EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 23
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MurdockA
Argentina28 Posts
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theMarkovian
Netherlands183 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:27 MurdockA wrote: Whats the STANDARD timing to take a 3th base I usually do: ZvP - Around 22 supply (against forge fast expand) ZvT - Around 6:00 ingame minutes ZvZ - When you drop your spire | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:27 MurdockA wrote: Whats the STANDARD timing to take a 3th base and, when should i sacrifice an overlord scout his main. against protoss, you should be doing three base gasless expands so you want to go 15 pool, 16 hatch, 21 hatch. You should sacrifice on overlord around the 6:30 mark. Also, it is essential to keep your eye on when the protoss takes his gases at is natural as this indicates teching. Against terran, I like to take my third around 40-44 supply. Not sure if this is standard but it feels safe to me as you have a pretty decent econ at this pt. You should sacrifice your overlord at 6:00-6:30 as well. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:27 MurdockA wrote: Whats the STANDARD timing to take a 3th base and, when should i sacrifice an overlord scout his main. Anywhere between 3:30 and 7 minutes. If you're teching faster delay it but don't delay past 7 minutes. You need the extra larva and at 7 minutes you should have mineral and gas saturation of your two bases. If you want to tech slowly take it earlier and delay gas. But taking it before you have mineral saturation on your first base "16 on minerals" is inefficient. This of course depends on what your opponent does and assumes you're not being attacked or trying to attack. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:51 theMarkovian wrote: I usually do: ZvP - Around 22 supply (against forge fast expand) ZvT - Around 6:00 ingame minutes ZvZ - When you drop your spire Id have to 2nd this, except earlier vs terran 1 rax fe or cc first. 6:00 is a good safe one if u dont wanna scout. | ||
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Tz1k1
England6 Posts
Anyone up for the challenge of a complete Bronze - Diamond tutorial? | ||
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Necrome
12 Posts
 )ZvZ: you can win most games with 14pool14hatch into 2 base defensive using spines and walling straight to mutas and skip banelings/roaches altogether (may be outexpanded if opponent catches onto you) or ling/bane > muta. Both works kinda the same way, but ling/bane > muta nets you a little less gas and is more micro-intensive but makes further expanding easier so it's largely a stylistic choice. I've only lost once to non-muta play and the opponent faked a roach all-in into a 3 base roach + hydra composition that i couldn't outright kill. ZvP: Non-all-in 6 pool EVERY SINGLE GAME. 6 pool is undoubtedly the best opening for ZvP (I have 80% win rates on the matchup) and it can either outright win you the game, cripple the opponent or put the game in a normalized state if you kill just about 4-5 probes. Drone scout immediately after building the pool if on a 4-player map and always extractor trick the 4th set of lings because 8 lings are so much better than 6, and overlord after 4th set of lings. Airtoss late game is near-unstoppable now, so 6 pooling stops all that from happening and normally wins you the game in under 20 minutes. Most decent players will hold against a 6 pool so after the initial attack your choices are dependent on scouting information (which you can get easily by parking lings in his main to see gases). If toss goes to 2 gas: get more queens to prepare for oracles/phoenixes/DTs. Drop the spores when you see the stargate/twilight. Mine 100 gas asap to get speed up so you can make a major push with speedlings when he tries to take an expansion. If toss is on 1 gas, possible 4gate or 3gate pressure into expand, get speed and react to his army composition. If you spot more than 2 zealots, cancel speed and get roaches instead. Anything else can be held off by speedlings. ZvT is an f-ing nightmare due to bio + widow mines or mech + widow mines And I'm taking a break from the game due to this. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 03 2013 10:32 Necrome wrote: I'm a Grandmaster on the SEA ladder and thought I'd share some stuff across the various matchups now )ZvZ: you can win most games with 14pool14hatch into 2 base defensive using spines and walling straight to mutas and skip banelings/roaches altogether (may be outexpanded if opponent catches onto you) or ling/bane > muta. Both works kinda the same way, but ling/bane > muta nets you a little less gas and is more micro-intensive but makes further expanding easier so it's largely a stylistic choice. I've only lost once to non-muta play and the opponent faked a roach all-in into a 3 base roach + hydra composition that i couldn't outright kill. ZvP: Non-all-in 6 pool EVERY SINGLE GAME. 6 pool is undoubtedly the best opening for ZvP (I have 80% win rates on the matchup) and it can either outright win you the game, cripple the opponent or put the game in a normalized state if you kill just about 4-5 probes. Drone scout immediately after building the pool if on a 4-player map and always extractor trick the 4th set of lings because 8 lings are so much better than 6, and overlord after 4th set of lings. Airtoss late game is near-unstoppable now, so 6 pooling stops all that from happening and normally wins you the game in under 20 minutes. Most decent players will hold against a 6 pool so after the initial attack your choices are dependent on scouting information (which you can get easily by parking lings in his main to see gases). If toss goes to 2 gas: get more queens to prepare for oracles/phoenixes/DTs. Drop the spores when you see the stargate/twilight. Mine 100 gas asap to get speed up so you can make a major push with speedlings when he tries to take an expansion. If toss is on 1 gas, possible 4gate or 3gate pressure into expand, get speed and react to his army composition. If you spot more than 2 zealots, cancel speed and get roaches instead. Anything else can be held off by speedlings. ZvT is an f-ing nightmare due to bio + widow mines or mech + widow mines And I'm taking a break from the game due to this. Not to be offensive but the strats you just recommended aren't very good. Not trying to be rude but nobody should follow this advice none of it was good. zvz skipping banelings is just awful as you can't put pressure on a zerg who takes a third so you will lose in the muta war. zvp, 6 pool is again awful. Why would you say this is the best opening when that is so wrong? 15 pool is still best opener. For zvt, mech is easy hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra smashes it. Bio + widow mine is a little tougher but yeah it's fightable. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
I'm familiar with Blade's SH based ZvP, but I can't play that style myself. Everytime I try to use SHs it just pushes my multitasking too hard and I end up making a lot more mistakes than usual. I'm usually macro oriented, but with the way things are right now in ZvP, I'm open to all-in suggestions for this MU, as long as it something with positive expectation. I don't know which all-ins from WoL are still poweful and which are outdated, taking in consideration that P now has the MScore for defense. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
Im still stuck on 15h 16p 17g. Lately I've had a hard time with people opening pool first, into 6 lings, then into a normal macro game. My own queens and lings are so far away at that point, that I usually take quite an economic blow... | ||
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Expir3d
Spain17 Posts
In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in. In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras. I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On April 03 2013 16:51 Expir3d wrote: I'm losing lot of ZvP games when toss is able to take his third and hold on. In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in. In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras. I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous. I think you mostly need to add casters to your army. Infestors+Ultra/Bane are a very good combo if you abuse your mobility. If you go BL, infestors are still good, but tempest just hardcounter BL so hard... | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On April 03 2013 16:51 Expir3d wrote: I'm losing lot of ZvP games when toss is able to take his third and hold on. In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in. In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras. I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous. ultra hydra or swarmhost hydra ultra viper are decent compositions if the P is sorta going gateway or gate/colo focused armies. If they stay on those too long going to broodlords is fine. If they add a lot of anti-ultra units (archon/immortal) craptons of swarmhost are also good. Going straight to BLs instead of either SH/ultra seem extremely risky though if P is already adding in vr's in midgame though. haven't really experimented with ultra hydra infestor but that also seems good once P starts mixing in VR's to gate comps. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
On April 03 2013 16:41 gronnelg wrote: What is the most standard, macro oriented zvz opening? Im still stuck on 15h 16p 17g. Lately I've had a hard time with people opening pool first, into 6 lings, then into a normal macro game. My own queens and lings are so far away at that point, that I usually take quite an economic blow... Ever heard of 15 pool? | ||
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Expir3d
Spain17 Posts
On April 03 2013 17:02 Insoleet wrote: I think you mostly need to add casters to your army. Infestors+Ultra/Bane are a very good combo if you abuse your mobility. If you go BL, infestors are still good, but tempest just hardcounter BL so hard... You might be right, since infestor nerf I almost never use them. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
So that's 15 p 15 h 17g? | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
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zeek0us
United States67 Posts
On April 03 2013 13:49 Azoryen wrote: I'm looking for a good, no-too-hard strategy for plat/diam level ZvP. I'm familiar with Blade's SH based ZvP, but I can't play that style myself. Everytime I try to use SHs it just pushes my multitasking too hard and I end up making a lot more mistakes than usual. I'm usually macro oriented, but with the way things are right now in ZvP, I'm open to all-in suggestions for this MU, as long as it something with positive expectation. I don't know which all-ins from WoL are still poweful and which are outdated, taking in consideration that P now has the MScore for defense. I'm a Z at the same level as you, and this is my favorite ZvP build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=394271 It's great because your goal is very simple -- get 3 bases up, pump mutas forever, contain/harass him to death or win the base trade if he decides to move out. Stargate is hard to handle, but if you force him to commit to phoenix, you can switch to hydras and beat him with ling/hydra -- in any case, you're forcing him to react properly to you for a change. Any build besides SG and you can go pure muta-ling. Just don't skimp on the spines. Spam mutas all game, mass expand once your mutas have him pinned down, and mass lings/drop spines/add expos everywhere with excess mins, win the baserace whenever he moves out. Pay close attention to the bit about abandoning your third to make a spine forest from the drones at your nat if he does a fast 2-base all-in. 2 safe, saturated bases spamming mutas should be more than enough to get a flock that can establish the contain and do some effective harass. As soon as you contain him, you'll be able to expo all over the map and add in mass lings, so the next time he moves out it's an easy baserace win. This build is all about getting the muta flock up -- once you've got it, your foot is on his throat and he has to play perfectly to win. All you care about is preventing an expo, harassing wherever you can, and prepping to win a baserace. I'm sure better players can stop this, but in my experience, plat/dia protoss don't usually handle it well. It puts the pressure back on them and gives you some breathing room to macro instead of just sitting back and waiting for the haymaker of choice from the Toss. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 04 2013 02:14 Glurkenspurk wrote: Is there any legitimately reliable answer to 8/8 reapers? Even if I scout it I have no clue what to do outside of trying to blindly hard counter it with 14/14 or something. Dronescout at ~13. If he has gas, and no rax in his base you can be pretty much 100% sure he's doing 8/8/8: Get extractor yourself. Mine 100 gas, get speed, pull off. Before you have 100 gas the reaper is already in your base, but with good micro you should be able to hold off drone losses. (attack with 4-5, pull back weakened ones). Once queens pop you can be a little safer, but if he continues making reapers you'll just straight up lose without ling speed. Once ling speed is done (buy time for it with queens/slowlings, pull back weakened lings if you can) you've held off the attack and should be way, way ahead unless he killed a lot of drones. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 03 2013 16:51 Expir3d wrote: I'm losing lot of ZvP games when toss is able to take his third and hold on. In WoL I was so confident imitating Roach/Ling Stephano style but now it feels so useless. Roach/Hydra is almost a suicide if toss player has colossi out, I don't know a really good timing attack for this composition. Roach ling is just viable imo to stop 2 base immortal all-in. In late game I'm trying for ultra/roach if he's not going skytoss and I'm still losing most of late games archon/blink stalker is just so good vs ultras. I feel i'm being forced to get a really fast hive then decide if I go intro broodlords or ultralisks with not the success I had on WoL. If protoss is not going for a 1/2 base all-in timed attack it seems that zerg player is forced to rush for a really fast tech. In late game protoss is has more chance to win IMO now that in WoL vs a zerg, it just seems so ridiculous. Mothership core really changes things. Some strats are out of date. But don't worry we've got something better hydra speed and vipers. Against sentry heavy 3 base builds I actually recommend just staying put and macroing instead of doing a timing or any pressure at all. The reason for this is sentries are a waste. They are going to be useless late game so don't let him get any use out of them. Feinting an attack to get him to warp in more sentries can be helpful though just don't lose units doing it. Alternatively you could try swarmhost builds if you really would like to be aggressive. If he just transitions to colossus get 4 vipers then ultras. Be upgrading your ranged attack. The hydras will be your main source of damage the ultras are only there to tank. You only need like 3 or 4 ultras. Against a stargate 3 base build I think the best way to go is a hydra/ling timing. Go as soon as hydra speed finishes and spam zerglings behind it. As long as you do some damage you'll be fine. You have to focus fire voidrays. Don't let your hydras attack other units or buildings. Let your zerglings deal with them. Start your hive as soon as you determine that you can't kill him. Now if he goes colossus/air you want ultra/hydra/viper. If he goes templar/air you want swarmhost/ultra/hydra (vipers if he has carriers). Again 3 or 4 ultras is all you need don't overproduce them they get trapped in tight spaces. Make sure they are in front of your hydras. Most colossus timings hit at between 14:30 to 16 minutes. Have your vipers out by then and you'll have no problems. | ||
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