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On April 09 2013 18:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 18:09 thOr6136 wrote:
So, lets talk a bit about zvz
Today we could see in proleague zenio transitioning from pure muta ling (some banelings ofc) into infestors with burrow and also he started up melee upgrades. Is it safe to say that this is the way to go, once you secure 3 bases and get decent amount of mutas? While having spores over bases, they cant really engage you and you start transitioning into infestors but you give up map control. Once those infestors pop up, it really makes a huge difference in muta v muta wars, and with ling upgrades kicking in run-byes become a totally different story. I suspect on hive tech and 4bases+ you would aim for ultra ling infestor (muta?)? No it's always a risk to transition out of mutalisks. Had hydra attacked 30 seconds earlier he would have killed/crippled zenio really bad. What zenio did was greedy and a huge risk that obviously paid off. Normally transitions happen but it's a little later then when he did.
Hmm, i am rewatching it right now.
When engagement happened at zenios 3rd, hydra had around 40 mutas against 22~ of zenio. Then infestors pop and battle turns around.
Now i don't want to speculate what would happen if he attacked faster but, 30 seconds earlier or more, zenio has 22 mutas, hydra has like 34, but zenio has superior ground force. I think what would happen is hydra wins air battle, but he has to retreat because zenio counter attacks with zerglings. That would give him time for infestors. I don't know, maybe i am wrong 
Maybe not making transition in such, hmm how to way, hard way? Zenio stopped making mutas for good amount of time. Maybe making 10 more mutas and saving half less gas for infestors would be a lot safer.
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How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong?
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On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong?
I am not quiet sure but, i think it depends on what they do, if they target your expo, cancel it as late as possible, make sure you get queen and mass lings from there on, get 2nd queen, place expo down and make baneling nest with first 50 gas. If they go in your base i am not really sure what you should do. Maybe still cancel expo make queen first and then lings, run around with drones if you have to. From here on i would go the same way as i said for first example.
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On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong?
If I'm not mistaken, a 15p should do just fine against a 10 pool. If he focuses your hatch, pull some drones at the same time your lings pop. You should be able to hold your base (with a bit of attacking-retreating from both, don't pull too many drones). Once queen pops, walk it down. Then epending on how fast his gas is, take ling speed or baneling nest. ( I always go 15P 16H 17G, queen, overlord. You then save some larvae until your ovl pops (2 larvae) which can be lings or drones depending on if you see lings or a base. In a 4p map just make lings from these larvae to be safe. Some players go 15p 16h 16g but 17g works just fine for me.
Edit: A plain 10pool is aiming to cancel your expo. If you cancel it, you're a bit behind. If you hold, you're way ahead if you didn't lose drones.
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On April 09 2013 21:11 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong? If I'm not mistaken, a 15p should do just fine against a 10 pool. If he focuses your hatch, pull some drones at the same time your lings pop. You should be able to hold your base (with a bit of attacking-retreating from both, don't pull too many drones). Once queen pops, walk it down. Then epending on how fast his gas is, take ling speed or baneling nest. ( I always go 15P 16H 17G, queen, overlord. You then save some larvae until your ovl pops (2 larvae) which can be lings or drones depending on if you see lings or a base. In a 4p map just make lings from these larvae to be safe. Some players go 15p 16h 16g but 17g works just fine for me. Edit: A plain 10pool is aiming to cancel your expo. If you cancel it, you're a bit behind. If you hold, you're way ahead if you didn't lose drones.
You can not possibly ever have that vs 10pool.
I play 14P 15H OL and when I see lings inc I can make queen + lings but they pop after his lings are already attacking my expo.
My point is, on all 2 player maps you see 10P lings about 5-10 sec before 14 pool finishes, so I really dont understand what you mean "15 pool finishes, then queen, then OL, then IF I see lings..."
That sounds more like 16-17 pool...
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On April 10 2013 05:51 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:11 Henk wrote:On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong? If I'm not mistaken, a 15p should do just fine against a 10 pool. If he focuses your hatch, pull some drones at the same time your lings pop. You should be able to hold your base (with a bit of attacking-retreating from both, don't pull too many drones). Once queen pops, walk it down. Then epending on how fast his gas is, take ling speed or baneling nest. ( I always go 15P 16H 17G, queen, overlord. You then save some larvae until your ovl pops (2 larvae) which can be lings or drones depending on if you see lings or a base. In a 4p map just make lings from these larvae to be safe. Some players go 15p 16h 16g but 17g works just fine for me. Edit: A plain 10pool is aiming to cancel your expo. If you cancel it, you're a bit behind. If you hold, you're way ahead if you didn't lose drones. You can not possibly ever have that vs 10pool. I play 14P 15H OL and when I see lings inc I can make queen + lings but they pop after his lings are already attacking my expo. My point is, on all 2 player maps you see 10P lings about 5-10 sec before 14 pool finishes, so I really dont understand what you mean "15 pool finishes, then queen, then OL, then IF I see lings..." That sounds more like 16-17 pool...
? 15p is fine vs 10pool. your nat isn't going to instantly die because lings are attacking it for a few seconds
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On April 10 2013 05:56 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 05:51 Sek-Kuar wrote:On April 09 2013 21:11 Henk wrote:On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong? If I'm not mistaken, a 15p should do just fine against a 10 pool. If he focuses your hatch, pull some drones at the same time your lings pop. You should be able to hold your base (with a bit of attacking-retreating from both, don't pull too many drones). Once queen pops, walk it down. Then epending on how fast his gas is, take ling speed or baneling nest. ( I always go 15P 16H 17G, queen, overlord. You then save some larvae until your ovl pops (2 larvae) which can be lings or drones depending on if you see lings or a base. In a 4p map just make lings from these larvae to be safe. Some players go 15p 16h 16g but 17g works just fine for me. Edit: A plain 10pool is aiming to cancel your expo. If you cancel it, you're a bit behind. If you hold, you're way ahead if you didn't lose drones. You can not possibly ever have that vs 10pool. I play 14P 15H OL and when I see lings inc I can make queen + lings but they pop after his lings are already attacking my expo. My point is, on all 2 player maps you see 10P lings about 5-10 sec before 14 pool finishes, so I really dont understand what you mean "15 pool finishes, then queen, then OL, then IF I see lings..." That sounds more like 16-17 pool... ? 15p is fine vs 10pool. your nat isn't going to instantly die because lings are attacking it for a few seconds
But ~35 seconds isnt "few". If you see lings and then you make queen and then OL and after that lings, you have no chance holding your natural.
But ofc 15 pool with OL before queen can hold natural just as easy as my build, I just like 14 pool better. 5 sec earlier pool cost about 3-4 mineras in mining time, totally worth it imho.
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On April 10 2013 05:56 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 05:51 Sek-Kuar wrote:On April 09 2013 21:11 Henk wrote:On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong? If I'm not mistaken, a 15p should do just fine against a 10 pool. If he focuses your hatch, pull some drones at the same time your lings pop. You should be able to hold your base (with a bit of attacking-retreating from both, don't pull too many drones). Once queen pops, walk it down. Then epending on how fast his gas is, take ling speed or baneling nest. ( I always go 15P 16H 17G, queen, overlord. You then save some larvae until your ovl pops (2 larvae) which can be lings or drones depending on if you see lings or a base. In a 4p map just make lings from these larvae to be safe. Some players go 15p 16h 16g but 17g works just fine for me. Edit: A plain 10pool is aiming to cancel your expo. If you cancel it, you're a bit behind. If you hold, you're way ahead if you didn't lose drones. You can not possibly ever have that vs 10pool. I play 14P 15H OL and when I see lings inc I can make queen + lings but they pop after his lings are already attacking my expo. My point is, on all 2 player maps you see 10P lings about 5-10 sec before 14 pool finishes, so I really dont understand what you mean "15 pool finishes, then queen, then OL, then IF I see lings..." That sounds more like 16-17 pool... ? 15p is fine vs 10pool. your nat isn't going to instantly die because lings are attacking it for a few seconds
This is correct unless you didn't save larva and used it all on drones and overlord then you will lose it.
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Can anyone give me standard BO's for every MU. I just changed to zerg and know nothing about the MU
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When do I add a baneling nest after a 15 hatch when my opponent has 15 hatched as well but is doing a speedling timing?
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On April 11 2013 05:56 Incubus1993 wrote:
When do I add a baneling nest after a 15 hatch when my opponent has 15 hatched as well but is doing a speedling timing?
This is up to you, I personally will do baneling nest first unless I scout that our gases are the same timing which I will then get speed first. If his gas is before mine I get bane first, if his gas is after mine I get speed first.
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On April 09 2013 15:58 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 12:08 Dynamitekid wrote:
Do you guys hotkey your banelings in the same group as your zerglings? In ZvZ it's pretty good to have hot keys for banelings only to properly micro in bane/ling wars, in the other match ups not so much.
Why not the other MUs aswell ? It's a waste to not use them separately in ZvT... I always get a facepalm everytime I see banes exploding against tanks or marauders or even getting destroyed by mines...
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On April 09 2013 20:50 StillRooney wrote:
How do I best deal with 10pool in ZvZ? My standard opening is blind 15pool 16 hatch but this just seems to plain die to 10pool, by the time my overlord sees that they have no natural expo the lings are well on their way to my base. Do I need to always dronescout on 2 player maps? If so, at what supply? Or is my build fine and I'm just doing something terribly wrong?
15p is the counter to 10p. If you do 15p 16h 15ovie, you can just delay your queen once you see the lings coming and make 3 sets of lings yourself before making your queen. If he targets your hatch just bring your first 4 lings and some drones to prevent him from killing your hatch. You'll have around the same drone count as him but an earlier expo so you should be ahead.
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Can a 15 hatch 15 pool defend against 10 pool?
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In zvz if you have researched 2/2 for mutas is the proper move to tech hive for more upgrades or to just continue making mutas?
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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2013 11:40 Tikihut wrote:
In zvz if you have researched 2/2 for mutas is the proper move to tech hive for more upgrades or to just continue making mutas?
I'm just assuming this is muta v muta ZvZ (I see no reason why you would invest so heavily in muta upgrades otherwise). In my experience, if you have 3-4 bases up and functional and a healthy flock of mutas, it's all right to start considering switching your tech to roach/hydra/infestor or SH/hydra/infestor (or ultra/ling/infestor). You should also start the tech switch if 1) your opponent starts to switch tech AND 2) there are no timing windows available for straight-up killing him while he tech switches.
On April 11 2013 05:56 Incubus1993 wrote:
When do I add a baneling nest after a 15 hatch when my opponent has 15 hatched as well but is doing a speedling timing?
After 15 hatch, get speed first then baneling nest and build a lot of speedlings with your first inject larva (~8-10 pairs of lings). Doing so will allow you to hold any kind of speedling pressure with ease, be aggressive if your opponent is greedy, or baneling bust with good control for some economic advantage. Blade is right that you have the choice to get baneling nest before OR after speed, but I think that (as long as your control is fairly strong) going for a speedling opening is good because it allows you more choices to affect the flow of the game.
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how do i keep my money low im diamond protoss and i keep money low all the time but as zerg i always end up flooding atleast 1.5k minerals and barely enough gas, I still win heaps of games against diamonds as zerg but i feel uncomfortable with so many minerals... it usually starts flooding around 14-15 minutes in. I try building everything i can i try go mass lings to keep it low but it just goes back up in no time
by the end of an average game my queen energy is generally around 40-60 when it gets to 50 should i put a macro hatch down or what?
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United States4883 Posts
On April 11 2013 12:26 FireMonkey wrote:
how do i keep my money low im diamond protoss and i keep money low all the time but as zerg i always end up flooding atleast 1.5k minerals and barely enough gas, I still win heaps of games against diamonds as zerg but i feel uncomfortable with so many minerals... it usually starts flooding around 14-15 minutes in. I try building everything i can i try go mass lings to keep it low but it just goes back up in no time
by the end of an average game my queen energy is generally around 40-60 when it gets to 50 should i put a macro hatch down or what?
It's hard to say without some context as to the army composition you have, whether or not you're constantly making trades, whether you're being defensive or aggressive, etc., etc. But as a general rule, if you have a lot of minerals, just keep dumping them into hatcheries, static defense, and replacing drones. Lings are not a great mineral dump. Once you max out and you're on 4-5 bases, it's natural for money start stockpiling as zerg; accept it as your bank and use it to remax when you do a big trade.
Queen management is something I've been working on a lot lately. If your queen energy is getting high, you can 1) place a macro hatch next to the queen so you can get a few double injects off and get rid of that excess energy, 2) swap queens so that high energy queens are next to macro hatcheries, or 3) send that queen off to go spread creep and start a new one (do this immediately after injecting and the new queen will finish in time for the next inject). Extra tip: in lategame scenarios when you're already banking 15+ larva at a hatchery, start injecting another hatchery (ex: send your queens at natural and 3rd to your 4th and 5th to start banking larva at those hatcheries).
Hope this helps some!
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Hi I got 2 questions!
In ZVZ if they go for gas first instead of pool or hatchery how do I deal with this? They are doing this to get faster and more mutas out before I do. How do I counter this?
In ZvP I hardly see any swarmhost play by the koreans, they usually all go muta mid game and it seems to be doing fairly well. Is this better then the swarmhost play in most matches? It seems like getting mutas will destroy the protoss and end the game pretty easily. How do I go executing this strategy?
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EPT
