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On April 01 2013 17:38 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with. Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL. Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style
can you talk a bit more how are you using swarm hosts in zvt agaisnt bio?  I am planing on using them as well but dunno how to play it out propperly
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How do you deal with a marine + widow mines attack?
When i want to make them go off by sending in 1 ling at the time, it takes so long :/ and then, when the mines are on cd, i go and kill his army, but then the mines are back up and kill the rest of my army.
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On April 01 2013 22:54 thOr6136 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 17:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with. Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL. Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style can you talk a bit more how are you using swarm hosts in zvt agaisnt bio? I am planing on using them as well but dunno how to play it out propperly
I've only played two games with it so far and I only have theory so far.
SH and muta ling bling can be treated as two separate armies that you can interchangably use as offense and defense for either purpose. SH can also teleport anywhere on the map thanks to nydus. It's not good to move them together as one army since it's super slow and makes you weak to drops. Keeping them separate lets you pressure T super hard or bait T into attacking you into trying to target SH's (which lets you flank them). Defending should be fine if you just retreat SH's and second army.
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On April 01 2013 23:50 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 22:54 thOr6136 wrote:On April 01 2013 17:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with. Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL. Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style can you talk a bit more how are you using swarm hosts in zvt agaisnt bio? I am planing on using them as well but dunno how to play it out propperly I've only played two games with it so far and I only have theory so far. SH and muta ling bling can be treated as two separate armies that you can interchangably use as offense and defense for either purpose. SH can also teleport anywhere on the map thanks to nydus. It's not good to move them together as one army since it's super slow and makes you weak to drops. Keeping them separate lets you pressure T super hard or bait T into attacking you into trying to target SH's (which lets you flank them). Defending should be fine if you just retreat SH's and second army.
Yea, sounds good and also delaying pushes with SH's should be good with constant burrow unburrow movement. While you can do many things with muta ling bling army. And doing things like having nydus in an offesnive position, moving them in, spawn locusts, go back, or jump between expos for defending. It would be nice if you could pop out whole army at once like in bw ^^.
On hive tech, would you add vipers for blinding cloud to protect swarm hosts?
Oh and btw, do you think it should be better to open with fast lair for mutas?
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On April 02 2013 00:28 thOr6136 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 23:50 KawaiiRice wrote:On April 01 2013 22:54 thOr6136 wrote:On April 01 2013 17:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On April 01 2013 13:54 Ender142 wrote:I also saw Stephano doing very well with Roach/Hydra against Bio/Mine today. He just made sure to keep a few overseers in front of his army and sniped mines as soon as he saw them from range. He had Infestors as well, which he was still able to use very effectively despite their nerfs and people generally claiming they are useless now. In contrast, he lost against the same T player that used the same bio/mine strat in an earlier game using ling/bling/muta, and his micro is very good. It seems like you have to not make a single mistake with ling/bling/muta against bio/mine to win, which I definitely have no hope of doing. Ok, scratch this earlier post... I have seen Roach/Hydra losing almost every time against T since I saw Stephano win with it earlier. Not sure what you can do against T. Ultras seem to do ok, but by the time you are there T's tier 1 unit mass is still too much to deal with. Muta ling bling into ultra into broods works fine just like it did in WoL. Am experimenting with muta ling bling into swarmhosts rather than ultras atm but it's a completely different style can you talk a bit more how are you using swarm hosts in zvt agaisnt bio? I am planing on using them as well but dunno how to play it out propperly I've only played two games with it so far and I only have theory so far. SH and muta ling bling can be treated as two separate armies that you can interchangably use as offense and defense for either purpose. SH can also teleport anywhere on the map thanks to nydus. It's not good to move them together as one army since it's super slow and makes you weak to drops. Keeping them separate lets you pressure T super hard or bait T into attacking you into trying to target SH's (which lets you flank them). Defending should be fine if you just retreat SH's and second army. Yea, sounds good and also delaying pushes with SH's should be good with constant burrow unburrow movement. While you can do many things with muta ling bling army. And doing things like having nydus in an offesnive position, moving them in, spawn locusts, go back, or jump between expos for defending. It would be nice if you could pop out whole army at once like in bw ^^. On hive tech, would you add vipers for blinding cloud to protect swarm hosts? Oh and btw, do you think it should be better to open with fast lair for mutas?
Infestors and ultras. I don't like viper too much. Also my mutas tend to be late like 12 minutes..earlier just hurts your econ.
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Hey guys. I've been having a lot of trouble winning due to unit production, they always seem to out-build me no matter what I do. I've been doing a 14 Hatchery opening usually, but I still get outproduced. (Yes, I'm using Queens)
I was wondering, when do you guys build extra hatcheries in your main? Or do you just expand instead to a quick third?
Also, do you think Overlord drops while still on Hatchery are viable? Burrow as well?
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C'mon guys, I can't see that I have received any feedback / help after posting in this thread. I can't fucking get a single win vs terran these days. All they do is bio / mine. Then all they do is expand while dropping medivacs all over the map and probably makes some pushes with their MMM + mine army. The game always ends up in very lategame where I can't mine anymore minerals and dies due to cost inefficient trades. I'm fucking tired of all those terrans shitting on me....
C'mon, just give me 1 good build that can rape this bio / mine style hard for god sake.
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On April 02 2013 03:57 Rahlekk wrote:
Hey guys. I've been having a lot of trouble winning due to unit production, they always seem to out-build me no matter what I do. I've been doing a 14 Hatchery opening usually, but I still get outproduced. (Yes, I'm using Queens)
I was wondering, when do you guys build extra hatcheries in your main? Or do you just expand instead to a quick third?
Also, do you think Overlord drops while still on Hatchery are viable? Burrow as well?
which MU are you talking about?
go for 14 pool 16 hatch ZvP and 15 hatch 16 pool ZvZ and ZvT if you want to play hatch first ZvZ.
if you have over say 600 minerals (and no incoming use for it) its time to build a macrohatch and queen for it. ofc you can get a 3rd instead of a macrohatch if you feel safe. depends on MU etc. if you are lower level player it might be safer to just get a macrohatch instead of a 3rd base and start getting 3rd bases once you got a better feeling when you are safe to do so.
you cant go overlord drop on hatchery tech, only overlord speed. both ovispeed and burrow are 95% useless right now imo because they are just too expensive/take too long to be viable. blizzard will need to lower time and cost to make it usable. which would be awesome btw since P and T got huge buffs early game and especially early game defense while Z got literally not a single buff to early game...
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Hi there. I was wondering about what sort of thing I should be doing/looking for with my first OL. I generally send it in the vicinity of my opponents base, but I feel like if I send it in its almost certainly going to get killed (esp against T and Z). Should I be sending it in in the first place? Also what am I looking for if I do? I'm in plat if it makes a difference (perhaps different common strategies, i dunno).
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Against P and Z you should send it to his natural, against T you should place it somewhere nearby his natural.
I'm sending 2nd overlord on the opposite side, usually closer to his main.
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On April 02 2013 05:27 packrat386 wrote:
Hi there. I was wondering about what sort of thing I should be doing/looking for with my first OL. I generally send it in the vicinity of my opponents base, but I feel like if I send it in its almost certainly going to get killed (esp against T and Z). Should I be sending it in in the first place? Also what am I looking for if I do? I'm in plat if it makes a difference (perhaps different common strategies, i dunno).
I would say it really depends on the map.
Versus P you can send it in safely (watch for cannons if you get there really late) and see if they do a gateway expand/nexus first or forge first.
Versus Z you send it to the natural and see if there is a hatchery. You should see if it is hatch first/hatch timing in general. This gives you an idea whent he queen pops. If you scout hatch first, send your OV to the main an check for gas timing.
Versus Terran you have to be cautious. Versus the trendy reaper build there is no risk but versus marine openings your OV theoretically are in danger everywhere. However I find that terrans are to lazy to send their marines out in to scout (low master level). On some maps (like Daybreak for instance) you can send your first OV to the edge of the ramp and scout for barracks, even if your ov gets instantly attacked by the marine it still can retreat to the highground. This also works on other maps, just be cautious.
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On April 02 2013 03:57 Rahlekk wrote:
Hey guys. I've been having a lot of trouble winning due to unit production, they always seem to out-build me no matter what I do. I've been doing a 14 Hatchery opening usually, but I still get outproduced. (Yes, I'm using Queens)
I was wondering, when do you guys build extra hatcheries in your main? Or do you just expand instead to a quick third?
Also, do you think Overlord drops while still on Hatchery are viable? Burrow as well?
I start building them after 3 base when I feel like it. ZvP it seems like zergs go some variation of 15pool 16hatch ~23/24 hatch and then a macro hatch at ~6:40~7 minutes, then any other hatches I add when I feel I need them.
On April 02 2013 04:09 Siggeh wrote:
C'mon guys, I can't see that I have received any feedback / help after posting in this thread. I can't fucking get a single win vs terran these days. All they do is bio / mine. Then all they do is expand while dropping medivacs all over the map and probably makes some pushes with their MMM + mine army. The game always ends up in very lategame where I can't mine anymore minerals and dies due to cost inefficient trades. I'm fucking tired of all those terrans shitting on me....
C'mon, just give me 1 good build that can rape this bio / mine style hard for god sake.
Try using three control groups (1 muta 2 1/2 army 3 1/2 army) and having good overlord spread to shut down drops and flank better. Bio mine isn't very strong at all if you can out-multitask the T and flank with ling bane on both sides.
Roach hydra is harder to manage since you can't really pick off drops in airspace or chase them once they boost. I hate roach hydra and highly don't recommend it.
Also there is no secret build that can reliably beat Terran. A lot of Z's like going pool gas or gas pool on 2 base like Life, I go 3hatch gasless. Just play better, ZvT is quite easy for me in mid gm level.
On April 02 2013 05:27 packrat386 wrote:
Hi there. I was wondering about what sort of thing I should be doing/looking for with my first OL. I generally send it in the vicinity of my opponents base, but I feel like if I send it in its almost certainly going to get killed (esp against T and Z). Should I be sending it in in the first place? Also what am I looking for if I do? I'm in plat if it makes a difference (perhaps different common strategies, i dunno).
Scout for double gas early on, if theres a 2nd/3rd rax at like ~6:30/7 minutes or a 3rd cc or cloakshee vs T (scout earlier if they didn't expo, later if they did)
vs Z I like having an ovvie near their ramp to send in about 5:20? to see if they make a burst of lings or have drones coming down the ramp. Earlier or later depending on their opening (hatch gas pool, hatch pool gas, pool hatch gas). Second ovvie can be in front of their base or watching their 3rd, I see a lot of either one.
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This has probably been asked already, but it is late, I want to sleep and I am pretty tilted so looking for the answer of this question in previous posts is not something I want to do.
So basically I'm a high Masters player currently ranked 1 in my division. ZvZ is going great, ZvT is kinda map-depended and ZvP is just fucking horrible. I can't seem to win any games where people go Skytoss or for VoidRay Colossus/Templar. Skytoss is something that I don't hit as much on ladder, but the other unit composition is like 3/4 of the games I play ZvP. Even if I know it is coming I have no idea what unit composition to build. Most of the games I play people who I feel like are generally worse than me with weaker mechanics and macro, judging my the replays, but no matter how ahead I am what basically happens is this:
1. Protoss turtles on 2-3 bases.
2. Goes Voidrays so I respond with Hydras.
3. When I attack he breaks out like >3 storms and obliterates me.
Coruptors are not even worth it as they just get demolished by the new VoidRays. If I try to push the game to the late stages and get Vipers they just get feedbacked before they can do ANYTHING. Same situation with infestors. Please, for the love of god, HELP ME!
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Is there any way to save a third base when Protoss sends 8+ zealots at it off an FFE? They come so early I barely have any roaches and lings just die instantly. Should I just let it die and counter?
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On April 02 2013 11:54 Falcon-sw wrote:
Is there any way to save a third base when Protoss sends 8+ zealots at it off an FFE? They come so early I barely have any roaches and lings just die instantly. Should I just let it die and counter?
We would either need a replay or exact timings. 8 zealots = 800 minerals, so it isn't like the protoss is doing this for free. Depending on the timing, get more roaches for defense. Otherwise, get more lings. I need more information to give a more in depth reply.
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Hi KawaiiRice,
Sorry, this is a noob question but do you know how many drones you should have per say 5 min, 10 min?
Also, while droning, how many spines and spores should you have? These are my questions because I have no idea when to drone up or when to make an army.
Thanks for the help!
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On April 02 2013 08:55 AnYvia wrote:
This has probably been asked already, but it is late, I want to sleep and I am pretty tilted so looking for the answer of this question in previous posts is not something I want to do.
So basically I'm a high Masters player currently ranked 1 in my division. ZvZ is going great, ZvT is kinda map-depended and ZvP is just fucking horrible. I can't seem to win any games where people go Skytoss or for VoidRay Colossus/Templar. Skytoss is something that I don't hit as much on ladder, but the other unit composition is like 3/4 of the games I play ZvP. Even if I know it is coming I have no idea what unit composition to build. Most of the games I play people who I feel like are generally worse than me with weaker mechanics and macro, judging my the replays, but no matter how ahead I am what basically happens is this:
1. Protoss turtles on 2-3 bases.
2. Goes Voidrays so I respond with Hydras.
3. When I attack he breaks out like >3 storms and obliterates me.
Coruptors are not even worth it as they just get demolished by the new VoidRays. If I try to push the game to the late stages and get Vipers they just get feedbacked before they can do ANYTHING. Same situation with infestors. Please, for the love of god, HELP ME!
You can do some midgame timings if they open stargate. ~5:45 -> 10 minute speed(?)roach + speedling bust (although this isn't reactionary at all), hydra speedling to deny the 3rd, and I've heard of some queen swarmhost (w/w/o nydus).
I've also seen a korean z mass expand against stargate (5 bases) with just lings and make over 25 corruptors, then trade with P vr/colo before it gets too big and just trade inefficiently with an econ lead. Ling ultra after spire play works wonders since it forces a lot of phoenixes but basically you have to do some midgame trades that might be inefficient and rely on superior econ.
I use ultra hydra double nydus + drop style on big maps like whirlwind and newkirk which let me wear down P econ really easily once they have 4 bases or more (a requirement for mass air).
On smaller maps ling hydra -> sh -> vipers to pick off stuff -> more hydras or corruptor+viper+spores with bunch of sh's to zone out HT's are fine too. Just play a game of attrition and keep abducting air/colos each locust wave (so vipers don't get fb'd). If you manage to deny P's 4th base they will run out of gas soon. If not it gets really tricky; I recommend nydusing/dropping to their main and making SH corruptor viper w/ a few ultras and wearing them down as best you can. Make sure to keep the 5th down; if you are equal bases and didn't trade well enough you most likely lose soon.
On April 02 2013 11:54 Falcon-sw wrote:
Is there any way to save a third base when Protoss sends 8+ zealots at it off an FFE? They come so early I barely have any roaches and lings just die instantly. Should I just let it die and counter?
Yes, easily. Scout if they are upgrading +1 from the forge (there's a blue ball on the bottom right pad of the forge) to see these early gate timings, then see if they are taking gases at nat (or doing that + cutting gas at main), then make 5/6 roaches with some lings. If you went for a ling evo opener 2 spines at 3rd will work too.
edit: you need a roach warren by 6:30/6:40 though, if you make it later or make roaches too late you will probably take damage.
On April 02 2013 12:34 HeyAngel_01 wrote:
Hi KawaiiRice,
Sorry, this is a noob question but do you know how many drones you should have per say 5 min, 10 min?
Also, while droning, how many spines and spores should you have? These are my questions because I have no idea when to drone up or when to make an army.
Thanks for the help!
Depends on matchups/openers/how optimally you defend some pressure. In this replay I just opened: ZvT, 3 hatch gasless vs reaper exp w/ 3 reapers I have:
5 minutes: 19 drones and lost 2 to reapers
10 minutes: 66 drones and lost 6 drones (should be more; I have 883 minerals, 17 larva and terrible injects).
You can't really go by benchmarks in real games but they're useful if you're grinding a game by yourself or sorta measuring how behind you are if you take a lot of damage (however, this would be relative to optimal play, not relative to how behind your opp was for doing the aggro).
edit: depends on the game, ZvT I usually make 1 spine and a spore if i see FE fact port. ZvP I make one spore against stargate, some Z's make like 4. Really depends.
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Okay so when you have large muta vs muta battles, generally i see the muta flocks just kind of hang around each other and kill each other. you wouldn't target fire after a point. what if you only took a group of units to target fire, say out of your group of mutas shift command attack a set of mutas for 3 different sets of mutalisks, i.e. you make 3 groups of units to target fire 3 different units at the same time. will it work? why or why not? is there some number of groups that one can use to make it effective?
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I am plat in HotS (formally Silver/Gold in Wol.) I normally try to tech to ultras and win with 3/3 ultra-ling. Can a higher-level player give advise if I should continue to go ultralisk and try to improve on mechanics or if I really should use more refined strategies.
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On April 03 2013 01:03 [F_]aths wrote:
I am plat in HotS (formally Silver/Gold in Wol.) I normally try to tech to ultras and win with 3/3 ultra-ling. Can a higher-level player give advise if I should continue to go ultralisk and try to improve on mechanics or if I really should use more refined strategies.
It is always worth it to work on mechanics, and you can get to diamond just by making more stuff than your opponent. And if it is working for you, why change? That said, I like following a build with a couple of transitions. It makes you a bit more robust to strategies that zerglings are weak to (like heavy zealot 5-6Gate or Zealot/Archon pushes). I also find it to be more fun, making a variety of units depending on the situation or gamefase. Makes burnout less probable.
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EPT
