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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On April 12 2013 03:43 TheDwf wrote: Pity the majority of pro games contradict you, then. Yes, because clearly Zerg pro's are just crushing Terrans who use widow mines. I mean, when in the last month have ever seen a Zerg losing against biomine.... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 12 2013 22:00 Kraelog wrote: Yes, because clearly Zerg pro's are just crushing Terrans who use widow mines. I mean, when in the last month have ever seen a Zerg losing against biomine.... So your definition of an "effective composition" is something which has a 100% winrate? And your "hydras/swarmhosts" suggestion would be closer to that than the standard lings/banes/mutas played by the overwhelming majority of top Zergs at the highest level? | ||
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SneakyWeasel
United States6 Posts
On April 12 2013 22:00 Kraelog wrote: Yes, because clearly Zerg pro's are just crushing Terrans who use widow mines. I mean, when in the last month have ever seen a Zerg losing against biomine.... By the same notion Terrans are absolutely crushing Zerg's with a 100% winrate so there are no ZvT games for you to look at for effective ling bling muta control vs MMMM, right? | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
On April 12 2013 20:50 ultrakiss wrote: is there a reason that most high level Z players prefer a (about) 10 roach pressure in ZvT as opposed to doing something like TangSC's burrow roach push? they hit at similar times from what i can tell. Do the extra roaches outweigh the benefits of burrow micro? Is it a stronger macro option? Am I incorrect about the timings and one hits much faster? Just trying to expand my knowledge of the game  If you attack a Terran with roach pressure, you have to do damage and I believe it's easier to do damage by killing his army quickly before going in, even if it means losing a few roaches. I'm unsure wether actually using burrow would allow you to do that, since you have to take much more time to kill his army because of how low roach DPS is. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On April 12 2013 23:00 loginn wrote: If you attack a Terran with roach pressure, you have to do damage and I believe it's easier to do damage by killing his army quickly before going in, even if it means losing a few roaches. I'm unsure wether actually using burrow would allow you to do that, since you have to take much more time to kill his army because of how low roach DPS is. I think it is just a different style. With the burrow roach timing it's great to kill the bunker but a lot of zergs will content themselves to killing the scvs trying to repair the bunker. With the 10 roach timing, I see a lot of cases where the Zerg just runs past the bunker and disrupts mining in the natural until the Terran has the units to clean it up. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
what is the perfect reaction? does somebody have the exact BO (when gas, queens, ovis, spines, expand etc.?): instant pool...and then? ^^ | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 13 2013 05:39 Decendos wrote: in ZvZ i go for hatch first with dronescout. now upon scouting 10 pool gas: what is the perfect reaction? does somebody have the exact BO (when gas, queens, ovis, spines, expand etc.?): instant pool...and then? ^^ 10 pool is pretty much the hardcounter to 15H. If executed well, you'll just lose. You either take the risk of dying to 10 pool with 15H, or just don't 15H. Edit: What's the use of that dronescout? Apparently it arrives after you've already played your hatch. Then what is the use of the scout? Either scout before you put the hatch so you can get a reactive pool or just don't dronescout. Dronescouting costs about as much as you gain from going 15 hatch over 15 pool, so you're throwing away your advantage. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 13 2013 06:20 Henk wrote: 10 pool is pretty much the hardcounter to 15H. If executed well, you'll just lose. You either take the risk of dying to 10 pool with 15H, or just don't 15H. Edit: What's the use of that dronescout? Apparently it arrives after you've already played your hatch. Then what is the use of the scout? Either scout before you put the hatch so you can get a reactive pool or just don't dronescout. Dronescouting costs about as much as you gain from going 15 hatch over 15 pool, so you're throwing away your advantage. obv i build a pool and not a hatch if i scout 10 pool...or cancel hatch if already down. i need a followup BO. so after i placed 15 or so pool (instant after scouting 10 pool gas) i need a follow up. am just lost right now. would be nice if somebody could give me a detailled BO how to follow it up. oh and to the droncescout: you need it or die to 10 pool and yeah its about even with 15p without scout BUT: - you are able to block hatch first players expo (with 15 pool you will be behind to hatch first without scout) - you are able to scout early pools and if its with or without gas etc. (you see it much earlier than you will with 15p) - you are able to scout his gas timings if he is doing a 15p or hatch first (this is huge imo and lets you do nice timing attacks or play very greedy) --> imo hatch first with dronescout > 15p another topic: how in the hell do you scout vs gate first?!? i honestly have no idea how to scout P. MSC = he sees all ovis and parks 1 stalker there = no scout possible. do you go ovispeed or superfast lair? | ||
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halldor
Iceland43 Posts
Can you high master players give me some tips? Here is an example: http://drop.sc/322625 | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 13 2013 06:30 Decendos wrote: obv i build a pool and not a hatch if i scout 10 pool...or cancel hatch if already down. i need a followup BO. so after i placed 15 or so pool (instant after scouting 10 pool gas) i need a follow up. am just lost right now. would be nice if somebody could give me a detailled BO how to follow it up. oh and to the droncescout: you need it or die to 10 pool and yeah its about even with 15p without scout BUT: - you are able to block hatch first players expo (with 15 pool you will be behind to hatch first without scout) - you are able to scout early pools and if its with or without gas etc. (you see it much earlier than you will with 15p) - you are able to scout his gas timings if he is doing a 15p or hatch first (this is huge imo and lets you do nice timing attacks or play very greedy) --> imo hatch first with dronescout > 15p Well, I just prefer to get rid of all this early pool nonsense by just going something like 15P 16H 17G (or 16G). If you're better than your opponent, you'll win anyway. Or you're worse, you'll still lose. IMO losing to early pools and stuff is just annoying and going 15H every single game isn't something you see pros do either. Uhm anyway: If he 10 pools and you 15P your should be fine. If you saw it before your hatch, IMO you can still put down the hatchery at 16. then just go 15P 16H 16G overlord and pump lings until he puts down a hatchery himself. This usually works for me (mid/high master). | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 13 2013 06:49 halldor wrote: Hey guys, so i just got promoted to masters this season, so far my zvz and zvt are going pretty well, but i've only gone vs like 5 toss this season so my zvp is a bit off compared to my other matchups, so far i'm going hydra ling viper and then switching into ultra ling infestor to maybe throw the toss off, if that doesn't work i usually just die to storm/templars/collossus/void rays, but that isn't working out so well for me. Can you high master players give me some tips? Here is an example: http://drop.sc/322625 hydra/ling viper isn't really good, because lings are worthless vs toss if he's going colossi. Which he will, because you're showing hydras. I like going Swarmhost/hydra into viper, then adding ultras. Put down your infestation pit and hydra den at the same time. If you see stargate, pump some hydras (10~15) and then produce something like 13 swarmhosts. You can then start pressuring the toss. If he attacks into your SH, unburrow and move back before he reaches you. This works alright for me, although you may need some practice with this unit comp. Blade55555 has written a more detailed guide about this style. Be sure to keep your SH alive, because they'll force his high templar to stay back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758#3.3 - Blade's guide. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 13 2013 07:08 Henk wrote: Well, I just prefer to get rid of all this early pool nonsense by just going something like 15P 16H 17G (or 16G). If you're better than your opponent, you'll win anyway. Or you're worse, you'll still lose. IMO losing to early pools and stuff is just annoying and going 15H every single game isn't something you see pros do either. Uhm anyway: If he 10 pools and you 15P your should be fine. If you saw it before your hatch, IMO you can still put down the hatchery at 16. then just go 15P 16H 16G overlord and pump lings until he puts down a hatchery himself. This usually works for me (mid/high master). thanks for your input but i really need a BO for this. i know the overall plan but am pretty lost then it comes to the exact BO (so when to build ovis, spine, 2nd queen, take expansion etc.). | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
On April 13 2013 06:49 halldor wrote: Hey guys, so i just got promoted to masters this season, so far my zvz and zvt are going pretty well, but i've only gone vs like 5 toss this season so my zvp is a bit off compared to my other matchups, so far i'm going hydra ling viper and then switching into ultra ling infestor to maybe throw the toss off, if that doesn't work i usually just die to storm/templars/collossus/void rays, but that isn't working out so well for me. Can you high master players give me some tips? Here is an example: http://drop.sc/322625 Watching replay : You take your third somewhat late (20 sec late) You don't need (and shouldn't) maynard drones in zvp, just rally new ones to your nat. You take the gases a little bit early. At 7 min, all your bases are under saturated which means you're losing minerals overall. You should focus on saturating main and nat before the third, rather than having 12 drones everywhere. You make WAAAAAAAAAAY too many lings for a MSC and a Stalker. at 9 min you're 15 drones behind what you should be given your scouting. You never scout the third, and although I guess you knew it would be there, had you scouted it you could have denied it, which is very important vs toss. You engage without range upgrade on Hydra ! Don't keep building Ling Hydras if you see 4 colossi, make a spire instead. You need to pull the Colossi when engaging. To sum it up : You need to work on your build order. Don't overreact to pressure Don't be so stubborn about your composition Scout the third. Hopefully that was useful | ||
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halldor
Iceland43 Posts
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halldor
Iceland43 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 13 2013 20:38 halldor wrote: I have no idea what composition i'm suppose to go for, is it still good to go for the roach warren and evo @ 7:00 and 2 gasses @ 6:00? or do i just go for lings till i get my hydra den? when he's got a shitton of collossus and high templar and my roach/hydra viper isn't working anymore what do i transition into? infestor ling ultras get shat on by air/immortals/templars, infestor broodlord gets shat on by air'n templars, so yeah, pls help Lately I've been using Ultra/hydra/viper. Protoss like to chrono boost out +3 weapons so you have to check his upgrades before you commit to an attack. I usually end up waiting for 3/5 on my ultras since its impossible to keep up with chrono'd forges. Snipe the aoe units first with your vipers. You can have cracklings in your army if you flank as soon as you kill the aoe. Just don't have them in the front when you engage or they all die. Remax on cracklings ftw. If he has so much aoe that you just can't kill it quickly then you have to use swarmhosts. To use swarmhosts late game you wanna be up to like 80 drones and start making static defense. Remake your drones as you do this. Once swarmhosts are a major part of your army you're not gonna be moving quickly anywhere so you need lots of spines and spores to defend against warp prisms. Spread your creep as aggressively as you can toward the front of his base and pushhhhh! If he goes carriers you need mass spores in your push to kill interceptors. You won't beat carriers with hydras alone. If he goes voids you'll need to add infestors. Voids stack nicely for fungal. If he goes tempest you'll need corruptors. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On April 13 2013 09:52 Decendos wrote: thanks for your input but i really need a BO for this. i know the overall plan but am pretty lost then it comes to the exact BO (so when to build ovis, spine, 2nd queen, take expansion etc.). 9 drone scout (after 9 ovie) you will see the early pool around 13-16 depending on map (however, Ill had if it is a big map like star station or whirlwind, don't drone scout and just open 15p) if you see the early pool around 13-14: 14g 14p 15oV queen, 6 lings, Baneling nest 20 hatch (should be around 4:15 or before) 20 queen 22oV If you see the early pool later then 13-14 supply. if its a 6 - 9p, 15P, make just enough lings, drone pull when needed. then play standard. if its 9-10p with gas: 15p 15g 15oV 15Queen + 6 lings, Bane nest and 2nd queen ( you need two to block the ramp. which gives you just enough time to have your first banes morph for either their 10 sling all in, or 10p baneling allin. Once you have banes, Take a hatch when you can afford it. (around 25-30supply) You don't need to rush because you will be up on drones. From here you should get lair asap, while spending all your min on drones. You should be able to get mutas as their lair finishes. | ||
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smOOthMayDie
United States997 Posts
Lost from MASS WIDOW MINES. I don't know to beat this. He started with widow mine drops, 2 on each base of mine at the same time, i had a spire + spine at each base, but wasn't enough. Then, he pushes out a few minutes later with around 20 widow mines, and 3 vikings to kill my overseers if I had any. After losing A LOT, I manage to clean up the mines with roaches, only to see another push coming with the same amount of mines, 2 ravens, 2 battle cruisers, and a few vikings. I tried to combat this with ~20 mutes and my remaining roaches but Instantly got slammed. I spread my mutas out but he had enough widow mines that it didn't even matter. What do we do vs mass widow mines? Edit: just watched replay, at one point he was 40 window mines lol. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 13 2013 23:21 smOOthMayDie wrote: Just played a ZvT against a plat terran, im diamond zerg. Lost from MASS WIDOW MINES. I don't know to beat this. He started with widow mine drops, 2 on each base of mine at the same time, i had a spire + spine at each base, but wasn't enough. Then, he pushes out a few minutes later with around 20 widow mines, and 3 vikings to kill my overseers if I had any. After losing A LOT, I manage to clean up the mines with roaches, only to see another push coming with the same amount of mines, 2 ravens, 2 battle cruisers, and a few vikings. I tried to combat this with ~20 mutes and my remaining roaches but Instantly got slammed. I spread my mutas out but he had enough widow mines that it didn't even matter. What do we do vs mass widow mines? Edit: just watched replay, at one point he was 40 window mines lol. Mass widow mines is a shitty strat that should never work. I'd say hydras would work well vs everything he had, because they outrange mines/are pretty fast. Baneling would also work well vs this, unless his widow mines were spread very well. However, as 90% of the losses you get as zerg, you most likely took too much damage early on. Widow mine drops when you already have a spine AND spore should do ZERO damage. If you took losses, you did something wrong. Pull drones, wait till spine cleans up the mines/suicide one ling to go back to mining until you've got detection to kill the mine again. (Mine recharge time is 40 sec, plenty of time to get detection.) | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On April 13 2013 22:20 BuiBui wrote: 9 drone scout (after 9 ovie) you will see the early pool around 13-16 depending on map (however, Ill had if it is a big map like star station or whirlwind, don't drone scout and just open 15p) if you see the early pool around 13-14: 14g 14p 15oV queen, 6 lings, Baneling nest 20 hatch (should be around 4:15 or before) 20 queen 22oV If you see the early pool later then 13-14 supply. if its a 6 - 9p, 15P, make just enough lings, drone pull when needed. then play standard. if its 9-10p with gas: 15p 15g 15oV 15Queen + 6 lings, Bane nest and 2nd queen ( you need two to block the ramp. which gives you just enough time to have your first banes morph for either their 10 sling all in, or 10p baneling allin. Once you have banes, Take a hatch when you can afford it. (around 25-30supply) You don't need to rush because you will be up on drones. From here you should get lair asap, while spending all your min on drones. You should be able to get mutas as their lair finishes. this is exactly what i was looking for. thank you very much!! | ||
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