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On April 12 2013 01:52 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:42 Kraelog wrote:
Basically widow mines are the hard counter to bling/muta. The zerg player needs to micro perfectly while the Terran can just sit comfortably in his widow minefield. And even with perfect micro the trade is never cost-efficient due to the aoe dmg of the mines.
I feel Swarm Hosts are the answer to the biomine style, you can contain & put relentless pressure on the terran and widow mines are useless. But I think at the pro-level Zergs haven't adapted yet to the Medivac boost drops. Once that becomes more easy to deflect I believe a SH/Hydra midgame force will own biomine. I do not believe this to be correct. Bio/mine "counters" ling/bling/muta in the same way bio/tank "counters" ling/bling/muta. They stack up against each other very well and the game comes down to who has better control. Ling/bling/muta into prehive transition is the only way I have been able to play straight up games vs terrans. Most GMs/pros play this as well. For reference, you can check out Blade's stream, as he does this sort of ling/bling/muta midgame regularly.
Once Tanks start to shoot mutalisks with a Siege mode of 1sec, I willl concede you're right.
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On April 12 2013 02:00 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 01:52 Jowj wrote:On April 12 2013 00:42 Kraelog wrote:
Basically widow mines are the hard counter to bling/muta. The zerg player needs to micro perfectly while the Terran can just sit comfortably in his widow minefield. And even with perfect micro the trade is never cost-efficient due to the aoe dmg of the mines.
I feel Swarm Hosts are the answer to the biomine style, you can contain & put relentless pressure on the terran and widow mines are useless. But I think at the pro-level Zergs haven't adapted yet to the Medivac boost drops. Once that becomes more easy to deflect I believe a SH/Hydra midgame force will own biomine. I do not believe this to be correct. Bio/mine "counters" ling/bling/muta in the same way bio/tank "counters" ling/bling/muta. They stack up against each other very well and the game comes down to who has better control. Ling/bling/muta into prehive transition is the only way I have been able to play straight up games vs terrans. Most GMs/pros play this as well. For reference, you can check out Blade's stream, as he does this sort of ling/bling/muta midgame regularly. Once Tanks start to shoot mutalisks with a Siege mode of 1sec, I willl concede you're right.
Marines are the primary anti air for both mines and tank compositions. Mines and tanks biggest role was keeping banelings from obliterating the marines.
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True but mines still can obliterate a pack of mutalisks in 1 second. With marines it happens if you just fail to control them properly. Besides that mines are so much easier to mass produce and whenever zerg attacks the bioball retreats through the minefield while the Zerg blows up. Given that the mines even ignore armor I simply do not see ling/bling/muta as an effective composition given even skill.
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On April 12 2013 02:45 Kraelog wrote:
Given that the mines even ignore armor I simply do not see ling/bling/muta as an effective composition given even skill.
Pity the majority of pro games contradict you, then.
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I have huge issues with ZvT as of right now. I'm top diamond, my winrates after ~50 games on HotS are as follow:
ZvP: 83% winrate
ZvZ: 59% winrate
ZvT: 31% winrate
I cannot for the life of me deal with widow mines. I tried several compositions, but mainly muta/ling/bling as I feel mutas are necessary to counter drops, and it seems to be the standard comp of pro zergs. I'm probably doing something really wrong, and I admit I do not grasp fully the metagame of the matchup.
I get that with muta/lings I'm supposed to have some overseers, try and snipe off some mines with the mutalisks, bait some mine shots with a few zerglings, etc. But with that composition, what the hell are you supposed to do when the terran goes for a mid-game push with 10+ widow mines in the middle of his bio force? You can't possibly snipe them. You can't bait the mine shots. Hell, even with a carefully planed 3 pronged flank when the opponent is moving out, catching him off guard, he just stims, burrow his mines, and all my lings and banelings disappear in one second, leaving me 15 or so poor mutas against his 50 marines.
So my question is, how do you engage versus biomine with muta/ling/bling?
Edit: Here is a replay showcasing my difficulties. This was against a master player who's probably better than I am, I realize my upgrades were really late, this is usually not the case. I need advices on the engagements, positioning, I feel this is where I am the weakest. But if I'm missing something else, please tell. http://drop.sc/321805
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On April 12 2013 04:41 fastr wrote:
I have huge issues with ZvT as of right now. I'm top diamond, my winrates after ~50 games on HotS are as follow:
ZvP: 83% winrate
ZvZ: 59% winrate
ZvT: 31% winrate
I cannot for the life of me deal with widow mines. I tried several compositions, but mainly muta/ling/bling as I feel mutas are necessary to counter drops, and it seems to be the standard comp of pro zergs. I'm probably doing something really wrong, and I admit I do not grasp fully the metagame of the matchup.
I get that with muta/lings I'm supposed to have some overseers, try and snipe off some mines with the mutalisks, bait some mine shots with a few zerglings, etc. But with that composition, what the hell are you supposed to do when the terran goes for a mid-game push with 10+ widow mines in the middle of his bio force? You can't possibly snipe them. You can't bait the mine shots. Hell, even with a carefully planed 3 pronged flank when the opponent is moving out, catching him off guard, he just stims, burrow his mines, and all my lings and banelings disappear in one second, leaving me 15 or so poor mutas against his 50 marines.
So my question is, how do you engage versus biomine with muta/ling/bling?
This would be a case where a replay would be super helpful.
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On April 12 2013 04:45 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:41 fastr wrote:
I have huge issues with ZvT as of right now. I'm top diamond, my winrates after ~50 games on HotS are as follow:
ZvP: 83% winrate
ZvZ: 59% winrate
ZvT: 31% winrate
I cannot for the life of me deal with widow mines. I tried several compositions, but mainly muta/ling/bling as I feel mutas are necessary to counter drops, and it seems to be the standard comp of pro zergs. I'm probably doing something really wrong, and I admit I do not grasp fully the metagame of the matchup.
I get that with muta/lings I'm supposed to have some overseers, try and snipe off some mines with the mutalisks, bait some mine shots with a few zerglings, etc. But with that composition, what the hell are you supposed to do when the terran goes for a mid-game push with 10+ widow mines in the middle of his bio force? You can't possibly snipe them. You can't bait the mine shots. Hell, even with a carefully planed 3 pronged flank when the opponent is moving out, catching him off guard, he just stims, burrow his mines, and all my lings and banelings disappear in one second, leaving me 15 or so poor mutas against his 50 marines.
So my question is, how do you engage versus biomine with muta/ling/bling?
This would be a case where a replay would be super helpful.
Updated my post with a replay.
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Russian Federation50 Posts
Any tips on dealing with early aggression in ZvZ? I'm barely keeping a 50% winrate which is pretty bad compared to other matchups, though I always try going for mutas, I suppose if I was intent on ending the game early I would have more success, but that probably wouldn't scale to higher leagues (trying to get promoted out of plat atm).
My main problem is that on most maps (other than neo planet) it is impossible to block off in time, and I can't always tell he's going to attack with a ton of lings (lack of expansion is an obvious sign, but a lot of attacks come off 2 bases). Even if I do get some defensive banes, he can just bring even more lings and even perfect connections won't help. Spines are easily surrounded, besides if I put spines in my main I'll end up forfeiting my natural, and vice versa. Another problem is how to tell if I should be aggressive myself? When I see him teching with minimal defense, instead of trying to abuse it, I usually do the same thing myself, but that's probably not always the best decision.
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fastr wrote:
Updated my post with a replay.
-Your opening was fine, but then you lost a good bit to reaper harass. Its better to make just 1 pair of lings and stick them in each hatch with the corresponding queen. You can be more aggressive only once speed is done or you'll make his reapers more cost-effective. 4 lings and 2 drones along with about 20 minerals from making the 2 into geysers and then canceling them made those 2 reapers very worth it. Don't delay the lings if you scout gas and rax for an opening.
-Your gasses were pretty late. During the point where he had 3 CC in his main and was expanding to his natural while making pairs of hellions you forgot to spend. It would've been better to stay on 2 base and delay your third slightly later in favor of making a round of drones which would've allowed you to start your double ups, slightly later lair, but stronger economy overall.
-You made double evos but because of the economy problems in the early game, you weren't able to get mutas out, lair tech and upgrades like you were supposed to. The evos went down at ~6:50 but double ups didn't start until 11:24 which put you way behind in the upgrade race.
-The economy hurt your muta production too, since you only poked with a handful at 12:22 and had almost no ground ling/bane to go with it. He was able to take his third very greedily and without any defenses other than 3 turrets was under no ling/bane pressure while the mutas poked in the main/nat. You must multi-task and hit many locations at once with Zerg now.
-From 15:00-17:00 it was just a pain train for T. You let him position and put his mines in a long line just like tanks without any harassment or slowing. Your split was weird and very delayed as well. You need to learn how to split your army as its moving from 3-4 angles to keep it seperated enough mines don't really damage you a ton. Its a very apm-intensive kind of micro, but it works especially well if you have speed overlords to go with it.
At the end, it was just too late for you to mount any sort of comeback since T was going strong on 3 base economy. Basically, work on macro, split army faster at all times and prioritize drones in your openings as much as possible. You had the right idea, but your timings need to be a lot more crisp. You're costing yourself some macro potential early on which spirals into a huge advantage for the T in this particular rep.
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Plat Zerg here. Does anyone have any advice/tips/tricks on ling bane vs. ling bane micro? I pre split my banelings, and when I'm in a defensive posture I keep them away from my ramp so a single zergling can't get a detonation. When I am attacking, or in a mid-map engagement, I find myself losing those fights more often than not. I try and pull away my zerglings while sending individual lings at banelings, but I end up not being accurate enough and losing or having to retreat and lose map control. Is there any tactics I am being blind to? And are there any custom games for training this sort of micro? (Besides the level in Starcraft Master)
Cheers!
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On April 12 2013 04:41 fastr wrote:I have huge issues with ZvT as of right now. I'm top diamond, my winrates after ~50 games on HotS are as follow: ZvP: 83% winrate ZvZ: 59% winrate ZvT: 31% winrate I cannot for the life of me deal with widow mines. I tried several compositions, but mainly muta/ling/bling as I feel mutas are necessary to counter drops, and it seems to be the standard comp of pro zergs. I'm probably doing something really wrong, and I admit I do not grasp fully the metagame of the matchup. I get that with muta/lings I'm supposed to have some overseers, try and snipe off some mines with the mutalisks, bait some mine shots with a few zerglings, etc. But with that composition, what the hell are you supposed to do when the terran goes for a mid-game push with 10+ widow mines in the middle of his bio force? You can't possibly snipe them. You can't bait the mine shots. Hell, even with a carefully planed 3 pronged flank when the opponent is moving out, catching him off guard, he just stims, burrow his mines, and all my lings and banelings disappear in one second, leaving me 15 or so poor mutas against his 50 marines. So my question is, how do you engage versus biomine with muta/ling/bling? Edit: Here is a replay showcasing my difficulties. This was against a master player who's probably better than I am, I realize my upgrades were really late, this is usually not the case. I need advices on the engagements, positioning, I feel this is where I am the weakest. But if I'm missing something else, please tell. http://drop.sc/321805
Warhounds! 
Ok so here are your main issues in the replay.
1: Slow upgrades
2: Bad creep spread
3: To many mutas
4: Slow hive tech
If you're behind on upgrades you're as good as dead in ZVT. Go contaminate his engineering bays or find a way to delay his attack. You should have been close to 3/3. Make sure your evo's go down as soon as you get saturated. Around 7 minutes usually.
You need at least one extra queen for creep spread. I prefer 4 queen instead of quick speedlings. Even if you do speedlings you need a third queen for proper creep spread. If you're not fighting on creep you're at a serious disadvantage against bio. You have 1.5 seconds to get into position before everything explodes and ideally you want to be on top of him when it happens so that he gets hit too. You want your speedlings leading and surrounding the bio. Banelings should come in shortly after the mines go off to clean up. Don't let your banelings take mine hits. You should know where the mines are if he's on creep. The exception to this is if he burrows them in a group then taking some banelings and exploding them on the group of mines can be extremely effective. Obviously this is something that takes practice and experience but the main take away should be that you want your creep spread to be awesome against bio so that this kind of micro can take place.
Making a lot of mutas can put you at a sever disadvantage in ZVT. Mutas are good at killing scv's, medivacs and tanks that's it. If you don't do that you wasted a lot of minerals and gas and you become extremely vunerable to a mid game push. You have to make them cost effective because they are not going to help you against bio/mine. My advice is to only make 6 mutas or corruptors to handle the medivac drops and keep the medivac count from getting unmanageable.
You want your hive started as soon as you start 2/2 upgrades. As soon as the hive finishes start 3/3, adrenal glands and an ultralisk cavern in that order. Now you can try to win the game. Ultra/ling/viper/corruptor can break terrans. Don't overmake ultralisks. There's nothing worse than watching your entire army get stuck in a choke point while bio eats away at them. Make 4 to 6 of them and spend the rest on speedlings and vipers. The terran reaction to ultras is to build marauders and kite backwards then hide inside their buildings or behind a planetary. This is a good thing though because 3/3 cracklings have no trouble dealing with marauders now that his marine count is lower. And when he does get to his buildings blinding cloud over everything including planetarys will shut down his damage for long enough so that you can clear the buildings he's hiding behind. Make sure you're hitting your injects because you're gonna be spamming the hell out of zerglings. Only replace the ultras that die don't get to many or your combo will stop working against the marauders.
Your vipers are precious make sure they are behind your army and supported by corruptors if he has vikings. You won't break into the terran base without them.
As far as banelings go don't over use them. You can't lead with them like in the past. They have to come in to clean up after your zerglings or ultras. Losing a large pack of banelings to a mine hit can be game ending. You don't need to make 30 banelings to get the terran to split up and run away. Less banelings in exchange for more ultras or zerglings means less risk of 1 mine hit ending the game. If you feel the need adding infestors to your combo can be much more cost effective than overmaking banelings to ensure they connect.
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On April 12 2013 05:08 TheZanthex wrote:Quick question about ZvP. Is there a 3 hatch speedling opener that is viable versus protoss Atm? I can't seem to figure one out. I found one in liquipedia but I don't know if it is up to date. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Pool_First,_Double_Expand_(vs._Protoss)If not could anyone please help me out? I don't like the slow-ling openers.
If you're planning on pulling out of gas at 100, you could probably do something like
15 pool
16 hatch
16 gas
15 queen
17 Over
and then third around 25-28 supply.
I still think speedless is better, cause speed isn't really giving you much before 7 min, since you're not going to make a lot of ling if you go for a three base opener.
On April 12 2013 06:35 d07.RiV wrote:
Any tips on dealing with early aggression in ZvZ? I'm barely keeping a 50% winrate which is pretty bad compared to other matchups, though I always try going for mutas, I suppose if I was intent on ending the game early I would have more success, but that probably wouldn't scale to higher leagues (trying to get promoted out of plat atm).
My main problem is that on most maps (other than neo planet) it is impossible to block off in time, and I can't always tell he's going to attack with a ton of lings (lack of expansion is an obvious sign, but a lot of attacks come off 2 bases). Even if I do get some defensive banes, he can just bring even more lings and even perfect connections won't help. Spines are easily surrounded, besides if I put spines in my main I'll end up forfeiting my natural, and vice versa. Another problem is how to tell if I should be aggressive myself? When I see him teching with minimal defense, instead of trying to abuse it, I usually do the same thing myself, but that's probably not always the best decision.
Your problem is probably macro and scouting. Maybe you could provide a replay ?
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On April 11 2013 05:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:56 Incubus1993 wrote:
When do I add a baneling nest after a 15 hatch when my opponent has 15 hatched as well but is doing a speedling timing? This is up to you, I personally will do baneling nest first unless I scout that our gases are the same timing which I will then get speed first. If his gas is before mine I get bane first, if his gas is after mine I get speed first.
Thanks for the help Blade! Nice games on HD Starcraft btw you're exciting to watch. I have a question, say I didn't feel like going Muta vs Muta in ZvZ. On two player maps only would it be viable to play against Muta ling bane using Queen, Infestor, Roach, with a nydus worm to transport the Queens (not a nydus in their base but somewhere outside in an open spot) and pressure? Mutas won't be able to fight a handful of Queens and Infestor support, because of fungal and transfuse. Obviously roaches deal with the lings pretty well and can power through the spines to kill drones and damage the economy.
Speaking of this do Queens benefit from the range upgrades I'd be gettting for roaches? Of course this could all be risky and not viable at all, just looking different unit compositions to use in Diamond league, starting to face my first masters opponents too >.<! I've seen TLO do it a few times and it looked solid. Would love some discussion.
Thanks - Incubus
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On April 12 2013 07:30 ManiacTheZealot wrote:
On April 12 2013 06:46 sCCrooked wrote:
Thank you very much to both of you for your thorough answers. I will look into them later and may be update you in a few days.
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What is the preferred way to deal with MMMM (Marine, Marauder, Mines, Medivac) in ZvT?
I have hit a level of frustration that I've never experienced before. I am at the point where I no longer want to play this game. It's just not fun, and I feel myself slipping into this "QQ-Terran-is-OP" spiral that is not typical of my thought process for competitive games. I just don't get it, though... I'm sick and fucking tired of having to make ling, bane, muta, ultra, infestor, corruptor, BL to fight fucking bio/mines with a (rare) dash of air (usually when I go BLs).
I just don't know what to do. I must be doing something wrong - there's no fucking way that an army based mostly off tier one units should rip me apart so cost-effectively. Am I just making the wrong units? Should I go roach/hydra? Should I go heavier air? When I try ling/bane/muta I get ripped apart - one poor engagement over a mine I didn't see and it's over. The bio ball is so strong that I don't feel I ever trade favourably, and I always feel like I cannot produce as fast as the Terran can produce. On top of which, I feel like there is no potential for me to pressure thanks to mines.
Someone help me before I put my fist through the fucking monitor. I'm starting to hate this fucking game.
I used to play Terran. Now I can't even stand to look at them.
EDIT: See similar questions above. Can anyone suggest specific pro matches or VODs to help those of us struggling with bio/mines to see how it's done in game?
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On April 12 2013 15:45 Mjolnir wrote:
What is the preferred way to deal with MMMM (Marine, Marauder, Mines, Medivac) in ZvT?
I have hit a level of frustration that I've never experienced before. I am at the point where I no longer want to play this game. It's just not fun, and I feel myself slipping into this "QQ-Terran-is-OP" spiral that is not typical of my thought process for competitive games. I just don't get it, though... I'm sick and fucking tired of having to make ling, bane, muta, ultra, infestor, corruptor, BL to fight fucking bio/mines with a (rare) dash of air (usually when I go BLs).
I just don't know what to do. I must be doing something wrong - there's no fucking way that an army based mostly off tier one units should rip me apart so cost-effectively. Am I just making the wrong units? Should I go roach/hydra? Should I go heavier air? When I try ling/bane/muta I get ripped apart - one poor engagement over a mine I didn't see and it's over. The bio ball is so strong that I don't feel I ever trade favourably, and I always feel like I cannot produce as fast as the Terran can produce. On top of which, I feel like there is no potential for me to pressure thanks to mines.
Someone help me before I put my fist through the fucking monitor. I'm starting to hate this fucking game.
I used to play Terran. Now I can't even stand to look at them.
EDIT: See similar questions above. Can anyone suggest specific pro matches or VODs to help those of us struggling with bio/mines to see how it's done in game?
You quote a lot of units, but did you tried Swarm Hosts ? Look Blade's guide, they are very cool against mines (but you need solid static defenses / map control / reaction to drops).
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On April 12 2013 15:45 Mjolnir wrote:
What is the preferred way to deal with MMMM (Marine, Marauder, Mines, Medivac) in ZvT?
I have hit a level of frustration that I've never experienced before. I am at the point where I no longer want to play this game. It's just not fun, and I feel myself slipping into this "QQ-Terran-is-OP" spiral that is not typical of my thought process for competitive games. I just don't get it, though... I'm sick and fucking tired of having to make ling, bane, muta, ultra, infestor, corruptor, BL to fight fucking bio/mines with a (rare) dash of air (usually when I go BLs).
I just don't know what to do. I must be doing something wrong - there's no fucking way that an army based mostly off tier one units should rip me apart so cost-effectively. Am I just making the wrong units? Should I go roach/hydra? Should I go heavier air? When I try ling/bane/muta I get ripped apart - one poor engagement over a mine I didn't see and it's over. The bio ball is so strong that I don't feel I ever trade favourably, and I always feel like I cannot produce as fast as the Terran can produce. On top of which, I feel like there is no potential for me to pressure thanks to mines.
Someone help me before I put my fist through the fucking monitor. I'm starting to hate this fucking game.
I used to play Terran. Now I can't even stand to look at them.
EDIT: See similar questions above. Can anyone suggest specific pro matches or VODs to help those of us struggling with bio/mines to see how it's done in game?
Well I've been toying with the idea of Roach Hydra, but I don't have the right build yet. With roach hydra, you have to rely on midgame timings. Adding infestors and lings will help a lot. I feel it makes it really easy to defend the BioMine 10 minutes push. However you have to make something happen afterwards. You can't stay on three bases and macro up, you need to push. But roach hydra is great for pushing, just add some overseers to scout mines and it is fine.
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On April 12 2013 15:45 Mjolnir wrote:
What is the preferred way to deal with MMMM (Marine, Marauder, Mines, Medivac) in ZvT?
I have hit a level of frustration that I've never experienced before. I am at the point where I no longer want to play this game. It's just not fun, and I feel myself slipping into this "QQ-Terran-is-OP" spiral that is not typical of my thought process for competitive games. I just don't get it, though... I'm sick and fucking tired of having to make ling, bane, muta, ultra, infestor, corruptor, BL to fight fucking bio/mines with a (rare) dash of air (usually when I go BLs).
I just don't know what to do. I must be doing something wrong - there's no fucking way that an army based mostly off tier one units should rip me apart so cost-effectively. Am I just making the wrong units? Should I go roach/hydra? Should I go heavier air? When I try ling/bane/muta I get ripped apart - one poor engagement over a mine I didn't see and it's over. The bio ball is so strong that I don't feel I ever trade favourably, and I always feel like I cannot produce as fast as the Terran can produce. On top of which, I feel like there is no potential for me to pressure thanks to mines.
Someone help me before I put my fist through the fucking monitor. I'm starting to hate this fucking game.
I used to play Terran. Now I can't even stand to look at them.
EDIT: See similar questions above. Can anyone suggest specific pro matches or VODs to help those of us struggling with bio/mines to see how it's done in game?
Crackling/ultra/viper is really good against bio mine. You can trade efficiently with it. You have to engage properly though. Ultras lead, zerglings flank, vipers place blinding cloud slightly behind the bio so his units move into yours. If he turns and runs he takes massive losses assuming you're fighting on creep. Add banelings if he's got more marines than marauders. Add corruptors to shoot down medivacs while you're fighting. Don't use mutas instead of corruptors because the mutas will get distracted and end up wasting their dps on something other than a medivac. They also have less range, less health and die a lot which is annoying.
You can use fungal instead of blinding cloud but I wouldn't recommend it. I know it locks the bio in place but the bio still does very high dps to your army and kills it. With blinding cloud your army won't evaporate to stimpack. And infestors tend to be pretty useless for a long time after they use up their energy. Vipers are always a consume away from full energy.
To get to this late game combo I tech based on my upgrades. 7ish minutes I start my evo chambers and 1/1. When 1/1 finishes I start 2/2 and my hive and 3/3 when the hive finishes. I start ultras immediately and vipers after the ultras are out. You want baneling speed as soon as lair finishes but you don't want to use banelings unless you have to. Gas is precious when you're doing this. Zerglings and good creep spread is your best most cost effective defense. I'm not gonna go into much more detail because I'm still figuring it out for myself but it works really well against bio mine.
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is there a reason that most high level Z players prefer a (about) 10 roach pressure in ZvT as opposed to doing something like TangSC's burrow roach push? they hit at similar times from what i can tell. Do the extra roaches outweigh the benefits of burrow micro? Is it a stronger macro option? Am I incorrect about the timings and one hits much faster? Just trying to expand my knowledge of the game
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EPT
