On March 29 2013 08:19 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am seriously confused on how you engage a bio army with a dozen widow mines scurrying around in front of them. You cant punish them by attacking while they arent burrowed because they burrow so quickly that if you try that you just lose everything. With a dozen of them there with a bio force behind it you cant send in handfuls of zerglings because its just throwing units away and you MIGHT set off one of them. + Show Spoiler [attempting to punish unburrowed mines] +
I have some thoughts in general. One way to look at this situation is: how am I supposed to engage this ? (your thought) Basically you have to engage from different angles if your really want to a-click with ling/bling/muta. (never engage a T only right in his front cause this is his strongest side) But I want to get to some other possible questions that are in front of this situation: Why does the Terran have more/equal amount of bases than me? How are my upgrades/tech and how are his? (I can't see it from the video beside your 2/2 ground) And now some more thoughts beside this engagement, since I read this awesome article about savior (sc:bw)king of the battlefield part 2 I would recommend you to read at least part 2 where the author is explaining how savior is playing his TvZ. And yes I know that this is about sc:bw but it isn't just about the units and the unitcomposition it's more about how you play your race. Now some facts from this article: Move your army: in order to avoid to get stomped from a T- or P-ball you have to be spread out on the map. Use the map to your advantage and don't get trapped inside your base, because if you're in this situation and you lose pretty much all your army you have no chance to reproduce a "ball". Your units will stream out of their eggs and the T and P will just eat them in small numbers again and again and you have to gg out. This should be a fundamental stone in your strategy as Z. I think your unitcomposition is just fine (ling/bling/muta) and now to another point. Keep the T or P in his damn base: like on my previous point and the crucial thing about getting trapped in a corner you have to use your advantages with ling/muta. They are fast and mobile so that's basically the perfect attribute in order to prevent your enemy from leaving his base. You don't have to sacrifice your mutas in order to deal damage. Only their presence is enough to get the T to struggle about it. If the number is good (not too many but i guess it should be around 8 - 10) they become a threat where if the T ignores them they can do quite some damage and if he goes for defense you just pull out and harass him at some other point. On the other hand you have cheap lings which are perfect for simultaneous attacks at different points (like i said earlier don't attack a T right head on his front esp. since he will have too much splashdamage) I think this should be the most important points about to improve your play and if you read the article you will find some more advices in order to get the most out of certain situations. And if you want to see the tactic in action and how effective it is I would recommend you game 1 Life vs Flash from MLG life vs flash game 1
The T I was against was equal in upgrades and his 4th was a planetary, which kind of nullifies ling runby's for the most part. I probably couldve expanded because he was playing defensive at his 3rd until he moved out with his ball (turrets in the main and nat), but I am honestly just not confident in my MU's yet (especially when it comes to defending 5 bases from speed vacs). The main reason I lost that game was that single engagement though because I just had no clue how to engage and thought that catching mines so far out of position would be favorable to me. Also, while that Life vs Flash game Life had great control, Flash wasnt utilizing widow mines like he could have and also never got the quick-burrow ability for the mines so they were even weaker in engagements. He had random mines around the map, which I personally find pretty easy to deal with and only had ~2-3 with his army. I can send in 50 lings in small groups at a time to defuse 10 mines, but by the time the last one is defused the first one is ready and that doesnt even count his bio force behind that. In addition, Planet S favors quick units and movement a bit more because it is such a circular map. Newkirk doesnt favor that at all and there is basically no usage of the vertical space until the late game (which was about to be entered since we were claiming 4th/5th bases) and T even only has 3 sides to defend instead of 4, so hes never in the open. I do need to work on flanking a bit more though.
I always play the standard 15h15P opening in ZvZ. However once in 5 ZvZ i'm faced with a dreaded 6pool 2spine rush. How do i stop this?
The enemy player arrives with 6lings & 2 drones around the time my Pool is ready. I can't kill the spines with drones since 6 lings with reinforcements utterly destroy them. Evading them is pointless since i'm dead once the two spines finish.
Is it just drone scout early & cancel my hatch if I see this or its an automatic GG?
Is there a way to hold this with a hatch first build?
On March 30 2013 03:34 Kraelog wrote: Rush defence: How to stop 6pool 2spine in ZvZ?
I always play the standard 15h15P opening in ZvZ. However once in 5 ZvZ i'm faced with a dreaded 6pool 2spine rush. How do i stop this?
The enemy player arrives with 6lings & 2 drones around the time my Pool is ready. I can't kill the spines with drones since 6 lings with reinforcements utterly destroy them. Evading them is pointless since i'm dead once the two spines finish.
Is it just drone scout early & cancel my hatch if I see this or its an automatic GG?
Is there a way to hold this with a hatch first build?
hatch first is always a bit risky in ZvZ. 14/15p 15/16h is more valid imho.
note: he can't build two spines at once AND have 6 lings all within a 6/7 pool. Done correctly, he has 6 lings with one spine and lings incoming.
however, in case of 15h there is no point of not canceling the hatch. You need the money from hatch to balance your lost mining time. Your goal is to focus the spine with 4 drones at ALL times. if he engages them, put them on hold position and engage with the rest. if he does not manually focus the drones, he won't attack the four. Once he goes after the other stuff again, RUN and continue attacking the spine with the four. You should focus on not losing too many drones.
This you have to repeat until lings/queen pop. From there on you have won. Just A-move everything (and continue attacking the spine with 4 if needed) and pull back hp-low drones.
Short version:
4 drones @ spine - if attacked, "hold position" - and attack-move with other drones - continue attacking spine with 4 drones
other drones run around - a-move if 4 drones are attacked - run after lings engage
wait for queen and lings - a-move when ready
NOTE: this is VERY micro-intense. If done well, you have a chance to repell 6/7-pool. If not (one little mistake) you're right. It's auto gg cause of your late pool
On March 30 2013 03:34 Kraelog wrote: Rush defence: How to stop 6pool 2spine in ZvZ?
I always play the standard 15h15P opening in ZvZ. However once in 5 ZvZ i'm faced with a dreaded 6pool 2spine rush. How do i stop this?
The enemy player arrives with 6lings & 2 drones around the time my Pool is ready. I can't kill the spines with drones since 6 lings with reinforcements utterly destroy them. Evading them is pointless since i'm dead once the two spines finish.
Is it just drone scout early & cancel my hatch if I see this or its an automatic GG?
Is there a way to hold this with a hatch first build?
My best advice is to 15 pool 15 hatch. It's much safer and you don't lose much economy doing it as compared to 15 hatch. If you insist on 15 hatch though you can always just wait until the last second and transfer your drones to your expansion. So for instance get your pool up and get zerglings building and don't actually attack the spines and zerglings. Just move everything to your expansion. Now you get to fight with his spines uprooted for the first part of the fight. If you did it right you should have enough to finish him off.
On March 30 2013 07:42 Corsica wrote: how to counter fcking 20 templars with zealots and archons with 3-4 immortals in lategame??? Its not like we have emp...
Swarmhosts. You get swarmhosts vs that composition you win no problem.
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
Bullshit.
Should watch replays before saying something like this, especially to someone who has beaten this composition a lot more then it has beaten them (I have lost to this composition 2-3 times since release and I know where I messed up to lose the game). I am beating GM korean protosses who do this. I just smashed quantic's hwangsin when he went mass tempest/voidray/templar. Like I smashed it so hard.
Now i have found it, its zvp gm toss late game.SC2Replay, thats not really what i would call skytoss either the only thing in the sky you crushed in this game were his voidrys while attacking your hatchery. Not really convincing.
On March 30 2013 09:08 Eiskaffee wrote: Now i have found it, its zvp gm toss late game.SC2Replay, thats not really what i would call skytoss either the only thing in the sky you crushed in this game were his voidrys while attacking your hatchery. Not really convincing.
ok I see you are just going to take anything and say it's not possible. K you can keep complaining about it there are plenty of replays show casing me beating it, I rarely lose late game zvp so I know what works. If you want to say it's impossible will that's your problem you are just being incredibly stubborn I have no idea what you are looking for then.
I'll give you 1 replay of me vs hwangsin where he goes tempest/voidray/templar and gets smashed. I expect you to say "that's not what I am talking about" but if this doesn't please you then nothing will and you are complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
In zvt terrans are blindly putting down missile turrets in anticipation of mutas. If I see this should i go infestor or accept the fact I will not be able to harass with mutas and still tech spire? NA Diamond.
On March 30 2013 09:32 Tikihut wrote: In zvt terrans are blindly putting down missile turrets in anticipation of mutas. If I see this should i go infestor or accept the fact I will not be able to harass with mutas and still tech spire? NA Diamond.
Still go mutalisks. You don't have to do economic damage (killing scv's) for mutalisks to be worthwhile. They are good at forcing turrets (which his spending minerals elsewhere).
You also want mutalisks for drop play, right now drop play is very strong with medivac boosters and you want mutalisks until you can get a solid economy and afford static defense at your bases.
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
Must be really hard to micro this:/ i only have about 100 apm. What should prioritize?
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
Must be really hard to micro this:/ i only have about 100 apm. What should prioritize?
It is yes you have to not get feedbacked (which is hard since feedback has same range or longer then abduct) have to have ultra/swarmhost locusts in front while hydra are in back so that templar can be killed.
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
Must be really hard to micro this:/ i only have about 100 apm. What should prioritize?
It is yes you have to not get feedbacked (which is hard since feedback has same range or longer then abduct) have to have ultra/swarmhost locusts in front while hydra are in back so that templar can be killed.
i have a question about it. how do you beat P if they add 6-8 carrier instead of just mass voidray? your hydras will melt superfast. just go less hydra and more corruptor might work in theory but have you a replay of a real skytoss + support army? i think once P players start realizing how insanely good carriers are Z will have a huge problem ^^
would be awesome if you have replays against something like 7 carriers, 10 voids and support.
On March 29 2013 02:34 Eiskaffee wrote: How can i win against hardcore turtle skytoss?
It depends what race you are. If you're zerg, it is impossible to beat skytoss with templar support. You just have to do significant damage in the mid game so the protoss cannot generate a four base economy to get that army. If you're terran, just do what you would do against any protoss composition, mass drop play as skytoss is pretty immobile. If drop play doesn't work, you want to get a mass viking ghost medivac composition.
No it's not. You can beat skytoss + templar support.
You need swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper or you will never have a chance. The swarmhost/ultra tank the damage from splash and will kill colo/templar where the hydra/viper can abduct and kill the sky units or the colo then sky units. I have only lost to mass air + templar once, and I played like an idiot to lose it to.
Must be really hard to micro this:/ i only have about 100 apm. What should prioritize?
It is yes you have to not get feedbacked (which is hard since feedback has same range or longer then abduct) have to have ultra/swarmhost locusts in front while hydra are in back so that templar can be killed.
i have a question about it. how do you beat P if they add 6-8 carrier instead of just mass voidray? your hydras will melt superfast. just go less hydra and more corruptor might work in theory but have you a replay of a real skytoss + support army? i think once P players start realizing how insanely good carriers are Z will have a huge problem ^^
would be awesome if you have replays against something like 7 carriers, 10 voids and support.
Husky just did a cast and the game ended up almost exactly like this. It was Blade vs EXID.
On a side note, blade, was that you? Korean master league game.
Anyways, in that game, Blade when Swarmhost, hydralisk, viper, ultra. There were mistakes made on both sides (Obviously, we're human) but you can get the basic idea. Abduct carriers into hydras and use SH/Ultralisks to tank/dps. It seemed to work very well.
EDIT: Well, he had the carriers anyways. Not so much the voids. Toss went Archon, Zealot, Templar, Phoenix, Carrier.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HshYIrh.jpg)
