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On April 06 2013 05:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 02:11 Grobbles wrote:
Due to the constant reaper openings from Terran is a kind of Spanishiwa ish 4 queen and delayed gas an effective opening?
As the reaper opening is 99% of the time transitioned into hellions? assuming you're talking about 18 supply fast 3rd since I believe I do the same opening. early 3 hatch queens with no gas can deal with reapers just fine, you don't need speed. it's really important to have a spine at ur 3rd and 3 queens together at ur nat otherwise you can lose queens to 1/2 reaper 6 hellion pressure. getting a few defensive roaches is useful against more than 4 hellions though.
you 15h 16p 18h? ovie?
into 4 queens?
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On April 06 2013 05:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 02:11 Grobbles wrote:
Due to the constant reaper openings from Terran is a kind of Spanishiwa ish 4 queen and delayed gas an effective opening?
As the reaper opening is 99% of the time transitioned into hellions? assuming you're talking about 18 supply fast 3rd since I believe I do the same opening. early 3 hatch queens with no gas can deal with reapers just fine, you don't need speed. it's really important to have a spine at ur 3rd and 3 queens together at ur nat otherwise you can lose queens to 1/2 reaper 6 hellion pressure. getting a few defensive roaches is useful against more than 4 hellions though.
3rd hatch at 18 supply vs terran? Could you explain this BO a bit further?
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16 hatch 17 pool 18 hatch 18 ovvie 2~4 lings (depends on map distance for reaper travel time)
4 queens - bring 1st main queen to nat to help defend 2nd queen from being microed
1 spine ~6-6:20; earlier if cc first or 1 reaper or rax cc. 6:20 if 2 reapers. ~6:30 vs 3 reapers unless no factory
generally 6 min 2x gas - optional roaches, otherwise speed -> 4th -> lair / double evo / bane if 3oc
working on different openings off that atm
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15h 16p 17 ovi, 1 queen in main + 2-4 lings + steal HIS natural with scouting drone. 2nd queen also in main, later 2x gas + roach warren (lingspeed or roaches depending on him going bio or helions). 3rd base + 2x evo, hf ^^
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In ZvZ, is it better to open baneling nest before speed to defend against speedling all ins or go for quick speed and get the banes nest after you get enough lings out?
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How the hell can I defend versus speedling/muta without using mutas in the mix?
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On April 06 2013 11:06 Ricoic wrote:
In ZvZ, is it better to open baneling nest before speed to defend against speedling all ins or go for quick speed and get the banes nest after you get enough lings out?
That just depends on your opponent. If they went very early pool, and you know they are trying to pull some sort of 10 pool speedling/baneling all in, or something similar, then you should throw down the baneling nest first. Otherwise, if you scout a similar timed pool/hatch, you're safe to get speed first then banelings.
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On April 06 2013 11:06 Ricoic wrote:
In ZvZ, is it better to open baneling nest before speed to defend against speedling all ins or go for quick speed and get the banes nest after you get enough lings out?
This is very dependent on how early the other player got gas. For example if I scouted my opponent was had 50 more gas then me, yeah I am getting a baneling nest first, if my opponent is even/behind then I know our speeds will finish at the same time or mine ahead.
If you have no idea and you aren't planning on doing ling/bane aggression then I would get a baneling nest first.
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On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically.
But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you.
Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically.
That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too.
It's a strategy game after all.
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On April 06 2013 17:22 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically. But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you. Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically. That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too. It's a strategy game after all.
There is a reason 14/14 died. It's actually not that hard to find out if the zerg opponent is going to be aggressive or not. His drone count, did he take an expansion? Is he droning his expansion? There is a reason at pro level almost no zerg does this except to all in, 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is just better in every way, it's not to hard to defend a 14/14 all in, you get a hatchery better, you get a better economy and the only difference is your speed is a little later.
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On April 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 17:22 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically. But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you. Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically. That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too. It's a strategy game after all. There is a reason 14/14 died. It's actually not that hard to find out if the zerg opponent is going to be aggressive or not. His drone count, did he take an expansion? Is he droning his expansion? There is a reason at pro level almost no zerg does this except to all in, 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is just better in every way, it's not to hard to defend a 14/14 all in, you get a hatchery better, you get a better economy and the only difference is your speed is a little later.
If your opponents manage to find if you droned on your extension when you did go 14/14 i think you failed hard.
I think this opening died on pro level not because of 15p/16h/16g but because of the 15h/16g/16p, which has almost the same speed timing, but with a better economy.
In ZvZ, there are a lot of BO-win economically (14/14 > 10p, 15h/16g/16p > 14/14, 10p > 15h...), but on ladder, the least gambling opening and the strongest strategically is the 14/14/21.
Good economy, and very flexible.
14/14 is not a really good opening in a best of 3, I can agree on that. I think you need to gamble in a best of 3 (hatch first/10 pool/14pool) But on ladder, where you dont know your opponent and what he likes to do, its way better.
My winrate is at ~70% in ZvZ. When i played 14p/16h/16g, it dropped to 40%. Same for my teammates.
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On April 06 2013 17:40 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2013 17:22 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically. But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you. Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically. That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too. It's a strategy game after all. There is a reason 14/14 died. It's actually not that hard to find out if the zerg opponent is going to be aggressive or not. His drone count, did he take an expansion? Is he droning his expansion? There is a reason at pro level almost no zerg does this except to all in, 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is just better in every way, it's not to hard to defend a 14/14 all in, you get a hatchery better, you get a better economy and the only difference is your speed is a little later. If your opponents manage to find if you droned on your extension when you did go 14/14 i think you failed hard. I think this opening died on pro level not because of 15p/16h/16g but because of the 15h/16g/16p, which has almost the same speed timing, but with a better economy. In ZvZ, there are a lot of BO-win economically (14/14 > 10p, 15h/16g/16p > 14/14, 10p > 15h...), but on ladder, the least gambling opening and the strongest strategically is the 14/14/21. Good economy, and very flexible. 14/14 is not a really good opening in a best of 3, I can agree on that. I think you need to gamble in a best of 3 (hatch first/10 pool/14pool) But on ladder, where you dont know your opponent and what he likes to do, its way better. My winrate is at ~70% in ZvZ. When i played 14p/16h/16g, it dropped to 40%. Same for my teammates.
Actually you can scout if your opponent is droning with an overlord and not lose the overlord. 99% of the maps (maybe all now) have a spot that an overlord can hide behind and then they can check the drone count and obviously if you are seeing almost no drones and you have drones you know he's all inning.
Also yes 15h/16g/16p is obviously a lot lot better then 14/14 but 15p is still way better as I have stated before.
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On April 06 2013 17:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 17:40 Insoleet wrote:On April 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2013 17:22 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically. But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you. Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically. That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too. It's a strategy game after all. There is a reason 14/14 died. It's actually not that hard to find out if the zerg opponent is going to be aggressive or not. His drone count, did he take an expansion? Is he droning his expansion? There is a reason at pro level almost no zerg does this except to all in, 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is just better in every way, it's not to hard to defend a 14/14 all in, you get a hatchery better, you get a better economy and the only difference is your speed is a little later. If your opponents manage to find if you droned on your extension when you did go 14/14 i think you failed hard. I think this opening died on pro level not because of 15p/16h/16g but because of the 15h/16g/16p, which has almost the same speed timing, but with a better economy. In ZvZ, there are a lot of BO-win economically (14/14 > 10p, 15h/16g/16p > 14/14, 10p > 15h...), but on ladder, the least gambling opening and the strongest strategically is the 14/14/21. Good economy, and very flexible. 14/14 is not a really good opening in a best of 3, I can agree on that. I think you need to gamble in a best of 3 (hatch first/10 pool/14pool) But on ladder, where you dont know your opponent and what he likes to do, its way better. My winrate is at ~70% in ZvZ. When i played 14p/16h/16g, it dropped to 40%. Same for my teammates. Actually you can scout if your opponent is droning with an overlord and not lose the overlord. 99% of the maps (maybe all now) have a spot that an overlord can hide behind and then they can check the drone count and obviously if you are seeing almost no drones and you have drones you know he's all inning. Also yes 15h/16g/16p is obviously a lot lot better then 14/14 but 15p is still way better as I have stated before.
Doing a 14/14/21, your first queen does an inject and go to the natural. Here, you can catch the scouting overlord with a queen + an ovie, before your hatch is even finished. And then, your opponent plays in the dark.
Well it seems we wont manage to agree. No problem, maybe players should just try and chose the one style which fits them better :p
By the way, thanks for your vP guides, they saved my hots winrate ^^
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How do you guys feel about fast mutas in zvt vs rax expand or 14CC? Like standard opening 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas and first 100 gast for speed and then lair for mutas. When you are getting mutas up you take 3rd and drone up, while on mutas (8-12) you get swarm hosts (or blings and burrow, i don't know what would be better) and proceed with normal game.
Is it sacrificing too much economy?
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What should in ZvP against Stargates openings? I am always harrassed by them, I build spores, but they still deny my map vision with OL and they can micro mutas really easy. Also is there some guide to ZvP on TL? could find any.
Thanks
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On April 06 2013 18:09 Phantasmiq wrote:
What should in ZvP against Stargates openings? I am always harrassed by them, I build spores, but they still deny my map vision with OL and they can micro mutas really easy. Also is there some guide to ZvP on TL? could find any.
Thanks
You should go hydra and deny the protoss 3rd.
Checkout blade's guide, the ZvP one is really good. Probably the best way to play ZvP atm.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758
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I need some serious help against Terran. I simply have no idea how I am supposed to be able to defend against harassment and drops and things. I ALWAYS have a macro advantage all game but I can never move out because if I do I will get killed by 5 dropships coming at each base. I seem to always have terrible engagements.
I am a Diamond Zerg but have not won a macro game zvt. Ever. My winrate is very high against the other races and I will sometimes get cheese wins off terrans. I would appreciate any help I could get. Here is a replay. I think I just suck ass and simply cannot play fast enough to win.
http://drop.sc/318670
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On April 06 2013 18:06 thOr6136 wrote:
How do you guys feel about fast mutas in zvt vs rax expand or 14CC? Like standard opening 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas and first 100 gast for speed and then lair for mutas. When you are getting mutas up you take 3rd and drone up, while on mutas (8-12) you get swarm hosts (or blings and burrow, i don't know what would be better) and proceed with normal game.
Is it sacrificing too much economy?
2 base muta is only good if you surprise T. If they went fact port you should be able to do a bit of damage. If they went fe 3 rax and got turrets it's like a worst case scenario.
I usually just go mutas after 3 base saturation or more. Mutas on 2 base cut into ur econ too much for little benefit unless T is completely unprepared.
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On April 06 2013 22:02 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 18:06 thOr6136 wrote:
How do you guys feel about fast mutas in zvt vs rax expand or 14CC? Like standard opening 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas and first 100 gast for speed and then lair for mutas. When you are getting mutas up you take 3rd and drone up, while on mutas (8-12) you get swarm hosts (or blings and burrow, i don't know what would be better) and proceed with normal game.
Is it sacrificing too much economy? 2 base muta is only good if you surprise T. If they went fact port you should be able to do a bit of damage. If they went fe 3 rax and got turrets it's like a worst case scenario. I usually just go mutas after 3 base saturation or more. Mutas on 2 base cut into ur econ too much for little benefit unless T is completely unprepared.
Yeah, i guess you are right :S The thing i like about it right now is that it gives you control over terran, he has to be in base for some time, it feels like i am in control and potentially do some damage . I don't get that when playing 3 base into muta. Mutas fill a different role then. Or is it me doing it wrong?
Maybe they hit harder later on when flock is bigger. hmm. I will have to play more i guess 
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On April 06 2013 17:40 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2013 17:22 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 14:56 blade55555 wrote:On April 05 2013 14:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 05 2013 07:29 loginn wrote:On April 05 2013 07:07 kuebk wrote:
Guys what you think about 14g 14p 15h against zvz? It's probably still worse than 15 pool 16h 16g Actually i think 14g/14p/21h is way better on the ladder than 15p/16h/16g because - You have early map control, good to scout what your opponent preppares - You are safe against any sort of all-in, and it's BO-win against the mighty 8-10 pool - You can chose to be agressive or defensive, and your opponent doesnt know what you'll do. Just pull 2 drones from gas when you got 100, if your opponents expanded fast. Eh 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is still better economically. 14/14/21 you kind of have to make speedlings and try to do damage or you will fall way way behind economically. But its so passive that there are a lot of chance that your opponent manage to do damages to you. Also, having early speedlings make your opponent game transparent. You usually know exactaly what he is going for. And that's a huge advantage, way better than a difference of 2 drones economically. That fact that your opponent cannot know what you are going for (huge aggression ? passive play ? tech rush ? fast third ?) is way better than 2 drones, too. It's a strategy game after all. There is a reason 14/14 died. It's actually not that hard to find out if the zerg opponent is going to be aggressive or not. His drone count, did he take an expansion? Is he droning his expansion? There is a reason at pro level almost no zerg does this except to all in, 15 pool 16 h 16 gas is just better in every way, it's not to hard to defend a 14/14 all in, you get a hatchery better, you get a better economy and the only difference is your speed is a little later. If your opponents manage to find if you droned on your extension when you did go 14/14 i think you failed hard. I think this opening died on pro level not because of 15p/16h/16g but because of the 15h/16g/16p, which has almost the same speed timing, but with a better economy. In ZvZ, there are a lot of BO-win economically (14/14 > 10p, 15h/16g/16p > 14/14, 10p > 15h...), but on ladder, the least gambling opening and the strongest strategically is the 14/14/21. Good economy, and very flexible. 14/14 is not a really good opening in a best of 3, I can agree on that. I think you need to gamble in a best of 3 (hatch first/10 pool/14pool) But on ladder, where you dont know your opponent and what he likes to do, its way better. My winrate is at ~70% in ZvZ. When i played 14p/16h/16g, it dropped to 40%. Same for my teammates.
"the least gambling opening and the strongest strategically is the 14/14/21"
There is no gamble in 15p/16h/16g, since it can defend against anything and is pretty much equal in economy with 15h, so I'd say 1414 is even more gamble since you get a bigger advantage vs some openers (early pools), but a much bigger disadvantage vs other openers (15h, 15p16h).
Also, the scouting overlord should never be catched, since it will be at a spot where it can easily move back to open space where no ground units can attack it.
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EPT
