EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 34
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d07.RiV
Russian Federation50 Posts
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Thienan567
United States670 Posts
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TortoiseCa
Canada104 Posts
On April 15 2013 02:29 Thienan567 wrote: Whats the best way to beat a turtling toss? SH or mutas? Transitions? I just played a zvp where toss just got phoenixes->collosi and airtoss. I tried to trade with a couple of extra bases but my armies just melt. What do I do? Transitions once I get hive tech? I find SH work well with Corruptors vs toss air because you're containing them to 2 bases and u can snipe observers and have lings ready to delay ground forces | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
Thanks a lot  | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
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matgopack
United States8 Posts
 Thanks in advance! | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
For example, in WoL, most protoss would FFE after 3 gate and 1 gate expo faded out of vogue. Every once and a while, someone would do something weird that didn't allow the 3 base play that was popularized by players like SlayerS_Min that is the standard today. He opened DT, 4 gate, 1 base stargate, gate expo, or some weird allin. The play for a zerg player was pretty fleshed out, though. You either got a roach warren, started some upgrades, a lair and scouted stuff out to see what was going on, then you either did roach aggression while expanding or started expanding investing in gas units (most likely infestors). In HotS, though, I think it's not so black and white. In ZvP you have to press your advantages early to keep the air deathball from forming. In ZvT I feel like zergs want to get a lot of bases up fast to choke out a terran before his medivac count gets unruly or he gets a trillion mines or the air deathball. At least for me, I have basically 1-2 ways of getting to where I want to get in the game, and without opening the way I usually do, I can't get into the situation I need. So, for an in game example, I feel like the only way I can get to a decent economy to lean protoss out of the game is to get that swarmhost contain going while expanding and adding in tech, and opening 2 base, it just doesn't seem like the resources line up in a certain way to let that work. I either get caught with not enough swarmhost/hydras or I get there too late and their colossus count is already good enough to rebuke my contain and now I can't expand in the way I need to get the hive tech army I want to keep him from getting the economy he needs to get the air deathball. So, what I'm looking for is what I'm going for if something weird happens early and I can't go for my standard in ZvP and ZvT. Thanks | ||
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CamoDaz
United Kingdom19 Posts
I saw a SH 2 base timing on here a few weeks back and lately Khaldor also posting a guide on the timing. How viable is this build? Does anyone here use it often or is it not something to rely on? | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
At what point should you simply pull back at let him have his base? | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On April 15 2013 19:55 CamoDaz wrote: Really having trouble against toss whenever it gets past the 15 min mark so I figured I should attempt to hit a timing to deny a third and hits earlier. In WOL I was really dependent upon the 12 min max out and now I simply go roach hydra but die multiple times to 4+ collosi with sentries and eventually some air mixed in. I saw a SH 2 base timing on here a few weeks back and lately Khaldor also posting a guide on the timing. How viable is this build? Does anyone here use it often or is it not something to rely on? SH 2 bases is a strong build, but if you want to improve, you should play standard 3 hatch gasless macro games. Roach hydra is usually a terrible composition against protoss, there are way better compositions like SH/Hydra/Viper. Check Blade builds : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758 | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On April 15 2013 20:05 gronnelg wrote: When you get to contain your opponent (either on 1 base, or 2 base), how long can you safely keep contain? At what point should you simply pull back at let him have his base? It really depends about the game, but usually you want to go out before you lose everything when he breaks the contain. You should also prepare for the counter attack, because usually, opponents will push just after breaking your contain. Can't say more, it's very a very game-specific situation, you should send the replay if you want more tips. | ||
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Bearwidme
Australia57 Posts
On April 15 2013 14:36 matgopack wrote: Hey all, I'm struggling in ZvZ right now (at Plat level). It just seems that if the game goes past 10 minutes, I win easily- but before then, I usually get stomped by ling baneling attacks. Does anyone have any tips/strategies for the matchup? I'm not having any problems with T or P, or at least not nearly enough. It's just the crazy agressive ling baneling attacks that cause me a ton of trouble Thanks in advance! You need to understand that just because you can win most 10+min games doesn't make you a better player than the guys who 'cheese'. There's this terrible stigma that macro means you are a superior player to the guy who six pools like a boss however i think there's another type of 'cheese' that a lot of people ignore - it's called greed. You can get away with greed in zvp and zvt (to an extent) because they dont have lightning fast armies, doesn't work in zvz - you have to always be prepared to defend a flood of units. You achieve this with excellent scouting (hard to do) or you play defensive baneling every game and cop the economic hit that comes with that kind of build. You will find that you struggle with the 10+min games because you aren't greed cheesing. Best advice is to DO ling bling all ins, go fucking nuts. Make it your go to build, master it, love it. You'll learn timings, you'll learn when the lings are popping, you'll learn when gas should be going down and then when you go back to the macro game you'll laugh when you see the pathetic excuse that some scrub calls a ling/bling all in and you'll crush it because you know it's coming 30 seconds before it hits and you know the perfect number of banelings you need to stop it. It's about experience, you need to experience it from both POVs. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On April 15 2013 19:55 CamoDaz wrote: Really having trouble against toss whenever it gets past the 15 min mark so I figured I should attempt to hit a timing to deny a third and hits earlier. In WOL I was really dependent upon the 12 min max out and now I simply go roach hydra but die multiple times to 4+ collosi with sentries and eventually some air mixed in. I saw a SH 2 base timing on here a few weeks back and lately Khaldor also posting a guide on the timing. How viable is this build? Does anyone here use it often or is it not something to rely on? I don't like two base swarmhost because cannons at his natural and a proxy pylon is bad news for it. If you invest in enough swarmhosts to break into his natural you have no defense at your base and you die to the first warp in that comes. But a lot of protoss don't realize that and will try to fight you head on. I actually think that protoss is really strong in the early game in comparison to zerg. Once you have hive tech things even out a bit though. Vipers force protoss to get templar which eats up gas that they would otherwise spend on things that kill ultralisks. As long as you're not swamped by protoss air hydras can do the job. And cracklings are still underrated. They synergize with vipers as well since you can pick out all the aoe units that would kill your cracklings at the start of the fight and be remaxing on cracklings as you do this. Hitting your melee and armor upgrades is important as well. Protoss will be ahead of you in upgrades due to chronoboost. Don't make it worse by forgetting yours. If you don't check the protoss upgrades and compare them to yours before you decide on commiting to a large engagement you could lose. Try some hive tech you'll like it  . | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On April 14 2013 20:15 StillRooney wrote: Heya peeps. My ZvP is pretty weak at the moment because I don't really feel that I understand the matchup very well. This game the P went very early third that he cannoned up like crazy and went into total airtoss. I'd love some critique on what my biggest leaks are and what I could have done better. Thanks in advance! http://drop.sc/323604 A few things: Your build order is bad. A hatch first should get killed any FFE protoss with proper cannoning. Aside from that you have 44 drones at 8min when you should have around 60. In ZvP maximizing your 3-base economy is of pivotal importance so your BO needs to improve. A good and detailed guide is TangSc's http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403783 Aside from that he really shouldn't have been able to get that third up. He went for a 3 base FFE with 1 zealot for defense. That should never ever be allowed. Spread your OL to his expo and get lings over there the second he tries something like that. In general once Toss get a maxed air death ball you have lost. Against mass Carrier/VR there simply is no real counter (unless you outplay him with a retarded margin). So you need to kill him before he gets that composition. Either a roach max timing straight through his natural or a SH/Hydra push or nydus his main or whatever you like. But the ZvP matchup has changed in the sense that when Protoss is going air, the longer you wait the slimmer your chances will be. | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On April 15 2013 09:14 nomyx wrote: What are the best builds for cheesing? I don't care for improving and I want to play a new race but all I want to do is win. The only cheeses I know from Z is 6 pool, 7RR, and baneling busts. How good are they in each match-up aka if I was in a ZvP/T/Z which one should I choose? best cheeses in zerg match-ups? | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
zvz (Speedling all in) 15p 15g 17hatch, double queen, make all lings zvt (there isn't any, terran can defend any all in ez honestly) zvp (2 base nydus hydra) or (2 base swarm host, with nydus,spore, queen) | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
What's a standard lategame army in ZvZ? Before I quit it was all about roach infestor, now I'm told infestors have been nerfed and Mutas rule the matchup. However I played a guy yesterday who built 2 quick evo chambes for fast upgrades, turtled with spines and spores while massing infestors and pressuring me with mass ling runbys. I outexpanded him but had no idea what to transition into. The mutas turned out to be paperweights vs mass infestors backed by corruptors and hydras. Losing my army that horribly pretty much lost any map control or economic advantage I had, and I eventually lost. I can see why people are favoring mutas; they give you the map control to outexpand your opponent. That being said, I have no idea what a good lategame army in ZvZ is and how do deal with mass infestors backed by ling / hydra / corruptor. Should have transitioned sooner I guess, but into what? Also, how viable are vipers vs marine / tank / medivac play? | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:39 TheSubtleArt wrote: Quit WoL over a year ago, came back now for HotS (I was mid-high masters before I quit). I haven't watched any Sc2 games or kept up with the scene so I have no idea what people are doing now. What's a standard lategame army in ZvZ? Before I quit it was all about roach infestor, now I'm told infestors have been nerfed and Mutas rule the matchup. However I played a guy yesterday who built 2 quick evo chambes for fast upgrades, turtled with spines and spores while massing infestors and pressuring me with mass ling runbys. I outexpanded him but had no idea what to transition into. The mutas turned out to be paperweights vs mass infestors backed by corruptors and hydras. Losing my army that horribly pretty much lost any map control or economic advantage I had, and I eventually lost. I can see why people are favoring mutas; they give you the map control to outexpand your opponent. That being said, I have no idea what a good lategame army in ZvZ is and how do deal with mass infestors backed by ling / hydra / corruptor. Should have transitioned sooner I guess, but into what? Also, how viable are vipers vs marine / tank / medivac play? I'm in a train so short answer to both: Zvz: yes, mutas rule. When you get to higher leagues you'll see more muta v muta simply because turtling to infestors doesn't work. When I see the other player is not going for mutas, I stop at 16 mutas and then go for double upgraded lings into a very quick hive. Since he can't move out (if he moves before having an adequate number of hydras/infestors he'll waste a ton of energy on fungaling single mutas) which means you will be able to get ultras in time. Ultras rape infestor/ling/hydra it's not even funny. Vipers are ok-ish vs marine tank, but I'd rather spend gas on more ultras. Most terrans go bio-mine nowadays, I rarely see marine-tank anymore. Vipers are great vs mech, however. | ||
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