EPTThe (HotS) Terran Help Me Thread Beta - Page 4
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Sent.
Poland9243 Posts
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Grouch
Canada152 Posts
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas. I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't. I've had great success with the following opening, which consists of 20 or so marines with 7-8 upgraded medivacs. 1 rax reaper (take guys off gas once you have enough for reaper). harass with the reaper and deviate as necessary if you scout an allin coming. depot CC Rax Rax (pump marines constantly) put guys back on gas, get 2nd gas stim factory when factory finishes: make 2 starports, start tech lab on factory when tech lab is done, lift and start a reactor get 3rd and 4th gas combat shield swap starports to tech lab and reactor addons when the addons/starports start moving out when you have 3-4 medivacs. Rally your rax and starports to the zerg, boost the medivacs as they come up so they meet up with your army at the zerg's base. Now you have 6-7 medivacs with like 20ish marines with combat shield and stim. This is a really nasty timing for zerg to deal with. The only thing that really deals with it properly in my experience is ling/bling/muta. Anything else dies with good micro. If he does deal with it, it's easy to transition out. When I do this build I usually sneak in a 3rd CC before I put down the starports, and double ebay upgrades started as I move out. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
First off, what do you do vs ultra late game? They are so good now with the buff in combination with viper and crack ling. All of your important units get pulled into the ball and all of your bio gets locked up with blinding cloud. Very scary o.0 Secondly, when are you getting cadacus reactor? Ive been trying to get like 2-4 medivacs out then I swap add-ons to get the upgrade then swap back. Cant really tell which way is better. Anybody have a good idea? | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas. I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't. Not sure about timing attacks, but one good early pressure build ive been using is a 5 rine/widow mine poke. with good micro you can force a boat load of lings. What you want to do is burrow outside of creep and then try and bait a squad of lings into the mine. If you can kill the first group it really hurts the Z cuz they are forced to even build more units then they already wanted to. If you go traditional 10 depot 12 rax 13 refinery, the attack hits safely before speed, unless the Z does a fast gas and pool(but you will easy scout this and know to back off. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 19:55 aksfjh wrote: Should I even be using hellbats with bio? It feels like every time I have to stim and kite back, I'm just sacrificing them to whatever the hell I'm running away from. Use Widow Mines, they are the new Tanks. At least TvZ. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On December 15 2012 08:58 Sent. wrote: I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes? All the games where Zerg mass swarm host to push me i mass up siege tanks + battle hellions and then push him back slowly, each time i kill the locust i unsiege 1/3 of my tanks and push them closer. I also keep scanning his swarm hosts and when i get in range i simply kill them or force him to burrow and retreat. Just don't get to greedy, those locusts in mass numbers can deal out a lot of damage so if they catch to many tanks unsieged it's really bad. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2012 08:58 Sent. wrote: I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes? The best response I've seen so far is using widow mines. Simply have like 6-7 of them waiting and as soon as there is this timing window between spawning locusts, go and burrow them right in front of them. If he doesn't reposition them, you just won the game. If he repositions them, repeat the process. Widow mines are also great for Mutas, so you have 2 options covered by going widow mines. | ||
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urSa
United States77 Posts
On December 14 2012 01:21 Everlong wrote: Any ideas how to play vs Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra with mech? Everything is blinded, all air is wrecked by hydras/corruptors, spreading tanks does nothing as they pick off them one by one.. Try baiting corruptors into 8+ widow mines with vikings...then once corruptors are gone kill the brolords with remaining vikings and thor/hellion can finish off their hydra army  | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Its like playing WoL again except the ultra does full damage to my marines. I've yet to win a game were zerg got to hive tech. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 18 2012 20:52 Everlong wrote: The best response I've seen so far is using widow mines. Simply have like 6-7 of them waiting and as soon as there is this timing window between spawning locusts, go and burrow them right in front of them. If he doesn't reposition them, you just won the game. If he repositions them, repeat the process. Widow mines are also great for Mutas, so you have 2 options covered by going widow mines. That's interesting, I've had almost the opposite experience. Widow Mines aren't very good against Swarm Hosts. In fact, I'd rather have Battle Hellions. There shouldn't be a timing window inbetween Locust lives unless you take them all out before their timer is up. What I have found important with the Swarm Host threat is that as a Mech player, with Widow Mines, you shouldn't be making the standard 4 Thors you would make in WoL. In fact, you can get by with making just 0-1 Thors (0 if you are really confident with your Turret placement, SCV repair reaction, and general ability to respond to Muta threat quickly with everything). This allows you to get Tanks out faster and be prepared for Swarm Hosts. If you are making the 4 Thors like in WoL, you will always lose to this push. That said, I do agree that if you can get Widow Mines on top of the Swarm Hosts by taking the Locusts out quickly or by flanking the Hosts, that is pretty much GG. Though they don't 1 shot them anymore! | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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BlackPanther
United States872 Posts
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On December 20 2012 19:05 BlackPanther wrote: Has anyone had any luck with Hellbat / bio in TvP? I feel like this composition would deal with zealot high templar really well because of the tankiness of hellbats but I'm not sure how to open properly to obtain that composition with ease. It's quite effective, especially with caduceus reactor upgrades. The problem with that comp though, is the all-in nature of helbats. Because helbats cannot stim and their already slow movement speed makes oracles's slow even more effective, helbats often absorb full storm damage as they're near unmicroable under those conditions. With this in mind once you engage, you have to go in or lose all your helbats if you retreat and kiting is not really an option since helbats are .80 slower than mm. In addition, archons go extremely well against a helbat composition as they do bonus damage AND receive the base damage, which is not a lot (hellions attacking hatcheries and buildings). As such, instead of diverting 2 supply to a unit that while great versus zealots, the lack of microability means the supply can be replaced with more valuable units such as more marauders or ghosts. In most cases however, helbats give terran more staying power against an archon/zealot composition, but it's not as good with storms and oracles in play. With those two, your army typically needs to be alot more mobile (MMMG) for both kiting and splitting reasons which are crucial in a TvP bio engagement or it will all melt in a WoL fashion. For the build, i typically follow a normal PvT timing, which is: 3 rax marine heavy after raxless CC into 11 min medivacs. I only start pumping helbats after the 12 or 13th minute into the game, because that's when you start looking for 2 2 and require an armory. This build is good for several reasons. 3 Rax with marine focus helps deal against fast oracle aggression. If they open stargate, u'd be able to deal with it easily and not worry about gateway only timings, which means less bunkers and more structure/unit production. The late game mix should be around 8 helbats with a mix of mmg with good upgrades. Because of the relatively long tech route to obtain the caduceus reactor, i don't really incorporate the them in a 15-16 min push, nor do i get blue flame upgrades. I try to end the game at this particular 200/200 attack because if any later, protoss would have ammassed too much AoE, and if coupled with oracle's slow, i usually lose everything within a short amount of time because i don't have the micro to emp, everything, split affected units from both storm and slow, target fire vikings while keeping them safe and stutter stepping. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On December 20 2012 12:53 Bagi wrote: So how the hell are we supposed to trade cost effectively against new fungals and ultras? Its like playing WoL again except the ultra does full damage to my marines. I've yet to win a game were zerg got to hive tech. Your best bet is the second you see ultras is as folllows Fall back to PFs Start dropping like mad, Ultras weakness is mobility thiss will buy time Throw 3 tech lab factory's and start massing thors Throw down 3 starports and start making banshee. Less tank>>>Thor Bio Banshee hellbat. Cadaceus reactor is an absolute must. (add BC if you have the funds) When you engage ultra, you have to focus fire them down, spread fire will be GG. They are very easy to focus down and they are so big that your whole ball can focus them one at a time. Even when you do all of this, your still going to lose a good amount of games. Ultras require a massive amount of tech switch. Even more than in WoL, so if they do a tech switch your even more behind. | ||
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jliu
282 Posts
On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas. I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't. Polt's marauder/hellion push off 2-base still works. 1Rax FE, 2 Gas, Reactor Hellion, Stim, 2 Addition Rax (Tech/Reactor), and Starport on Reactor after 4-6 hellions.The medivac boost really helps the harrass capability of the 2-base pushes since that's usually right before mutas or infestors. Alternatively, if you go for 3CC, you can produce widow mines instead (2 hellions for map control), which are helpful for a 1/1 push right around lair timing. If you don't overcommit you can still hit the 2/2 timing as well. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
I feel very powerful, the new medivacs can keep a toss on 2 base for a very long time. And now in the late game with regular MMM+Viking+Ghost and the new cadaceus reactor. My army just rolls so hard. Its kind of weird destroying P so hard. | ||
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CapTanObviOs
United States52 Posts
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