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On April 11 2013 16:49 kuruptt wrote:
Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy?
Eh it doesn't work when toss goes stargate play unless toss messes up. Nobody is going swarmhosts because nobody knows how to use the unit. Everyone who ever uses the unit uses it awfully.
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On April 11 2013 17:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 16:49 kuruptt wrote:
Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy? Eh it doesn't work when toss goes stargate play unless toss messes up. Nobody is going swarmhosts because nobody knows how to use the unit. Everyone who ever uses the unit uses it awfully.
Mutas are strong for sure, but some players have shown that SH can be used in rather aggressive contain builds, CatZ does it a lot and I believe Curious did it in a GSL or MLG or something. I think the SH have a lot of potential, but the meta at the moment is mutas, however I'm sure Protoss will figure it out fairly soon and Zergs may move towards SH, people just need to figure out how to use them. Executing mutas is fairly straightforward. Get mutas --> harass and keep toss in their base --> expand a lot and mass muta --> transition into whatever beats toss composition once you have at least 4/5 bases. The tricky bit is protoss timings when you're transitioning or trying to build your muta count, and if you lose a bunch of mutas to storm or blink stalkers because you're not watching it's gg.
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On April 11 2013 16:49 kuruptt wrote:
Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy?
I'm not sure I understand your first question.
As far as mutas go, they are a good response to a robotics bay when the game is to close to call and you think you may die if he gets enough colossus out.
If the protoss has been doing some kind of warp prism or immortal play and you know he wants to start making colossus this is the ideal time for a muta switch. You don't want to do it before or after he builds the colossus because you want his resources tied up. You have to be sneaky and you probably will have to base trade even if you're sneaky. Muta/ling is far superior to a colossus ball when it comes to base trades though so you usually win.
Being sneaky means not showing him your army. You can hide the mutas but if he sees your army is small he will suspect something so do your best to make sure he doesn't see anything and thinks that he just couldn't find your army.
The times that you would not want to do this muta switch is when he's already got a stargate or a large amount of blinkstalkers built.
For the same reason that mutas are good in this situation swarmhosts are bad. He has a robotics facility build already so he has quick access to warp prism and observers. He's making a robotics bay so he's gonna make colossus which are very good at killing locust. And swarmhosts are just about the slowest least base trade worthy unit in the game.
Summary
1: Things are looking bad
2: Oh shit he's making colossus
3: No stargate or blinkstalkers
4: We have time to get mutas and kill his economy or base trade
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On April 11 2013 17:38 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 17:24 blade55555 wrote:On April 11 2013 16:49 kuruptt wrote:
Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy? Eh it doesn't work when toss goes stargate play unless toss messes up. Nobody is going swarmhosts because nobody knows how to use the unit. Everyone who ever uses the unit uses it awfully. Mutas are strong for sure, but some players have shown that SH can be used in rather aggressive contain builds, CatZ does it a lot and I believe Curious did it in a GSL or MLG or something. I think the SH have a lot of potential, but the meta at the moment is mutas, however I'm sure Protoss will figure it out fairly soon and Zergs may move towards SH, people just need to figure out how to use them. Executing mutas is fairly straightforward. Get mutas --> harass and keep toss in their base --> expand a lot and mass muta --> transition into whatever beats toss composition once you have at least 4/5 bases. The tricky bit is protoss timings when you're transitioning or trying to build your muta count, and if you lose a bunch of mutas to storm or blink stalkers because you're not watching it's gg.
Oh I use swarmhosts exclusively in zvp. I rarely lose zvp I was just saying the pro zergs that do it just use them awfully. They either do a 2 base nydus/queen which is a strong all in, but it's not that good especially if toss sees it coming or they just use them stupidly and they die dumb.
I have been using swarmhosts since early february and haven't struggled in zvp since february. If it weren't for the swarmhost I would probably still be hating zvp but I enjoy it now because I win it most of the time  .
I have also been crushing late game toss deathballs while most zergs still struggle vs them (pure voidray/templar easy peasy lemon squeezy, etc).
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On April 11 2013 18:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 17:38 LardMaster wrote:On April 11 2013 17:24 blade55555 wrote:On April 11 2013 16:49 kuruptt wrote:
Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy? Eh it doesn't work when toss goes stargate play unless toss messes up. Nobody is going swarmhosts because nobody knows how to use the unit. Everyone who ever uses the unit uses it awfully. Mutas are strong for sure, but some players have shown that SH can be used in rather aggressive contain builds, CatZ does it a lot and I believe Curious did it in a GSL or MLG or something. I think the SH have a lot of potential, but the meta at the moment is mutas, however I'm sure Protoss will figure it out fairly soon and Zergs may move towards SH, people just need to figure out how to use them. Executing mutas is fairly straightforward. Get mutas --> harass and keep toss in their base --> expand a lot and mass muta --> transition into whatever beats toss composition once you have at least 4/5 bases. The tricky bit is protoss timings when you're transitioning or trying to build your muta count, and if you lose a bunch of mutas to storm or blink stalkers because you're not watching it's gg. Oh I use swarmhosts exclusively in zvp. I rarely lose zvp I was just saying the pro zergs that do it just use them awfully. They either do a 2 base nydus/queen which is a strong all in, but it's not that good especially if toss sees it coming or they just use them stupidly and they die dumb. I have been using swarmhosts since early february and haven't struggled in zvp since february. If it weren't for the swarmhost I would probably still be hating zvp but I enjoy it now because I win it most of the time . I have also been crushing late game toss deathballs while most zergs still struggle vs them (pure voidray/templar easy peasy lemon squeezy, etc).
+1 Will vouch for this, do what this man says. I use hydra/swarm host into vipers and ultras in all my macro ZvPs unless they open robo in which case I open mutas first. I only seem to lose those games if I completely mismicro my entire army drastically or forget static defence at my bases. This is against usually a collosus/void ray based army, although sometimes they know what they're doing and get templar too. But it's an extremely solid, non-gimmick composition. This is at mid-masters level on EU.
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On April 11 2013 12:26 FireMonkey wrote:
how do i keep my money low im diamond protoss and i keep money low all the time but as zerg i always end up flooding atleast 1.5k minerals and barely enough gas, I still win heaps of games against diamonds as zerg but i feel uncomfortable with so many minerals... it usually starts flooding around 14-15 minutes in. I try building everything i can i try go mass lings to keep it low but it just goes back up in no time
by the end of an average game my queen energy is generally around 40-60 when it gets to 50 should i put a macro hatch down or what?
I'd like to add something to your queen question - in the lategame, you can bring all yours queens to the front to transfuse expensive units such as ultras/broodlords. In the lategame, you won't need that many larvae anyway (ultras/corruptors cost few larvae compared to lings).
If you suspect you'll need a ling remax though, build new queens when you're bringing your old queens to the front.
What I usually do is I have say, main army on 1, spellcasters on 2, then queens on 3.
When you're floating minerals, just remember one simple rule: drones 'n spines. That's all. Or spores, if he's going air :p
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Since im probably never get this answered in the other thread im gonna ask here.
How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntarily fck myself over.
The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes/vipers can instantly die.
+ Show Spoiler +Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead.
+ Show Spoiler +Another good example would be Losira vs Taeja on whirlwind in GSL group D. Even though losira didnt go for mutas this game I feel it basically showcased the same thing. Even though he had stronger army capable of winning the fights. If you take bad engage or miss a mine you just cant never "go for the kill" vs terran. And in super late game its the terran that always win not the zerg  (as many people imply that more lategame the game goes the better for zerg i just dont think thats true)
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Hello all, and thank you for your invaluable information you provide us.
I'm really struggling in the ZvZ matchup:
Usually, i open 15 Hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool, with first 100 gas in metabolic boost, next 50 in baneling nest, make a spine at the natural and try to go into lair around 7 minutes.
But from here, it's a loss 80% of the time.
Let me explain why: i go up to 35 mutalisks with 2/2 upgrades, but i don't know where to transition into infestors. I feel like once reaching the point of mass mutalisks, i either die from fungal or speedlings running through my base, even though I have 2/3 spines.
I'd really love some basic fundamentals of when should i stop mutalisks and go for infestors, and how to prevent speedlings run by.
Thank you in advance for your answers!
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On April 11 2013 20:46 Veriol wrote:Since im probably never get this answered in the other thread im gonna ask here. How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntarily fck myself over. The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes/vipers can instantly die. + Show Spoiler +Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead. Another good example would be Losira vs Taeja on whirlwind in GSL group D. Even though losira didnt go for mutas this game I feel it basically showcased the same thing. Even though he had stronger army capable of winning the fights. If you take bad engage or miss a mine you just cant never "go for the kill" vs terran. And in super late game its the terran that always win not the zerg (as many people imply that more lategame the game goes the better for zerg i just dont think thats true)
Generally speaking, I find that "going for the kill" is the best way to throw away a lead. Instead, try to deny new expos, and kill of the outlying ones. That way you will slowly and steadily starve your opponent, until they have no option but to gg.
Edit: When ahead, get more ahead (as in don't try to end it right there).
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On April 11 2013 20:59 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:46 Veriol wrote:Since im probably never get this answered in the other thread im gonna ask here. How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntarily fck myself over. The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes/vipers can instantly die. + Show Spoiler +Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead. Another good example would be Losira vs Taeja on whirlwind in GSL group D. Even though losira didnt go for mutas this game I feel it basically showcased the same thing. Even though he had stronger army capable of winning the fights. If you take bad engage or miss a mine you just cant never "go for the kill" vs terran. And in super late game its the terran that always win not the zerg (as many people imply that more lategame the game goes the better for zerg i just dont think thats true) Generally speaking, I find that "going for the kill" is the best way to throw away a lead. Instead, try to deny new expos, and kill of the outlying ones. That way you will slowly and steadily starve your opponent, until they have no option but to gg. Edit: When ahead, get more ahead (as in don't try to end it right there).
That is option only on certain maps. Maps like Akilon,Newkirk,Whirlwind often have similar traits to them (easy drops, easy 4base) that make terran "borderline stronger" than zerg.
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On April 11 2013 20:46 Veriol wrote:Since im probably never get this answered in the other thread im gonna ask here. How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntarily fck myself over. The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes/vipers can instantly die. + Show Spoiler +Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead. Another good example would be Losira vs Taeja on whirlwind in GSL group D. Even though losira didnt go for mutas this game I feel it basically showcased the same thing. Even though he had stronger army capable of winning the fights. If you take bad engage or miss a mine you just cant never "go for the kill" vs terran. And in super late game its the terran that always win not the zerg (as many people imply that more lategame the game goes the better for zerg i just dont think thats true)
You're saying you have problems with depot/raxes/stuff. So just don't go there? Kill his 4th or third, and just keep expoing yourself. You don't have to demolish his entire base to win; sometimes starvation is the way to go. Chill at his 4th (while denying drops) and tech up to broodlords if you want, cause broodlords don't care about depots or raxes.
On April 11 2013 20:49 MalditoKyo wrote:
Hello all, and thank you for your invaluable information you provide us.
I'm really struggling in the ZvZ matchup:
Usually, i open 15 Hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool, with first 100 gas in metabolic boost, next 50 in baneling nest, make a spine at the natural and try to go into lair around 7 minutes.
But from here, it's a loss 80% of the time.
Let me explain why: i go up to 35 mutalisks with 2/2 upgrades, but i don't know where to transition into infestors. I feel like once reaching the point of mass mutalisks, i either die from fungal or speedlings running through my base, even though I have 2/3 spines.
I'd really love some basic fundamentals of when should i stop mutalisks and go for infestors, and how to prevent speedlings run by.
Thank you in advance for your answers!
Well, you're probably way too passive. You seem to be missing the entire period between 'start lair at 7:00' and 'get fungaled to death with 35 2/2 mutas'.
Keep trying to attack, keep poking. If you lose to speedlings, that means you don't have enough speedlings yourself. You need lings to deny counter attacks, or to counter attack yourself. Anyway, if you keep poking with mutas and keep trying to do damage / keep map control, there is no way he can techswitch to infestors because you'll just kill him. (4 infestors + pit = 750 gas = 7 less mutas = free victory for you. Don't be too afraid of spores, once you have 40 2/2 mutas you'll just crush it.)
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On April 11 2013 20:49 MalditoKyo wrote:
Hello all, and thank you for your invaluable information you provide us.
I'm really struggling in the ZvZ matchup:
Usually, i open 15 Hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool, with first 100 gas in metabolic boost, next 50 in baneling nest, make a spine at the natural and try to go into lair around 7 minutes.
But from here, it's a loss 80% of the time.
Let me explain why: i go up to 35 mutalisks with 2/2 upgrades, but i don't know where to transition into infestors. I feel like once reaching the point of mass mutalisks, i either die from fungal or speedlings running through my base, even though I have 2/3 spines.
I'd really love some basic fundamentals of when should i stop mutalisks and go for infestors, and how to prevent speedlings run by.
Thank you in advance for your answers!
It's unclear, but is the other guy going muta too or is he going roach/infestor or roach/hydra/infestor? If they are going muta, you are being to passive as Henk said. If not then you need to either transition to ground yourself or going double evo and transitioning to ultralisks isn't a bad move either.
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I agree with MstrJinbo. If you see he is going roach/hydra/infestor, defend if he tries to hit a timing with roaches. If he doesn't, or you've held it, I'd say stop at ~16 mutas. Get double upgrades (melee/carapace) and an early hive to get out ultras. Get baneling speed as well. If he tries to attack with pure roach/hydra, get a ton of banelings and roll over his hydras. Your mutas will clean up his roaches. If he's turtling on 3 bases to get hydra/infestor/roach, try to harass him to buy time for your ultras to pop. Once ultras are out, it's game over.
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On April 11 2013 22:53 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:49 MalditoKyo wrote:
Hello all, and thank you for your invaluable information you provide us.
I'm really struggling in the ZvZ matchup:
Usually, i open 15 Hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool, with first 100 gas in metabolic boost, next 50 in baneling nest, make a spine at the natural and try to go into lair around 7 minutes.
But from here, it's a loss 80% of the time.
Let me explain why: i go up to 35 mutalisks with 2/2 upgrades, but i don't know where to transition into infestors. I feel like once reaching the point of mass mutalisks, i either die from fungal or speedlings running through my base, even though I have 2/3 spines.
I'd really love some basic fundamentals of when should i stop mutalisks and go for infestors, and how to prevent speedlings run by.
Thank you in advance for your answers! It's unclear, but is the other guy going muta too or is he going roach/infestor or roach/hydra/infestor? If they are going muta, you are being to passive as Henk said. If not then you need to either transition to ground yourself or going double evo and transitioning to ultralisks isn't a bad move either.
Yes he is also going muta! As i watched the replays, you are so damn right...i'm too afraid of engaging the mutas, and also poking due to spores...
And you are definitely right, i don't have enough speedlings to deny run by, thank you guys for your input. I couldn't figure it out by myself, but now that you pointed all that out, i'm out to raise that ZvZ ratio!
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What sort of unit composition should I be aiming for in lategame ZvT?
I have been trying ultra/infestor so far, but have been finding that if I don't hit money fungals I can get kited really effectively and not really do the kind of damage I want to for my expensive units.
Also, another quick question, what place does the viper have outside of vs Mech in ZvT?
Thanks in advance
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On April 12 2013 00:37 CrueltY wrote:
What sort of unit composition should I be aiming for in lategame ZvT?
I have been trying ultra/infestor so far, but have been finding that if I don't hit money fungals I can get kited really effectively and not really do the kind of damage I want to for my expensive units.
Also, another quick question, what place does the viper have outside of vs Mech in ZvT?
Thanks in advance
ling/ultra infestor should do just fine, really. Add in a few mutas to help defend against drops and you should have a solid setup. You could also go for a BL switch, but you're going to have to invest in drop defense cause you'll be really immobile.
Viper isn't used vs bio, really. Well, at least if you're going ling-ultra. If you're going roach-hydra vs bio you could include vipers.
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On April 11 2013 20:46 Veriol wrote:Since im probably never get this answered in the other thread im gonna ask here. How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntarily fck myself over. The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes/vipers can instantly die. + Show Spoiler +Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead. Another good example would be Losira vs Taeja on whirlwind in GSL group D. Even though losira didnt go for mutas this game I feel it basically showcased the same thing. Even though he had stronger army capable of winning the fights. If you take bad engage or miss a mine you just cant never "go for the kill" vs terran. And in super late game its the terran that always win not the zerg (as many people imply that more lategame the game goes the better for zerg i just dont think thats true)
Basically widow mines are the hard counter to bling/muta. The zerg player needs to micro perfectly while the Terran can just sit comfortably in his widow minefield. And even with perfect micro the trade is never cost-efficient due to the aoe dmg of the mines.
I feel Swarm Hosts are the answer to the biomine style, you can contain & put relentless pressure on the terran and widow mines are useless. But I think at the pro-level Zergs haven't adapted yet to the Medivac boost drops. Once that becomes more easy to deflect I believe a SH/Hydra midgame force will own biomine.
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If the opponent goes for fast warp prism off 2 bases then keeps expanding, do you focus on defending against the warp prism until you have enough economy to build up static defense at home and then go aggressive? I really struggle against this, don't know if I should maybe get some roaches to have at home while being aggressive with my main army.
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United States248 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:42 Kraelog wrote:
Basically widow mines are the hard counter to bling/muta. The zerg player needs to micro perfectly while the Terran can just sit comfortably in his widow minefield. And even with perfect micro the trade is never cost-efficient due to the aoe dmg of the mines.
I feel Swarm Hosts are the answer to the biomine style, you can contain & put relentless pressure on the terran and widow mines are useless. But I think at the pro-level Zergs haven't adapted yet to the Medivac boost drops. Once that becomes more easy to deflect I believe a SH/Hydra midgame force will own biomine.
I do not believe this to be correct. Bio/mine "counters" ling/bling/muta in the same way bio/tank "counters" ling/bling/muta. They stack up against each other very well and the game comes down to who has better control. Ling/bling/muta into prehive transition is the only way I have been able to play straight up games vs terrans. Most GMs/pros play this as well. For reference, you can check out Blade's stream, as he does this sort of ling/bling/muta midgame regularly.
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On April 12 2013 01:47 Zheryn wrote:
If the opponent goes for fast warp prism off 2 bases then keeps expanding, do you focus on defending against the warp prism until you have enough economy to build up static defense at home and then go aggressive? I really struggle against this, don't know if I should maybe get some roaches to have at home while being aggressive with my main army.
Yes, if you scout a warp prism you should commit some of your army to defense and make probably one spore at each base. You can be aggressive and defend at the same time. It really only takes around 4-5 roaches to defend against a warp prism.
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EPT
