see your reasoning behind the second Colossus. I still believe you invest to much into this tech in order to be able to quickly transition out of it and depending on your league, you will not be able to hold your base against a pressuring terran with 2 C going into storm and double forge.
Thats essentially the reason why you dont see this at pro level, dont even mind the SCV pulls.
But as always, if you become harder to read, it might as well give you the edge and be viable because of that.
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Hello everyone! I've been lurking here forever. I decided to finally make an account to ask questions because I couldn't find some information I was looking for.
Would someone kindly link some VoDs or up to date guides on phoenix colossus style PvT. I always really liked Jim's style, and I've noticed that the Koreans are trying that now. I found an old guide on IMBABuilds and an old Day[9] Daily. Are those resources still up to date in the current state of the game? If not, how has the style changed over time?
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On August 14 2014 03:47 Don Jimbo wrote:
Hello everyone! I've been lurking here forever. I decided to finally make an account to ask questions because I couldn't find some information I was looking for.
Would someone kindly link some VoDs or up to date guides on phoenix colossus style PvT. I always really liked Jim's style, and I've noticed that the Koreans are trying that now. I found an old guide on IMBABuilds and an old Day[9] Daily. Are those resources still up to date in the current state of the game? If not, how has the style changed over time?
Classic vs. Maru from the last GSL, he played Phoenix Colo a couple of times. Jim and Macsed were doing it a lot too.
As far as the Meta, widow mines are being used a lot more now so you have to be careful not to fly into a group of them (Phoenixes will fly faster than your obs). I haven't seen that style played since the patch. But if you open Colo and they don't make mines it's still viable I guess.
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On August 14 2014 04:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 03:47 Don Jimbo wrote:
Hello everyone! I've been lurking here forever. I decided to finally make an account to ask questions because I couldn't find some information I was looking for.
Would someone kindly link some VoDs or up to date guides on phoenix colossus style PvT. I always really liked Jim's style, and I've noticed that the Koreans are trying that now. I found an old guide on IMBABuilds and an old Day[9] Daily. Are those resources still up to date in the current state of the game? If not, how has the style changed over time? Classic vs. Maru from the last GSL, he played Phoenix Colo a couple of times. Jim and Macsed were doing it a lot too. As far as the Meta, widow mines are being used a lot more now so you have to be careful not to fly into a group of them (Phoenixes will fly faster than your obs). I haven't seen that style played since the patch. But if you open Colo and they don't make mines it's still viable I guess.
Thanks. I'll check that out. I was under the impression that colossus>wm>ht. If that's right, it seems like I would have the tools to deal with mines especially if I can keep my oracle alive for mobile detection. Maybe I'm missing something though.
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What are some very heavy zealot-based builds to play against Terran?
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About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close...
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On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close...
Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning.
Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2014 18:04 Mojito99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close... Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning. Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment.
More importantly, you can't be out on the map at all during this time. The current state of play is that Protoss needs to be defensive and not move out until max, apart from perhaps some variety of early game pressure. Once you get past the initial stages of the game, you pretty much need to turtle until 200/200 and look for a good engagement.
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On August 14 2014 18:13 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 18:04 Mojito99 wrote:On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close... Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning. Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment. More importantly, you can't be out on the map at all during this time. The current state of play is that Protoss needs to be defensive and not move out until max, apart from perhaps some variety of early game pressure. Once you get past the initial stages of the game, you pretty much need to turtle until 200/200 and look for a good engagement.
I don't know if we're arguing semantics here, but you sure can move out on the map.
Saying you can't move out at all after the early game is a bit misleading. There are late-forge builds, which usually end up with pretty much the same set up, but revolve around a more aggressive mid game style. PartinG's games are a good example, and also most games on Merry Go-Round. They're not "the standard", but they favor a much more aggressive style at certain moments.
Catching the terran when they're not paying attention to their army and chasing stuff is also good. Granted, that's very different from moving out willy-nilly or in order to apply pressure on the other side of that map. But it's also easy for players to miss out on good opportunities because they literally never leave their base until they're maxed out.
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On August 14 2014 20:24 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 18:13 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2014 18:04 Mojito99 wrote:On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close... Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning. Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment. More importantly, you can't be out on the map at all during this time. The current state of play is that Protoss needs to be defensive and not move out until max, apart from perhaps some variety of early game pressure. Once you get past the initial stages of the game, you pretty much need to turtle until 200/200 and look for a good engagement. I don't know if we're arguing semantics here, but you sure can move out on the map. Saying you can't move out at all after the early game is a bit misleading. There are late-forge builds, which usually end up with pretty much the same set up, but revolve around a more aggressive mid game style. PartinG's games are a good example, and also most games on Merry Go-Round. They're not "the standard", but they favor a much more aggressive style at certain moments. Catching the terran when they're not paying attention to their army and chasing stuff is also good. Granted, that's very different from moving out willy-nilly or in order to apply pressure on the other side of that map. But it's also easy for players to miss out on good opportunities because they literally never leave their base until they're maxed out.
I don't know, I definitely did this aggressive mid game style you're talking about, in fact it was quite all-in as I did not have a 3rd base. So I did make a dedicated effort to kill him, not just pressure.
But he just dodged the attack and went straight to my base with all his SCVs 
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On August 14 2014 23:05 Tharkun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 20:24 vhapter wrote:On August 14 2014 18:13 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2014 18:04 Mojito99 wrote:On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close... Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning. Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment. More importantly, you can't be out on the map at all during this time. The current state of play is that Protoss needs to be defensive and not move out until max, apart from perhaps some variety of early game pressure. Once you get past the initial stages of the game, you pretty much need to turtle until 200/200 and look for a good engagement. I don't know if we're arguing semantics here, but you sure can move out on the map. Saying you can't move out at all after the early game is a bit misleading. There are late-forge builds, which usually end up with pretty much the same set up, but revolve around a more aggressive mid game style. PartinG's games are a good example, and also most games on Merry Go-Round. They're not "the standard", but they favor a much more aggressive style at certain moments. Catching the terran when they're not paying attention to their army and chasing stuff is also good. Granted, that's very different from moving out willy-nilly or in order to apply pressure on the other side of that map. But it's also easy for players to miss out on good opportunities because they literally never leave their base until they're maxed out. I don't know, I definitely did this aggressive mid game style you're talking about, in fact it was quite all-in as I did not have a 3rd base. So I did make a dedicated effort to kill him, not just pressure. But he just dodged the attack and went straight to my base with all his SCVs
My point is that you can play aggressively not only in the early game, but also in the mid game. Parting has been playing very aggressively in the mid game himself, but not exactly going all in... he gets fast blink and moves out early, builds a late robo for colossi, takes a relatively quick third (nothing crazy fast though) and gets late forges as well, then positions aggressively with blink stalker + colossi and a warp prism. Other players have done colossus timings (much more all in), which is different from what Parting has been doing. My point is that, while I don't play like that, there are ways to play aggressively in the mid game against terran, be it an all in or more macro-oriented style.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2014 23:28 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 23:05 Tharkun wrote:On August 14 2014 20:24 vhapter wrote:On August 14 2014 18:13 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2014 18:04 Mojito99 wrote:On August 14 2014 17:41 Tharkun wrote:
About SCV pulls, what is the key to hold that off without storm ?
I played 2 similar games yesterday : I push on his 3rd with 3 colossus around 12:00, he recognizes he can't hold onto his 3rd, so he pulls all his scvs and goes straight to my base while i kill his 3rd.
I had quite a few forcefields, but he scouted my build early (scanned it) and made enough vikings, while i didn't have so many stalkers.
My army was crushed hard, not even close... Assuming a standard game. Zest and CJHero show that in order to hold an SCV pull you cannot transition. You need constant colossus production and double forges and go up to 5-7 Colossus before going into storm. you also need forcefields to hold and excellent stalker positioning. Obviously there are many other ways to do it with different unit comps. But thats the safest way at the moment. More importantly, you can't be out on the map at all during this time. The current state of play is that Protoss needs to be defensive and not move out until max, apart from perhaps some variety of early game pressure. Once you get past the initial stages of the game, you pretty much need to turtle until 200/200 and look for a good engagement. I don't know if we're arguing semantics here, but you sure can move out on the map. Saying you can't move out at all after the early game is a bit misleading. There are late-forge builds, which usually end up with pretty much the same set up, but revolve around a more aggressive mid game style. PartinG's games are a good example, and also most games on Merry Go-Round. They're not "the standard", but they favor a much more aggressive style at certain moments. Catching the terran when they're not paying attention to their army and chasing stuff is also good. Granted, that's very different from moving out willy-nilly or in order to apply pressure on the other side of that map. But it's also easy for players to miss out on good opportunities because they literally never leave their base until they're maxed out. I don't know, I definitely did this aggressive mid game style you're talking about, in fact it was quite all-in as I did not have a 3rd base. So I did make a dedicated effort to kill him, not just pressure. But he just dodged the attack and went straight to my base with all his SCVs My point is that you can play aggressively not only in the early game, but also in the mid game. Parting has been playing very aggressively in the mid game himself, but not exactly going all in... he gets fast blink and moves out early, builds a late robo for colossi, takes a relatively quick third (nothing crazy fast though) and gets late forges as well, then positions aggressively with blink stalker + colossi and a warp prism. Other players have done colossus timings (much more all in), which is different from what Parting has been doing. My point is that, while I don't play like that, there are ways to play aggressively in the mid game against terran, be it an all in or more macro-oriented style.
What I meant was, if you're playing a safe macro style, you can't be out on the map, you'll get surrounded and killed by a good terran without much trouble.
If you're going for an all-in kill timing, you're subject to base trades because terran has map control and a more mobile, faster army. Protoss will not win base trades with terran, our buildings don't fly and we don't have mules, so this is not a winning proposition. If you're out on the map, you have to be absolutely certain of his army position and units at all times.
Aggressive timing builds are different and can work, but you still have to be extremely careful.
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I agree. Everytime I move out with colossus/stalker I die, some people make it work, but I think it's much easier to win by playing defensive and trying to get to the lategame.
Regarding SCV pulls, I feel like photon cannons are underused? I usually think they are bad, but since if you just hold the attack you win, why not get like 10 photon cannons once you see the scvs coming? They would help out against vikings too.
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On August 15 2014 08:10 KingAlphard wrote:
I agree. Everytime I move out with colossus/stalker I die, some people make it work, but I think it's much easier to win by playing defensive and trying to get to the lategame.
Regarding SCV pulls, I feel like photon cannons are underused? I usually think they are bad, but since if you just hold the attack you win, why not get like 10 photon cannons once you see the scvs coming? They would help out against vikings too.
I've thought about getting a few cannons myself, but never really tried it. I guess one of the big problems with cannons is that the terran can just ignore the base with cannons and move to your more vulnerable expansion (not to say that's totally useless, since that still serves as a way to buy time). I don't think that's the only downside, and I'm not saying it couldn't possibly work either, but even pros have a hard time dealing with scv pulls... I've asked Welmu on his stream about scv pulls, but as expected, he just said it's tough and that if you don't have storm, you have to force field to buy time and snipe vikings with stalkers. But even if you do that right, you can still die to scv pulls (and you definitely will).
I wonder if getting a templar archives for storm before charge would be a safer way to play if you're going colossus heavy. Either for storm, or maybe 2 archons just to help you kill vikings or something. Because archons won't be as effective against bio as storm, but I think they could be fairly helpful (along with blink stalkers) in keeping vikings away from colossi.
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On August 15 2014 08:59 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2014 08:10 KingAlphard wrote:
I agree. Everytime I move out with colossus/stalker I die, some people make it work, but I think it's much easier to win by playing defensive and trying to get to the lategame.
Regarding SCV pulls, I feel like photon cannons are underused? I usually think they are bad, but since if you just hold the attack you win, why not get like 10 photon cannons once you see the scvs coming? They would help out against vikings too. I've thought about getting a few cannons myself, but never really tried it. I guess one of the big problems with cannons is that the terran can just ignore the base with cannons and move to your more vulnerable expansion (not to say that's totally useless, since that still serves as a way to buy time). I don't think that's the only downside, and I'm not saying it couldn't possibly work either, but even pros have a hard time dealing with scv pulls... I've asked Welmu on his stream about scv pulls, but as expected, he just said it's tough and that if you don't have storm, you have to force field to buy time and snipe vikings with stalkers. But even if you do that right, you can still die to scv pulls (and you definitely will). I wonder if getting a templar archives for storm before charge would be a safer way to play if you're going colossus heavy. Either for storm, or maybe 2 archons just to help you kill vikings or something. Because archons won't be as effective against bio as storm, but I think they could be fairly helpful (along with blink stalkers) in keeping vikings away from colossi.
Charge is a must because it allows your zealots (if well upgraded) to clean the marauders without being kited to oblivion after your colossi killed as many marines + scvs they could before the vikings snipes them. Honestly never transitioning to storm (just templar archives) and massing colossi is by far the easiest way to hold scv pulls if you can FF and timewarp well. For the 15-16:00ish scv pulls you should be able to afford quite a lot of archons too (3-3 has to be cancelled usually) that are a really nice buffer.
It's tough anyway, there is no miracle recipe in holding scv pulls if you opened with colossi. If you try to go storm, you can still get hit by 4 ghosts pulls or get it too late/with too few templars having energy, so I don't like to rely on it. 2/2 and 5+ colossi normally does fine if the T doesn't outmicro you or takes you in a huge concave (which happens to me every time ^^).
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EPT
