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On March 31 2013 10:15 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 00:31 BuiBui wrote:On March 31 2013 00:10 LucoxP wrote:
Has anyone been using Roach/Hydra to success in ZvT these days? I'm losing a lot using ling/bling/muta and I want to try Roach Hydra out but I have no build order or opener for it. I saw Stephano using it on stream yesterday and he was doing really well. He said that roach hyrda are good before the Terran maxes out. What should I transition into? When should I transition? 9ov Optional Drone scout 15H 16p 17OV 19 double queen 26ov then scouting lings 28Double queen 35 Double OV 45Ov Get 4 gas, But only saturate 3 of them. 55, Evo Wall (2), + Roach warren, + spine, (finish the whole wall with 1 or 2 queens) Double Ups, Get third base (use as macro hatch at first) Get one spore per base. Lair. cut drones at 60. If they are on two base, (no third cc), make roaches if third cc, 16 drones at third, Get 2/2 and roach speed + hydra nest. Max on roach hydra + get a 4th base when 2/2 is done Get hive for vipers + 3//3 Get 5th base Replace Roaches with ultras. for Ultra, hydra, viper. get 6th base. Looks great on paper, but can you comment on how to deal with bio-mine aggression? That composition is slow and it seems you're defending against multipronged aggression with speedivacs for the entire midgame. Maybe replays or vods?
You have faster upgrades then the terran. you have 1/1 when early mine bio pressure hit. But because their medivac count ls low, you steam roll them, deny third third, and win the game. If they dont attack you and go for a third. You hit 2/2 and max out when the terran is still 1/1 and is not maxed. You will not win outright here. But you can kill a third. or get a really good trade while you add on other base.
What really kills you is mass amounts of tanks while they are around a sim city. If this is the case you don't attack, and mass expand. while teching.
I have replays. But what you really want to watch is EG JD, or Stephano doing this style. They used to do this style alot, but now that Life won using muta bane ling. all pro's are trying to copy that style.
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On March 31 2013 09:54 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 04:12 JazVM wrote:Please help me I am desperate! I am a diamond/master zerg player and I stand 0 (!) chance against terran at the moment. It is so frustraing I don't know how to cope. Lets not talk about the midgame here, I will just rage about mines and drops, let us start at the very beginning. The reaper. Could someone tell me what just the basic opening is now and how to execute it? I have tried so many things (4Q, 100gas ling speed with 2,3 or 4 queen, even pool before hatch) but I just can't find a way to deal with it in a way so that I don't feel behind right from the beginning. How many queens? How many lings? Speed, yes or no? I am so lost in this matchup  Thanks  Lately, I have been going 14 gas/14 pool, pull drones off gas @ 100 and get ling speed. This lets you get early speedlings and queens to easily defend the reaper. Downside is, it is less economical than opening hatch first, so I try to do a little bit of pressure with the lings to even it out. If i spot a weakness, drop a baneling nest and try to attack, otherwise, I just expand like normal (Around 20 supply) and play out a macro game.
This does indeed work. and can work very well if they proxy reaper all in.
However. If they do a quick helion all in after a few reapers, you can fall behind.
I suggest going 15P, 15H, make 4 lings to chase the single reaper away. With this you can making mass drones. and get 2 more queens when your 2nd queen finishes at your main.
Then you play a normal game as if you did hatch first. The eco will be nearly the same.
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Hey guy's, I have a really simple question regarding gas timings in general. My question is, as you are getting Lair, how how many gases do you add and when do you add gases? I have heard that you get your 2nd geyser as Lair is half way complete and the other 2 when your Lair finishes. That is if you are sticking to two base and you got your first geyser at 17. Do any of you know the standard timings in which you add on your other 3 geysers?
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So recently I have been playing stephano roach max at 12 min. I seem to be executing well but missing timings. Anyways what do i do against mass void ray? I scouted his stargates and then pumped out a few hydras for them but they just got wrecked. Do i just need to make more hydras?
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On April 01 2013 06:08 PolarJace wrote:
So recently I have been playing stephano roach max at 12 min. I seem to be executing well but missing timings. Anyways what do i do against mass void ray? I scouted his stargates and then pumped out a few hydras for them but they just got wrecked. Do i just need to make more hydras?
I haven't seen your replays, but at 12 min ingame a protoss can't have 'mass' voidrays. Those voidrays won't kill 120 supply of roaches before they kill everything in his base, correct? Keep streaming in as long as you get favorable trades, and transition tech back at home. You could go for surprise mass mutas, because he won't have the economy and infrastructure to deal with it after a succesful roach max push. Or just add hydras, whatever you like.
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On April 01 2013 06:30 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 06:08 PolarJace wrote:
So recently I have been playing stephano roach max at 12 min. I seem to be executing well but missing timings. Anyways what do i do against mass void ray? I scouted his stargates and then pumped out a few hydras for them but they just got wrecked. Do i just need to make more hydras? I haven't seen your replays, but at 12 min ingame a protoss can't have 'mass' voidrays. Those voidrays won't kill 120 supply of roaches before they kill everything in his base, correct? Keep streaming in as long as you get favorable trades, and transition tech back at home. You could go for surprise mass mutas, because he won't have the economy and infrastructure to deal with it after a succesful roach max push. Or just add hydras, whatever you like.
It was more at like 15 mins when he hit me. I think my problem is i just sit in base with my roaches and dont pressure at all. I am also off on timings where i am at about 130 supply at 12 mins not full.
Replay
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seriously thinking about switching race ... mb thats the best advice in this thread ... lol
just no fun atm to paly zerg T.T
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I have been having a lot of trouble in ZvT. I used to do a 2 base ling/bling/roach timing that hits T natural at around 9min in WoL. It usually did significant damage and since I would take a 3rd during the push, I would be way ahead in most cases during mid game.
The first couple of times I have done this in HotS it has been totally ineffective. The first time he had tanks sieged on the cliff already and my blings melted before they even got to drones. The second time I ran into a few widow mines behind the wall and they smoked the rest of my lings/blings after the bust.
Is this timing no longer usable in HotS? It seems like T's new early game defensive options (faster seiged tanks, mines) are too strong for this, even if you micro it well (which I don't). Is there any way to pressure T early or are you forced into a long macro game now?
On March 31 2013 00:31 BuiBui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 00:10 LucoxP wrote:
Has anyone been using Roach/Hydra to success in ZvT these days? I'm losing a lot using ling/bling/muta and I want to try Roach Hydra out but I have no build order or opener for it. I saw Stephano using it on stream yesterday and he was doing really well. He said that roach hyrda are good before the Terran maxes out. What should I transition into? When should I transition? 9ov Optional Drone scout 15H 16p 17OV 19 double queen 26ov then scouting lings 28Double queen 35 Double OV 45Ov Get 4 gas, But only saturate 3 of them. 55, Evo Wall (2), + Roach warren, + spine, (finish the whole wall with 1 or 2 queens) Double Ups, Get third base (use as macro hatch at first) Get one spore per base. Lair. cut drones at 60. If they are on two base, (no third cc), make roaches if third cc, 16 drones at third, Get 2/2 and roach speed + hydra nest. Max on roach hydra + get a 4th base when 2/2 is done Get hive for vipers + 3//3 Get 5th base Replace Roaches with ultras. for Ultra, hydra, viper. get 6th base.
I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing.
I'm thinking about doing something similar to the above build as standard vs T now. It seems much less micro intensive.
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On April 01 2013 06:33 PolarJace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 06:30 Henk wrote:On April 01 2013 06:08 PolarJace wrote:
So recently I have been playing stephano roach max at 12 min. I seem to be executing well but missing timings. Anyways what do i do against mass void ray? I scouted his stargates and then pumped out a few hydras for them but they just got wrecked. Do i just need to make more hydras? I haven't seen your replays, but at 12 min ingame a protoss can't have 'mass' voidrays. Those voidrays won't kill 120 supply of roaches before they kill everything in his base, correct? Keep streaming in as long as you get favorable trades, and transition tech back at home. You could go for surprise mass mutas, because he won't have the economy and infrastructure to deal with it after a succesful roach max push. Or just add hydras, whatever you like. It was more at like 15 mins when he hit me. I think my problem is i just sit in base with my roaches and dont pressure at all. I am also off on timings where i am at about 130 supply at 12 mins not full. Replay
Well yeah. If you do a max roach, and you just sit in your base until he hits you at 15 minutes you're going to die to pretty much anything. You lack tech, and can't do anything. Open a game vs an easy AI, and practice the build until you can max out at 11~12 minutes. If you're at 130 supply at 12 minutes, your opening is really really weak and will most likely never do any damage to a protoss which isn't messing up completely.
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I always end up loosing my games because i macroed-up , often outmacroed my opponenets by my units mix either sux or his is always better.
For example : i just lost a zvt where i had 3/3 roaches and a good bunch of viper vs mech (thor/tank/hellbat/viking)
Abduct made a few things happen but ultimately his unit mix which had 3/1.
Or when i face a protoss deathball but I understand i should never let the protoss reach that point which bring us to the question at the end of the post.
I know i tend to rely a lot on roaches and get disappointed but i don't see any which units to use then.
I usually open roach (hatch 15, Roach warren 28, with a little push around 7/7:30), then i macro.
But in between, i have no idea what to do, and what unit i should do.
How do i prevent a toss from reaching deathball ? a mech from crushing my mix ? I feel like a miss midgames timing or tactics.
I would be delighted for any kind of help.
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On April 01 2013 06:57 Budspencer wrote:
seriously thinking about switching race ... mb thats the best advice in this thread ... lol
just no fun atm to paly zerg T.T
Not much advice to offer other than... switch! If you aren't having fun, it's time for something new. I often play random when I am getting sick of Zerg. I know I will never go pro, I am assuming it is the same for you, so you have to play what you enjoy.
Right now, the only thing I don't enjoy, is dealing with widow mines. Yes, I feel skytoss is kinda ridiculous (But I don't mind playing), but for some reason, the playstyle of dealing with widow minds just bugs the heck out of me (Not crying balance here, I just don't find it fun). Other than that, I find Zerg the most fun to play, which is why I stick with it.
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On April 01 2013 10:48 anatase wrote:
I always end up loosing my games because i macroed-up , often outmacroed my opponenets by my units mix either sux or his is always better.
For example : i just lost a zvt where i had 3/3 roaches and a good bunch of viper vs mech (thor/tank/hellbat/viking)
Abduct made a few things happen but ultimately his unit mix which had 3/1.
Or when i face a protoss deathball but I understand i should never let the protoss reach that point which bring us to the question at the end of the post.
I know i tend to rely a lot on roaches and get disappointed but i don't see any which units to use then.
I usually open roach (hatch 15, Roach warren 28, with a little push around 7/7:30), then i macro.
But in between, i have no idea what to do, and what unit i should do.
How do i prevent a toss from reaching deathball ? a mech from crushing my mix ? I feel like a miss midgames timing or tactics.
I would be delighted for any kind of help.
Pardon the double post... But I would suggest getting a modest flock of mutas. I find Muta's to be awesome in every matchup, but especially in ZvT, as you have to deal with healing rocket-ships dropping all over the place. You can also use them to harass, pick off stray tanks/mines, and intercept reinforcements. Basically, I do all of this to buy time to get to my lategame composition, which typically includes ultras/vipers.
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I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing.
Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with.
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Does anyone have any thoughts about how to open in ZvZ on Korhal City (the 4p one with your natural in the main)?
The open ramp means it's much harder to defend aggression and the randomness of the spawns means scouting can be tricky or delayed. Should i just get a bunch of speedlings and banes asap or is there a safe-ish way to macro up using buildings and queens like on small ramp maps?
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On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:Show nested quote +I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with.
Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL.
Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style
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On April 01 2013 17:38 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with. Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL. Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style
Pffft my good influences sh good .
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On April 01 2013 10:48 anatase wrote:
I always end up loosing my games because i macroed-up , often outmacroed my opponenets by my units mix either sux or his is always better.
For example : i just lost a zvt where i had 3/3 roaches and a good bunch of viper vs mech (thor/tank/hellbat/viking)
Abduct made a few things happen but ultimately his unit mix which had 3/1.
Or when i face a protoss deathball but I understand i should never let the protoss reach that point which bring us to the question at the end of the post.
I know i tend to rely a lot on roaches and get disappointed but i don't see any which units to use then.
I usually open roach (hatch 15, Roach warren 28, with a little push around 7/7:30), then i macro.
But in between, i have no idea what to do, and what unit i should do.
How do i prevent a toss from reaching deathball ? a mech from crushing my mix ? I feel like a miss midgames timing or tactics.
I would be delighted for any kind of help.
vs mech go roach hydra viper have vipers out by like 16? minutes. It's really important to trade immediately after getting vipers/consuming for energy. You could call this some sort of midgame timing if you want, where your army has a ridiculous window to trade efficiently. During this you reinforce very lightly (some roach/hydra) while preferrably teching to BL corruptor or ultra. BL/corruptor is better imo; get broods first and you should manage to kill vikings with abduct/hydras, then add corruptors as needed and switch to full BL corruptor viper comp with static D so hellions can't kill your econ.
vs P I personally don't understand very well. Roach hydra is a garbage army comp. Swarmhost hydra viper (viper out by ~15 minutes) lets you trade by a landslide against ground based comps with colossus, but kind of confusing against vr/colo. It lets you deny the P's 4th if you execute this well and limits their gas. Muta ling with constant aggression and muta retention works well too. ZvP late game seems to revolve around good viper usage and limiting their bases.
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I can tell that ZvP (platinum level) is really easy, if you go 3 base against 2 bases what you should get is SH + Hydras.
If you scout air get more Hydras than SH if he is not get more SH than Hydras and push as soon as you can.
Try to be at front of his base at 12min mark, get more Hydras + SH later on add Spire (if he went for collosi).
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On April 01 2013 12:09 roadrunner343 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 06:57 Budspencer wrote:
seriously thinking about switching race ... mb thats the best advice in this thread ... lol
just no fun atm to paly zerg T.T Not much advice to offer other than... switch! If you aren't having fun, it's time for something new. I often play random when I am getting sick of Zerg. I know I will never go pro, I am assuming it is the same for you, so you have to play what you enjoy. Right now, the only thing I don't enjoy, is dealing with widow mines. Yes, I feel skytoss is kinda ridiculous (But I don't mind playing), but for some reason, the playstyle of dealing with widow minds just bugs the heck out of me (Not crying balance here, I just don't find it fun). Other than that, I find Zerg the most fun to play, which is why I stick with it.
YEAH ... thats what iv thought too ... but i kinda enjoy zerg as well .. i mean its the race of my choice since wol coming out... and now i tryed something new that i never tryed bevor in ZvT ... i neuralparasited his medis and heald mine ^^ xD i think if u can scout the bioball u can get a chance in straight up teamfights ^^ but i have to admit that this needs a lot of micro :O so i would like to see stephano or someone trying this  :LALALALALLAALAL HOPE WILL DIE AT LAST
sry for my bad englisch :D
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On April 01 2013 10:48 anatase wrote:
I always end up loosing my games because i macroed-up , often outmacroed my opponenets by my units mix either sux or his is always better.
For example : i just lost a zvt where i had 3/3 roaches and a good bunch of viper vs mech (thor/tank/hellbat/viking)
Abduct made a few things happen but ultimately his unit mix which had 3/1.
Or when i face a protoss deathball but I understand i should never let the protoss reach that point which bring us to the question at the end of the post.
I know i tend to rely a lot on roaches and get disappointed but i don't see any which units to use then.
I usually open roach (hatch 15, Roach warren 28, with a little push around 7/7:30), then i macro.
But in between, i have no idea what to do, and what unit i should do.
How do i prevent a toss from reaching deathball ? a mech from crushing my mix ? I feel like a miss midgames timing or tactics.
I would be delighted for any kind of help.
I have similar problem, lets try to find solutions together. So lets see, zvp first.
For zvp i am aiming to open 3hatch into roach ling pressure mid game if he doesn't go stargate opener. I find it the most comfortable to play with. What you should do is if not preventing his 3rd going up at least to trade some decent blows on his army. Thats a part when you have to decide what composition will you use. Is he heavy on colossus and no void rays? You go roach corruptor and later on viper and ultra. Is he going mix of air and colossus? Get hydra swarm host viper. I think the main point after he gets 3rd is constantly denying him 4th and try to starve him to the end while doing decent trades.
Now after he takes 3rd there are 2 options i see, either drops in main and denying him 4th or viper centric play pulling colossus in your army and reducing his aoe.
After he gets his void ray colossus ht army its kinda hard. In theory swarm hosts push hts back, vipers pull colossus and hydras kill void rays.
For zvt vs mech i think ultra ling with vipers should be good? If he doesn't have air start mixing broodlords and try to have that dynamic brood > ultra > brood etc. For mid game roach hydra viper should be good too.
I think the worst thing you can do is sit behind on 200 200 and do nothing. When you are maxed you have to start trading, maybe attacking from different places, drops in main etc.
edit: ahh, i see KawaiiRice posted similar suggestions
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EPT
