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On April 04 2013 02:14 Glurkenspurk wrote:
Is there any legitimately reliable answer to 8/8 reapers? Even if I scout it I have no clue what to do outside of trying to blindly hard counter it with 14/14 or something.
Ok a couple things.
10 drone scout and look for proxy locations, if you see the proxy rax send another drone or 2 and kill the scv and deny any scv reinforcements. This is good for you as if he is 8/8 you win and most of the time the terran player will leave as he knows he's not going to win when his rax is canceled off of a 8/8/8.
Honestly so far everytime a terran 8/8/8's me I have scouted it 100% of the time, I haven't lost to it because I always scout it.
Now if you don't scout it your best response is to pull drones while waiting for pool to finish, make the drones an extractor or evo chamber once drones are reaching super low health. This is the best way to respond to any sort of proxy reaper until your lings are out.
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On April 04 2013 04:16 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 02:14 Glurkenspurk wrote:
Is there any legitimately reliable answer to 8/8 reapers? Even if I scout it I have no clue what to do outside of trying to blindly hard counter it with 14/14 or something. Ok a couple things. 10 drone scout and look for proxy locations, if you see the proxy rax send another drone or 2 and kill the scv and deny any scv reinforcements. This is good for you as if he is 8/8 you win and most of the time the terran player will leave as he knows he's not going to win when his rax is canceled off of a 8/8/8. Honestly so far everytime a terran 8/8/8's me I have scouted it 100% of the time, I haven't lost to it because I always scout it. Now if you don't scout it your best response is to pull drones while waiting for pool to finish, make the drones an extractor or evo chamber once drones are reaching super low health. This is the best way to respond to any sort of proxy reaper until your lings are out.
Now I don't want to act like I know more than you do, but if he continues to build reapers, your lings won't do anything unless they have speed. 5-6 reapers will just kill anything, even queens. I also don't like the 'scout for every possible location with a drone' response you opted for, because on huge maps they can proxy somewhere not obvious, and your drone really can't check everywhere. Reapers are fast, they don't mind traveling a bit further. If you simply scout his base with ~13 drone, you can throw down your gas faster, thus avoiding the point where he reaches this 'critical' mass of reapers before you have speed done.
But then again you're GM and I'm masters, so.. Perhaps both ways work.
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On April 03 2013 21:14 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 19:46 Azoryen wrote:On April 03 2013 16:41 gronnelg wrote:
What is the most standard, macro oriented zvz opening?
Im still stuck on 15h 16p 17g. Lately I've had a hard time with people opening pool first, into 6 lings, then into a normal macro game. My own queens and lings are so far away at that point, that I usually take quite an economic blow... Ever heard of 15 pool? So that's 15 p 15 h 17g?
I like 15 pool 16 hatch 17 gas but i guess it is just preference. Also this build is still prone to 10 pools if you do not save larva to make lings just incase. Note that you are still behind economically speaking to a 15 hatch.
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I always wondered how a Zerg player can beat a Protoss in air? I have always tried but not really hard counters mass Void Carriers.
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On April 04 2013 05:51 Stormcomming wrote:
I always wondered how a Zerg player can beat a Protoss in air? I have always tried but not really hard counters mass Void Carriers.
Hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper. If toss isn't making high templar or colossi then pure hydra/viper will beat it. If he is going HT/Colossi make sure to have sh/ultra so you can kill the ground army and not let hydra melt to storm/colossi.
It's only way I have beaten the sky toss army and I am having high success with it.
On April 04 2013 04:58 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 04:16 blade55555 wrote:On April 04 2013 02:14 Glurkenspurk wrote:
Is there any legitimately reliable answer to 8/8 reapers? Even if I scout it I have no clue what to do outside of trying to blindly hard counter it with 14/14 or something. Ok a couple things. 10 drone scout and look for proxy locations, if you see the proxy rax send another drone or 2 and kill the scv and deny any scv reinforcements. This is good for you as if he is 8/8 you win and most of the time the terran player will leave as he knows he's not going to win when his rax is canceled off of a 8/8/8. Honestly so far everytime a terran 8/8/8's me I have scouted it 100% of the time, I haven't lost to it because I always scout it. Now if you don't scout it your best response is to pull drones while waiting for pool to finish, make the drones an extractor or evo chamber once drones are reaching super low health. This is the best way to respond to any sort of proxy reaper until your lings are out. Now I don't want to act like I know more than you do, but if he continues to build reapers, your lings won't do anything unless they have speed. 5-6 reapers will just kill anything, even queens. I also don't like the 'scout for every possible location with a drone' response you opted for, because on huge maps they can proxy somewhere not obvious, and your drone really can't check everywhere. Reapers are fast, they don't mind traveling a bit further. If you simply scout his base with ~13 drone, you can throw down your gas faster, thus avoiding the point where he reaches this 'critical' mass of reapers before you have speed done. But then again you're GM and I'm masters, so.. Perhaps both ways work.
You of course get speedlings sorry I forgot to mention it.
Also no if you are talking about big maps is that 4 player maps? If so proxies can only be in 1 location really and that's the middle of the map, unless he's map hacking proxying on a 4 player map won't work out for him sense he doesn't know where you spawn. If he proxies it'll be in middle of map or by his base.
Also on 2 player maps everyone should know the proxy locations. If you don't like to drone scout for possible proxies enjoy taking a lot more damage if you would just scout for proxies and then his base. But it's just imo best way ^_^
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On April 03 2013 21:14 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 19:46 Azoryen wrote:On April 03 2013 16:41 gronnelg wrote:
What is the most standard, macro oriented zvz opening?
Im still stuck on 15h 16p 17g. Lately I've had a hard time with people opening pool first, into 6 lings, then into a normal macro game. My own queens and lings are so far away at that point, that I usually take quite an economic blow... Ever heard of 15 pool? So that's 15 p 15 h 17g?
I don't think my level of play (plat-diam) is good enough do give advice around here, but you mentioned that you have problems with hatch first against early pools, so the obvious answer is to open eco pool first. Anything like 14 or 15 pool should allow you to defend early pools easier than with hatch first and the economic difference is neglectable.
Pool first is probably more "standard" than hatch first, except maybe at pro level, where the difference between the two builds matters the most. So unless you're GM or love to drone micro, just go pool first, you'll avoid a lot of problems and doesn't make a difference for later stages of the game.
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On April 04 2013 06:30 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 21:14 gronnelg wrote:On April 03 2013 19:46 Azoryen wrote:On April 03 2013 16:41 gronnelg wrote:
What is the most standard, macro oriented zvz opening?
Im still stuck on 15h 16p 17g. Lately I've had a hard time with people opening pool first, into 6 lings, then into a normal macro game. My own queens and lings are so far away at that point, that I usually take quite an economic blow... Ever heard of 15 pool? So that's 15 p 15 h 17g? I don't think my level of play (plat-diam) is good enough do give advice around here, but you mentioned that you have problems with hatch first against early pools, so the obvious answer is to open eco pool first. Anything like 14 or 15 pool should allow you to defend early pools easier than with hatch first and the economic difference is neglectable. Pool first is probably more "standard" than hatch first, except maybe at pro level, where the difference between the two builds matters the most. So unless you're GM or love to drone micro, just go pool first, you'll avoid a lot of problems and doesn't make a difference for later stages of the game.
The most standard build order would be
15 Pool
16 Hatch
16 gas
15 Queen
17 Over
Inject then send queen to nat
@100 gas speed
2nd queen in the main
@50 gas Baneling nest
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so locusts coming out of swarm hosts rallied to a spot are on move command or am i just messing up over here? can i attack move them as they spawn or what? this messed me up several times.
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On April 04 2013 07:49 Mvrio wrote:
so locusts coming out of swarm hosts rallied to a spot are on move command or am i just messing up over here? can i attack move them as they spawn or what? this messed me up several times.
Do you have any replays? They tend to be a bit weird with their aggro. I usually just end up box selecting them to make them actually attack properly. It's so frustrating vs mines since mines never have priority 
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I'm sure this is has probably already been asked, but oh well...
What do you do when the opponent goes DT? All my 'Toss opponents go DT. Which unit is the best counter?
Thanks!
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On April 04 2013 07:49 Mvrio wrote:
so locusts coming out of swarm hosts rallied to a spot are on move command or am i just messing up over here? can i attack move them as they spawn or what? this messed me up several times.
Rally swarmhosts when they're burrowed to a point and the locusts attack move there.
On April 04 2013 14:01 zodiaczerg wrote:
I'm sure this is has probably already been asked, but oh well...
What do you do when the opponent goes DT? All my 'Toss opponents go DT. Which unit is the best counter?
Thanks!
Make two or three spores and get some roach/ling/overseer with your army when lair is done. Try to scout if they're taking a third behind it or going for a gate + archon allin followup (morphing dts to archons).
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How many zeglings should i make if protoss attacks early with 1 zealot 1 stalker and their mothership core?
I always overmake zerglings in this situation.
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On April 04 2013 19:36 Wob wrote:
How many zeglings should i make if protoss attacks early with 1 zealot 1 stalker and their mothership core?
I always overmake zerglings in this situation.
Something like 6 zerglings, assuming you have 2 queens at your 3rd base.
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On April 04 2013 19:36 Wob wrote:
How many zeglings should i make if protoss attacks early with 1 zealot 1 stalker and their mothership core?
I always overmake zerglings in this situation.
6 are enough imo. surround zealot and attack it with both queens (zealot does by far most DPS), after that focus MSC with
queens and let lings draw away the stalker. so if you start with 4 lings only add another 2.
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On April 04 2013 04:10 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 16:51 Expir3d wrote:
I'm losing lot of ZvP games when toss is able to take his third and hold on.
In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in.
In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras.
I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous.
Mothership core really changes things. Some strats are out of date. But don't worry we've got something better hydra speed and vipers. Against sentry heavy 3 base builds I actually recommend just staying put and macroing instead of doing a timing or any pressure at all. The reason for this is sentries are a waste. They are going to be useless late game so don't let him get any use out of them. Feinting an attack to get him to warp in more sentries can be helpful though just don't lose units doing it. Alternatively you could try swarmhost builds if you really would like to be aggressive. If he just transitions to colossus get 4 vipers then ultras. Be upgrading your ranged attack. The hydras will be your main source of damage the ultras are only there to tank. You only need like 3 or 4 ultras. Against a stargate 3 base build I think the best way to go is a hydra/ling timing. Go as soon as hydra speed finishes and spam zerglings behind it. As long as you do some damage you'll be fine. You have to focus fire voidrays. Don't let your hydras attack other units or buildings. Let your zerglings deal with them. Start your hive as soon as you determine that you can't kill him. Now if he goes colossus/air you want ultra/hydra/viper. If he goes templar/air you want swarmhost/ultra/hydra (vipers if he has carriers). Again 3 or 4 ultras is all you need don't overproduce them they get trapped in tight spaces. Make sure they are in front of your hydras. Most colossus timings hit at between 14:30 to 16 minutes. Have your vipers out by then and you'll have no problems.
Reading this atm, I know i've been overproducing ultras. If hydra are going to be my main source of damage and ultras tanking.. Should I prioritize ranged attack upgrades vs melee upgrades?
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On April 04 2013 19:59 Expir3d wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 04:10 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 03 2013 16:51 Expir3d wrote:
I'm losing lot of ZvP games when toss is able to take his third and hold on.
In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in.
In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras.
I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous.
Mothership core really changes things. Some strats are out of date. But don't worry we've got something better hydra speed and vipers. Against sentry heavy 3 base builds I actually recommend just staying put and macroing instead of doing a timing or any pressure at all. The reason for this is sentries are a waste. They are going to be useless late game so don't let him get any use out of them. Feinting an attack to get him to warp in more sentries can be helpful though just don't lose units doing it. Alternatively you could try swarmhost builds if you really would like to be aggressive. If he just transitions to colossus get 4 vipers then ultras. Be upgrading your ranged attack. The hydras will be your main source of damage the ultras are only there to tank. You only need like 3 or 4 ultras. Against a stargate 3 base build I think the best way to go is a hydra/ling timing. Go as soon as hydra speed finishes and spam zerglings behind it. As long as you do some damage you'll be fine. You have to focus fire voidrays. Don't let your hydras attack other units or buildings. Let your zerglings deal with them. Start your hive as soon as you determine that you can't kill him. Now if he goes colossus/air you want ultra/hydra/viper. If he goes templar/air you want swarmhost/ultra/hydra (vipers if he has carriers). Again 3 or 4 ultras is all you need don't overproduce them they get trapped in tight spaces. Make sure they are in front of your hydras. Most colossus timings hit at between 14:30 to 16 minutes. Have your vipers out by then and you'll have no problems. Reading this atm, I know i've been overproducing ultras. If hydra are going to be my main source of damage and ultras tanking.. Should I prioritize ranged attack upgrades vs melee upgrades?
Focus on the roles of your units. Due to the def upgrading working for both at the same time, you should of course rather upgrade the hydra attack over the Ultra´s.
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You can use burrow to great effect with some two base roach pressure
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Why don't more protoss go probe scout (see no early pool) -> Nexus -> Gate -> Core? Is there a way to punish this with 15p 16h that I don't know of?
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On April 05 2013 04:30 Zheryn wrote:
Why don't more protoss go probe scout (see no early pool) -> Nexus -> Gate -> Core? Is there a way to punish this with 15p 16h that I don't know of?
I think it's hard for them to deal with a couple zerglings getting into their base early on. And to prevent it they have to go to extreme measures such as chronoing gateway instead of nexus and spending extra minerals to wall off before they want to. So if you just build 6 zerglings and run over there you might find that you can deal some damage even if its not serious it could give you a lead.
On the other hand you can also be very greedy since there is no risk of cannon rush.
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EPT
