EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 28
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FungalSwarm
Canada1 Post
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
On April 08 2013 09:32 ypslala wrote: imho, 2 base agression into 3rd hatch, is the way better option. zergs should get away from the "zerg is the makro race" thingy. I'm not sure if this applies to HotS but in WoL, 2 base z autoloses to <9 min 7gate aggression. Zerg has been pigeonholed into fast 3 hatch ever since. Anything less than 56 drones is an allin. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 08 2013 13:01 Reki wrote: I'm not sure if this applies to HotS but in WoL, 2 base z autoloses to <9 min 7gate aggression. Zerg has been pigeonholed into fast 3 hatch ever since. Anything less than 56 drones is an allin. We have swarmhosts now so holding a standard 7 gate shouldn't be a problem. Provided you scout it. You'll have a serious advantage after you defend successfully even if you haven't taken your third yet. We also have vipers now which buffs our mid game ground army against colossus timings and force field spam. We're no longer in the awkward position of needing to build a large amount of corruptors. So there's some definite increases in our efficiency mid game that allow us some leeway. Of course you can't ignore the fact that protoss has been given the mothership core to balance things out. Taking an early third base becomes more of a struggle for an advantage rather than something you must do immediately to stay in the game. One other thing to look at though is your larva count. Prior to 7 minutes I think two hatcheries is fine but once you reach 7 minutes and near saturation on two bases I think a third hatch is necessary even if you can't take an expansion due to a warp gate rush. Of course this also depends on what you're making. Depending on how the game is going if you're spending on swarmhosts which are very pricey or dumping excess minerals into queens or spines you may not feel the need to macro hatch. Most of my games against protoss are actually won past the 15 minute mark. I feel like ultralisks and vipers are strong enough to carry us into late game. I believe hydralisks are strong enough against protoss air. Provided they are actually attacking the air units. I didn't get this right away and a lot of other people probably missed it too. You have to make sure your hydras are focusing the voidrays from the start to the end of the fight or you will lose. Don't let them attack zealots or stalkers that's what your ultralisks are for. Ultras are far more efficient at killing those units than hydras. | ||
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Magus.421
France159 Posts
But, we have burrow. And roaches + burrow can easily defend a 7g. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On April 08 2013 13:01 Reki wrote: I'm not sure if this applies to HotS but in WoL, 2 base z autoloses to <9 min 7gate aggression. Zerg has been pigeonholed into fast 3 hatch ever since. Anything less than 56 drones is an allin. Um... what? I think you're confusing general 2base play with 2base MUTA, which does more or less autolose to <9min 7gate aggression, but any other 2base opener (roach, roach/hydra, now swarmhost) should crush 7gate easily, and is much easier to hold than if you do 3base. | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On April 09 2013 01:43 Reki wrote: Sorry, my bad. I was given the impression that the constant forcefields while snowballing makes z trade badly if you go 2 base with any WoL ground composition against 7g. At least at the 1000point + master lvl. 2 base swarm host > 7 gate. I don't think I have lost to a 7 gate when going for quick swarm hosts. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 08 2013 19:30 Magus.421 wrote: There's no way you can have vipers at the 7g timing. You can have swarm host if you start your lair soon enough but i don't think you can have enough swarm hosts. But, we have burrow. And roaches + burrow can easily defend a 7g. I looks like you're responding to me but I'm not sure. If so you must be confused though I never said anything about defending a 7 gate with vipers hehe. | ||
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Paddywan
Ireland11 Posts
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ypslala
Burma545 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192072 | ||
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:44 ypslala wrote: the bestl saturation per base is 27 incl. gas. = 21 on minerals http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192072 I found nothing in this post about it including gas. It spoke only of optimal mineral saturation being 27 drones. | ||
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Paddywan
Ireland11 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:44 ypslala wrote: the bestl saturation per base is 27 incl. gas. = 21 on minerals http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192072 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352417 suggests 16 is optimal. Different threads saying different things in different contexts. If you have another base without 16 workers it is optimal to transfer from bases with more than 16 until you have 16 at each. The question is what do you aim for when you don't have that other base, yet or don't want another base right now. Do you go up to 21 and then transfer if/when you get another base or stay on 16 and spend the money/larvae on units. | ||
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Dynamitekid
United States55 Posts
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Arch00
United States233 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:44 ypslala wrote: the bestl saturation per base is 27 incl. gas. = 21 on minerals http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192072 He says 27 on minerals, not 27 total | ||
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SK
France11 Posts
Maybe you should read more than the first post. OP is wrong afaik. 24 (8x3) is the maximal saturation, and something between 16 and 20 is considered optimal. (2 workers per 'nearby' mineral spot and 3 for 'farther' ones). Anything over 16 decrease in efficiency: basically having 16 drones in your main + 4 in an expo will grant more minerals than 20 in your main only. Stephano may feel unsafe to expo, build drones in advance for when he does, or simply want to stay on X bases for a while while getting more income, there's nothing wrong with this behavior. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
When playing vs Terran, Pro zergs stock pile extra drones @ each of their bases for static def now vs drops ect Stephano will drone his bases +25 drones then make static def later on vs a bio player. Also its unsafe to saturate natural right away if terran went for more then few reapers as they will pick off drones easier, Once the reapers go / gets taken care of stephano always properly saturates his bases. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
On April 09 2013 12:08 Dynamitekid wrote: Do you guys hotkey your banelings in the same group as your zerglings? In ZvZ it's pretty good to have hot keys for banelings only to properly micro in bane/ling wars, in the other match ups not so much. | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1774 Posts
Today we could see in proleague zenio transitioning from pure muta ling (some banelings ofc) into infestors with burrow and also he started up melee upgrades. Is it safe to say that this is the way to go, once you secure 3 bases and get decent amount of mutas? While having spores over bases, they cant really engage you and you start transitioning into infestors but you give up map control. Once those infestors pop up, it really makes a huge difference in muta v muta wars, and with ling upgrades kicking in run-byes become a totally different story. I suspect on hive tech and 4bases+ you would aim for ultra ling infestor (muta?)? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 09 2013 18:09 thOr6136 wrote: So, lets talk a bit about zvz Today we could see in proleague zenio transitioning from pure muta ling (some banelings ofc) into infestors with burrow and also he started up melee upgrades. Is it safe to say that this is the way to go, once you secure 3 bases and get decent amount of mutas? While having spores over bases, they cant really engage you and you start transitioning into infestors but you give up map control. Once those infestors pop up, it really makes a huge difference in muta v muta wars, and with ling upgrades kicking in run-byes become a totally different story. I suspect on hive tech and 4bases+ you would aim for ultra ling infestor (muta?)? No it's always a risk to transition out of mutalisks. Had hydra attacked 30 seconds earlier he would have killed/crippled zenio really bad. What zenio did was greedy and a huge risk that obviously paid off. Normally transitions happen but it's a little later then when he did. | ||
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