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I got inspired with the Zerg thread and I think it's time to make one for Terran.
As a sterter question:
How can I safely open mech play TvP? I just can't get it to work.
For me, the biggest problem is msc/blink. You need to always watch out for DT's or Stargate play.. I think the range of aggresive builds Protoss can execute now is too wide for Terran to have safe macro (mech) opening.
Widow mines are simply not an option, because Stalkers just run around your base with msc and kill every single one.
I'm kinda lost here.. Maybe reactor mines, siege tank + siege tech right away? But then again, you need to watch out for DT's and stuff..
Ideas?
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Nice idea, but I guess your answer won't be simple 
So I try to explain, how I open against protoss if I want to go mech, which I only think is wisely on specific maps (such as Newkirk City and other small maps; on bigger maps I do not feel like I can pressure enough to stop the protoss from getting to many expos).
In general it is super important to scout what the protoss does. If he goes for an early expand you can go for 1x rax exe easily and if he goes for Nexus first, you should go for 1x rax 2x exe.
If he is going for one base I prefer to scan with my 3rd scan to see what is going on.
I stay onebase if I go for mech then, going for fast siege and a lot of marines and vikings and follow up with a late expo.
As you mentioned blink stalker + MSC are fucking hard to hold; if you experience a lot of allins I would rather go for bio, because atm I do not see a chance to hold this early aggression with mech.
Widow mines are not useful against early game protoss in my eyes, DTs can be avoided by turrets or a raven, which is not as hard to get these days.
Another really strong opener you have to look out for, is a fast tempest build. The only way to counter this, in my view, is to go as greedy as possible or simply base trading.
Just my ideas so far
Greetz
Fibbz
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Thank you..
This is kinda what I expected to see, because I really tried hard to make it work and I just failed most of the time. I guess I'll just experiment more, I really want to find a solid opener. :-)
And yeah, I experienced the fast Tempest build, but it requires now Fleet Beacon I think is possible to scout in time. I defended it, because I luckily had starport so I just swapped for reactor and with some micro + scv repair I was able to hold it. But I just want to avoid Starport if possible, isn't it the whole point of widow mines after all? :-(
Teching to Raven seems very risky to me and sets you back economically too much to my liking, but it might be necessary.
I'll upload some replays when I find something interesting..
edit: Oh, and if you happen to have Raven with enough energy for PDD, it can buy you so much time against Tempest..
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Hey all! I JUST got into beta, and I'm in dire needs of tvp mech openings. I enjoyed mech in WoL and im sure the rules have changed for HotS
Anyone have any suggestions of where to start? Maybe we can develop a something here.
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Basically its the same. Tanks, Thors, Hellions (or its more battle hellions) + air support (vikings, raven, bcs) + some ghosts.
I dont think there are any real Buildorders.
My question:
Is there a build order wher you can go fairly economic while not gettin terrible terrible damage by the common stalker, zealot, mothershipcore push?
I think 1 rax expand is too risky when you want to go to mech afterwards. You always get damaged heavily. CC first isnt viable at all etc.
Another thing:
Blink Allin - what is the best way to defend against it? Is it even possible with a "mech" opening?
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OMG what in the world beats swarmhost, hydra, viper? I had 5 bases and all the money I want and he stayed and 4 bases even...I went bio with hellbats in case of mass ling, 3-3 upgrades, mass medivac with the new upgrade. He was defended against drops. I tried to run past swarmhosts but didnt work. Eventually the waves of free units ran me over, he also made some banes and ultras later, but srsly, every time I try to stim and kills the swarmhosts he does blinding cloud with his like 5 or more vipers, I am forced to run and take tons of damage from the hydras. Do I have to get tanks even when i am going bio and tanks are not even upgraded? Also he can blind the tanks and then cant move out of it...This is even worse than brood infestor in wol. Any ideas or is this really a balance issue?
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Ok here is a question ive been struggling with for a while.
I feel like I'm mechanically better and have better multitasking than most of the people I play (I am in platinum), but I often kind of "wing it" and I think it's holding me back a ton. I really don't really have any solid build orders that I can rely on, and sometimes think to myself "WTF am I doing?!".
I think my chances of getting in diamond or maybe masters is pretty good if I kick ass in the beta, so my question to you is what are some solid builds us mediocre terrans can practice to push us to the next level? I realize its early to really assess the meta game at this point, but looking for maybe some suggestions.
Thanks TL you kick ass
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I've been doing mech most of my games so far. I just started playing since new patch. I open gas first (on 12) then cut scv to get 12 barracks. Rush out reactor mines. Keep rallying mines to Protoss base, micro them from time to time when they're on cooldown. Keep making marines out of barracks for safety. Expand, get more factories, go into full mech. Mines are really good against Protoss from what I've seen so far.
If you make it to late game with decent bank and near max, start transitioning into air since you get free 3/3.
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On maps where blink stalkers can only get in through a limited area, widow mines are effective enough to open mech. You have to put them out of range of the stalkers on the low ground so they have to blink into range of the mine to attack it. Otherwise it's not possible. I think if the mothership core wasn't mobile then it could work, but a flying detector that early in the game means that tanks, hellions, and widow mines aren't flexible enough to deal with Protoss aggression.
I just can't figure out how to kill the mothership core with a mech opening. Adding a quick starport hurts your unit count a lot, plus blink stalkers can easily snipe off the one or two vikings. Quick thor is soooo risky. It can kill it, but it would basically be your only unit.
On the other hand, bio-mech play should be a LOT stronger, since upgrades are combined. I wonder if marine/tank/viking could work against Protoss now. I'll try it over the next few days.
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Anyone able to successfully rush protoss?
Marine/scv, 2rax (concussive), and 3rax+stim are all very ineffective for me at the moment, even against opponents who are going 1gate expo. They just seem invulnerable with ms core + cheap dt's.
1/1/1 appears to be pretty strong still though.
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In WoL I meched all the time against toss, and it worked. But I just cant get it to work in HotS. The problem is three-fold for me. First there is that even if I get a mech army, the toss kinda expects it and they arent as clueless as in WoL about what to do against mech. Next we got that the mech boosts. Hellbat is nice, no complaining there, and while thors removal of energy bar means you can use them against toss, the only reason you want to use them against toss is as anti-air, which wasnt needed in the first place in WoL because toss air was worse (and even if it was useful against mech, they still didnt make it). Okay they are nice against archons too, but that just means archons get replaced by immortals.
But then the main problem I have, is getting to mech in the first place without falling enormously behind. The initial stalkers, zealot, mcore poke is already a bitch to hold off, let alone if he really does an offensive strategy. In WoL I opened with cloak banshee harras to buy me the required time, but that is pointless in hots for so many reasons.
Blizzard keeps doing desperate attempts at making reapers relevant in TvP, but besides breaking them in TvT they dont achieve much with it, so reapers to buy time are also off.
I can try what Scila said, mass mines. However from my usage of mines my conclusion is that they are pretty close to useless against toss, and overrated against most other races. They have some use, like a burrowed lings on expansion location, but then better, however in the end a toss just kills them all one at a time. And with mcore they dont even need observers to do it.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Hello!
Tried playing Zerg in HOTS but it feels weird, so I swapped back to Terran pre-2.0.2 and have been playing it post patch. I still feel really weak late game vs Protoss and have not gotten comfortable with the new units at all. I feel like with the huge armory buff that mech is viable/necessary because bio against colossi/templar feels too fragile even with the medivac buff.
Also how are people dealing with reapers in TvT? I almost always open reaper now just to counter reaper and it leads to crazy situations. Is there a list of maps where reaper is bad/good? There are some maps where it is so hard to defend vs reaper if you open 1rax cc or something.
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Is there a way to open save in TvT without Reapers? With all that lag from EU its a waste to even try and micro reapers.
And is there any source of generel builds? I'm really lost in nearly all matchups, because I don't want to play WoL style and try to use the new units what ends up in having like a few of each of them.
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When I open mines I always contain protoss first then get the battle helion asap with 1 or 2 medivac.
Late game is a bigger problem for me when protoss goes zealot mass immortals... I can't find anything else than a sky terran switch a this point.
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I've been experimenting with reaper openings in all matchups and they seem strongest in TvT so far. I've had the most trouble with the build when they get widow mines. If they get marauders and/or bunkers i just keep expanding. Doing a banshee followup to reapers seems strong too, since reapers can keep their marine count down.
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In TvP, I find rushing for Thor and pushing out with a handful of SCVs and Reactor Marines really effective, especially if you proxy the Thor and immediately upgrade armor.
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I have a question about the mine : in what situation do you build hellions and when to build mines ?
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I have a question: since the new patch I win virtually all games as Terran. Any advice?
User was temp banned for this post.
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With the new buff to medivac healing has anyone experimented on Terran bio coupled with Hellbats since heal effects them too (looking at it like firebat with no stim). And does anyone think it's a viable playstyle?
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Masters Terran here -- Have people had any success with MMM + Hellbat vs Zerg when they go Roach/Hydra/Swarm Host?
I've been getting raped every game when trying this out.. Is it a must to get tanks out vs this composition? There have been games when I havent even been able to take a 3rd base b/c Roach/Hydra/SH is so strong, they just contain you...
Whats a good opener that people have found to be effective? Reactor Hellions? Just straight bio?
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I had problem with hydra, baneling and viper. This compo is sooo strong against marines, marauders, hellbats, medivacs.
Viper makes a cloud so baneling can go to contact with no damages, with behind the dps of hydra. I think i'm going to try mec. And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ?
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And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ?
TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much.
I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this?
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Isn't opening with a defensive Marauder or two enough to hold the Reapers? With the range and armor they have i would have thought that was enough. What about with a couple of well positioned bunkers for the range and cuz Reapers cant dent them?
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On December 10 2012 16:09 DeCoup wrote:
Isn't opening with a defensive Marauder or two enough to hold the Reapers? With the range and armor they have i would have thought that was enough. What about with a couple of well positioned bunkers for the range and cuz Reapers cant dent them?
The problem with that is if you do defensive marauders and or bunkers you have almost no way of knowing if there is just 1 reaper or more.
What means you are far behind if he just builds 1 and expanding directly.
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I have been doing naked rax (4-5 marines) fast tank rush -> cc.. It shuts down basically any reaper gimmick. It's also not that bad economically and you can add starport easily to shut down banshee/widow mine drops follow up.
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On December 10 2012 11:53 NKexquisite wrote:
Masters Terran here -- Have people had any success with MMM + Hellbat vs Zerg when they go Roach/Hydra/Swarm Host?
I've been getting raped every game when trying this out.. Is it a must to get tanks out vs this composition? There have been games when I havent even been able to take a 3rd base b/c Roach/Hydra/SH is so strong, they just contain you...
Whats a good opener that people have found to be effective? Reactor Hellions? Just straight bio?
Swarm host is actually damn good versus Terran. It buyes Zerg enough time to macro up.. I have found that 4-5 tanks can shut down basically any number of Swarm hosts. Then you need to either break wit via unsiege -> scan -> gogogo... Or you need to go around them and counter-attack. I tried Raven + 2-3 banshees as a "anti-sh" force, but it's shut down by hydras/muts, or even corruptors pretty hard.
Very good opener is 1rax expo -> 4 hellions for scout/creepy deny/force lings -> few widow mines. This way, you can go for very fast 3rd + dual upgrades and you don't have to worry about roach or bling busts.. You can play very greedy vs Zerg using widow mines.
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The actual TvT opening is at least one reaper, followed bay Marauder+shells.Two marauders+one reaper scout and stop anything.If he goes for banshee+cloak,go for ebay+turrets as always.The safest BO is the 1-1-1+expand.Anything else is too greedy.BIO still doesnt work in TvT.Medivacs are buffed but they are only for drops.With turret rings and mines defending bases a Mech or BioMEchWoL player win.You just cant engage and maps dont allow you to go arround
and snipe bases and go home,because you find yourself sieged and it goes to baserace when you usually lose.
TvP still almost the same,but worse hehe.In blink maps like CKingdom no way to stop it without marauders,but as we see its usually all in,so if you stop it,you win.Late game is gettinw worse and worse.Mech still so bad to move and hard to expand and keep.Siege tanks dont move,but Protoss siege unit,the Tempes can even fly!!!Lot of vikings+thors+hellbat is he way to go.Tanks totally useless.Widow mines only for early agression.DT drops and zealots in late game still killing too much.You cant defend and move out.Meanwhile the P got 5-6 bases+5-6 cannons and hellions cant harras.IF Protoss goes to mass air,nothing can kill Carriers+TEmpest.Not even ghosts help,because Tempest outranges tanks and they can storm your Vikings.I am watching lot of streams and Terran cant make Mech work.
TvZ.Almost same issues here.Bio doesnt work because of Infestor or Viper.MEdivacs help a lot,but still spore+spines+some lings deny drops.The new Ultra helps a lot to kill the BIO.Roach+Hydra+Infestor/Viper is so cost efficient vs BIO..Mech is OK,but Vipers deny tanks and new Roach+Hydra are better and quicker.I dont fear so much the Swarm Host.Its like Siege tank and you can drop on it or go arround and kill them and they need a lot of them as well to become a danger for you and we need tanks.The old reactor hellion+banshee still ok,but I see T masters going for lot of marines+hellions trying to deny the 3rd.Widow mines are again for early agression and die too easy in late game.
As I see it,we need a different reaper.Make him with bonus vs Armored.So he will be good vs Protoss and Roaches.For now is too good vs T and does nothing vs Z and P.Its fast but too escape from speedlings you need the upgrade and it is in the Factory.Too late.Maybe an ability like the Oracle for killing workers for energy will be the answer and when not used he stays antiarmored???
Tanks and air vs P still an issue.It seems like every P unit is faster then Terrans.Hellions are quick,but too weak and do nothing in their actual state.Dont know how to improve this,the only thing I think is some kind of ability for tanks to shoot and move while sieged???It will be too imba in the other MU,but with some kind of cooldown and limited time maybe???
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On December 10 2012 07:38 dronescout wrote:
With the new buff to medivac healing has anyone experimented on Terran bio coupled with Hellbats since heal effects them too (looking at it like firebat with no stim). And does anyone think it's a viable playstyle?
Yes. I think Hellbats are fucking INSANE in TvZ combined with Medivacs. Try dropping hellbats behind the Mineralline and watch them kill 50 Lings. I would say Fire... Hellbats are probably the best new Unit in HotS for Terran, its really good in all Matchups. But I really don't know how to use the WidowMine, expect like 2-4 for a little bit of base/drop defense.
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On December 10 2012 19:31 Dvriel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The actual TvT opening is at least one reaper, followed bay Marauder+shells.Two marauders+one reaper scout and stop anything.If he goes for banshee+cloak,go for ebay+turrets as always.The safest BO is the 1-1-1+expand.Anything else is too greedy.BIO still doesnt work in TvT.Medivacs are buffed but they are only for drops.With turret rings and mines defending bases a Mech or BioMEchWoL player win.You just cant engage and maps dont allow you to go arround
and snipe bases and go home,because you find yourself sieged and it goes to baserace when you usually lose.
TvP still almost the same,but worse hehe.In blink maps like CKingdom no way to stop it without marauders,but as we see its usually all in,so if you stop it,you win.Late game is gettinw worse and worse.Mech still so bad to move and hard to expand and keep.Siege tanks dont move,but Protoss siege unit,the Tempes can even fly!!!Lot of vikings+thors+hellbat is he way to go.Tanks totally useless.Widow mines only for early agression.DT drops and zealots in late game still killing too much.You cant defend and move out.Meanwhile the P got 5-6 bases+5-6 cannons and hellions cant harras.IF Protoss goes to mass air,nothing can kill Carriers+TEmpest.Not even ghosts help,because Tempest outranges tanks and they can storm your Vikings.I am watching lot of streams and Terran cant make Mech work.
TvZ.Almost same issues here.Bio doesnt work because of Infestor or Viper.MEdivacs help a lot,but still spore+spines+some lings deny drops.The new Ultra helps a lot to kill the BIO.Roach+Hydra+Infestor/Viper is so cost efficient vs BIO..Mech is OK,but Vipers deny tanks and new Roach+Hydra are better and quicker.I dont fear so much the Swarm Host.Its like Siege tank and you can drop on it or go arround and kill them and they need a lot of them as well to become a danger for you and we need tanks.The old reactor hellion+banshee still ok,but I see T masters going for lot of marines+hellions trying to deny the 3rd.Widow mines are again for early agression and die too easy in late game.
As I see it,we need a different reaper.Make him with bonus vs Armored.So he will be good vs Protoss and Roaches.For now is too good vs T and does nothing vs Z and P.Its fast but too escape from speedlings you need the upgrade and it is in the Factory.Too late.Maybe an ability like the Oracle for killing workers for energy will be the answer and when not used he stays antiarmored???
Tanks and air vs P still an issue.It seems like every P unit is faster then Terrans.Hellions are quick,but too weak and do nothing in their actual state.Dont know how to improve this,the only thing I think is some kind of ability for tanks to shoot and move while sieged???It will be too imba in the other MU,but with some kind of cooldown and limited time maybe???
From a zerg point of view in ZvT, uses mines only to delay the third and defend against mutas, no real point to eat up supply and factory time in them past that. Mech is easy to deal with currently, with roach hydra viper. Bio is brutal with bf hellbats though, a drop heavy style butchers ling play, I'm having lot of trouble dealing with delayed tanks bio coupled with a lot of harass and the terran expanding behind. Once he's comfortable on three bases he goes double factory and finally tanks, on some maps at that point mines can be useful again, one or two on some common pathways allow you to detect runbys and clear packs of lings.
I've ran into that a couple of times and it's the hardest style I've met so far, hope it gives you some ideas.
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Hi guys, anyone can post up some mech TvZ replay?
I am a pure bio terran and struggling when I try out Mech.
This is a replay that I have went mech and it's a prime example how I lose the game.
http://drop.sc/283787
A few things that I don't know well enough:
Muta timing. (as you can see in the replay lol)
How/when to do bfhellion harass. I feel like if I move out my hellions, my tanks will be completely exposed.
When can I grab the 3rd and 4th.
Building placement to stop ling runby.
Is that map BAD for Mech? I have no idea how to secure my 5th when it is so far away.
A lot of bad plays here and there but it was really fun to play. So I am hoping some can give me some advice so I can do more mech games
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What is the "new standard" opener for TvZ these days? It seems porting over the standard CC into Hellion/Banshee has some holes in it now that hydras are much more frequently used since that unit performs well against both. I'm having some issues of Roach/Hydra off 2 bases crashing into my base when I have a handful of Hellions and a Banshee. It seems to hit right around the time my additional barracks are finishing and I'm just starting tank production.
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On December 10 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ? TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much. I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this?
You can counter reaper with reactor hellion, marauder concussive, marine marauder, bunkers, widow mine.
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On December 13 2012 00:20 Tenks wrote:
What is the "new standard" opener for TvZ these days? It seems porting over the standard CC into Hellion/Banshee has some holes in it now that hydras are much more frequently used since that unit performs well against both. I'm having some issues of Roach/Hydra off 2 bases crashing into my base when I have a handful of Hellions and a Banshee. It seems to hit right around the time my additional barracks are finishing and I'm just starting tank production.
Standard bio build order is the 1 rax expand into 3rd command center double upgrades with hellion banshee harass into mass marine marauder medivac micro. Most commonly seen on dragons stream. Something I use is 1-1-1 expo into harass or 1 rax expo into 3 factory harass.
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Can anyone give me a basic opening to play mech in tvt?
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On December 08 2012 17:56 Everlong wrote:
I got inspired with the Zerg thread and I think it's time to make one for Terran.
As a sterter question:
How can I safely open mech play TvP? I just can't get it to work.
For me, the biggest problem is msc/blink. You need to always watch out for DT's or Stargate play.. I think the range of aggresive builds Protoss can execute now is too wide for Terran to have safe macro (mech) opening.
Widow mines are simply not an option, because Stalkers just run around your base with msc and kill every single one.
I'm kinda lost here.. Maybe reactor mines, siege tank + siege tech right away? But then again, you need to watch out for DT's and stuff..
Ideas?
I have played A TON of tvp mech games in both hots and wol
What i used to do in wol is 1 rax fe and then play reactionary based on what my opponent did.
1 base allin -> go bio with 3 rax stim and +1, delay mech transistion.
2 base tech -> get a reactor on rax, get factory started asap. when factory is done make armory tech lab and starport.
then make a thor, since you will be able to defend pressure by mass repairing it. get a third when money allows (you will have 400 a little after factory is done.)
2 base allin -> if you can scout it in time, do 3 rax bio instead of mech, however if you can't: get the thor asap and buy time by making more bunkers/massrepair.
In hots its alot harder to open mech, mostly because you need to have enough anti air to deal with msc/oracles, and that kinda removes the viability of doing fast tanks/hellions/banshees.
so far i haven't found a solution, so i mostly just do 1 rax fe -> 3 rax starport -> 10 min mmm push -> mech when i do mech builds
However i can recommend you to play bio in tvp since mech is straight up underpowered.
If you choose to do mech anyway, i can recommend you to do mid-lategame hellion based pushes with tank/thor support, since the new hellions are really really good. I feel like alot of mech tvp players make the common mistake of thinking they don't have to play aggressive since mech needs to get a 200/200 max of gas heavy units in tvt and tvz to function. However this isen't the case since protoss can play costeffecient against terran high tier units. By attacking you force him to use his gateways instead of making additional immortals/carriers/whatever units that counter mech very very well.
Also the common respond from protoss is to take a fast greedy third, which you can punish with something like this.
about me:
+ Show Spoiler +i am masters on eu and na, and was gm in hots like 2 months ago.(haven't played it alot recently)
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On December 13 2012 05:05 hiru wrote:
Can anyone give me a basic opening to play mech in tvt?
The actual metagame in TvZ from WoL:reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee,trying to deny the 3rd of Z and you transition to anything you want,but for mech go for early armory and 2-3 factories+lab to get Thors before 11 minute,when mutas usually come.Mostly Zergs go for muta play to stop banshees and hellions,so you need some turrets and the Thors.LAter you add the factories you can and go full mech.
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On December 10 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +And what about TvT guys? I'm totally lost in this match up, the mine seems too strong, just put them every where in the map.....I think raven have a good future, detecting mines and sniping tanks, but i wonder with what composition : bio or mech ? TvT is almost 90% reaper vs reaper with a coinflip who wins the 1vs1 fight. Blizzard try´s to make reaper viable in every matchup and it is in tvz but it ruins tvt because you need to get 1 rax tech lab. I tried to make reaper work in tvp but with the mothership core you need a second rax for marines and this dealys the CC so much. I have huge problems in tvp right now because Protoss can be incredible greedy because of their death-star-nexus-ability. And Oracle + dt builds are just too cheap and too easy to execute. Is there a hard counter to this?
I actually just ran into the same thing TvP yesterday. Best opening vs this imo is reactor barracks + factory for widow mine. It holds off early msc aggression and lets you expand while setting up mine in the back vs ms core fly bys. You can then reposition mine later to defend vs oracle. 1 mine in each line will make toss think twice before using their ships. The next thing is to get a raven out relatively early and just push marine marauder medivac raven. Raven spots for dts and can use ppd.
The game I tried this I lost because it was my first time playing vs new oracles and forgot to re-position my mine so i lost 15 scvs before my push, which made it a lot weaker. I guess the thing is if they invest so much in early oracles they wont have colossus out in time and medivac bio should be able to destroy everything else given detection.
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On December 13 2012 05:45 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:05 hiru wrote:
Can anyone give me a basic opening to play mech in tvt? The actual metagame in TvZ from WoL:reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee,trying to deny the 3rd of Z and you transition to anything you want,but for mech go for early armory and 2-3 factories+lab to get Thors before 11 minute,when mutas usually come.Mostly Zergs go for muta play to stop banshees and hellions,so you need some turrets and the Thors.LAter you add the factories you can and go full mech.
tvt though
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On December 10 2012 20:03 Swish 41 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 07:38 dronescout wrote:
With the new buff to medivac healing has anyone experimented on Terran bio coupled with Hellbats since heal effects them too (looking at it like firebat with no stim). And does anyone think it's a viable playstyle? Yes. I think Hellbats are fucking INSANE in TvZ combined with Medivacs. Try dropping hellbats behind the Mineralline and watch them kill 50 Lings. I would say Fire... Hellbats are probably the best new Unit in HotS for Terran, its really good in all Matchups. But I really don't know how to use the WidowMine, expect like 2-4 for a little bit of base/drop defense.
I've been doing this as well. I go standard 1 rax expand into 1-1-1 with hellion banshee and research caduceus (instead of cloak or just nothing). Then I just add more rax, reactor the starport, and get another factory for blue flame. Still working on the best ordering. You can trade really well with zerg as long as you split well enough. If banes don't kill the hellbats, they're very hard to kill with just lings. I haven't faced roach hydra though. I feel like that comp needs some siege tanks support still.
I'm currently trying tankless mech in PvT. Mostly hellbat, thor, banshee and vikings if necessary, maybe a raven and lategame BCs. The combined upgrades actually make this is a kickass combo.
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Any ideas how to play vs Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra with mech? Everything is blinded, all air is wrecked by hydras/corruptors, spreading tanks does nothing as they pick off them one by one..
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No ideas how to deal with Viper post patch with 0/3 Vikings not cutting it?
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I'm pretty positive the best strat in TvT right now is reaper-widow-banshee opening with a expansion behind it after factory. Every TvT i play i try and do new things and just lose too many scvs to this strat, i have tried bunkers and slow maraudors but that puts you back economically and leaves you open to banshee harass. And on the maps where there are a lot of cliffs to jump up so when you expand the maraudors need to cover so much room the reapers can still kill many scvs because they are so fast. I also tried just defensive reaper expand but then the widow mines just run up and burrow while his reapers distract yours.
I understand wanting to make reapers better but if it makes fast expanding in tvt not possible and limits what units you can make off 1 base without dying, i think tvt was much better off in WoL, the more skilled player has a much better chance to win tvt in WoL.
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On December 14 2012 20:22 Everlong wrote:
No ideas how to deal with Viper post patch with 0/3 Vikings not cutting it?
The info is unclear.What kind of combo is using your enemy with the Viper? I actually face many Roach/Hydra/Viper and the best way to kill this for me is BIO.
If not the case Viking MUST do well with it.If Z got Hive units your mech upgrades should be 3-0 and at least starting +1a for air...Thors help too
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On December 14 2012 20:41 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:22 Everlong wrote:
No ideas how to deal with Viper post patch with 0/3 Vikings not cutting it? The info is unclear.What kind of combo is using your enemy with the Viper? I actually face many Roach/Hydra/Viper and the best way to kill this for me is BIO. If not the case Viking MUST do well with it.If Z got Hive units your mech upgrades should be 3-0 and at least starting +1a for air...Thors help too
I'm trying to make mech work. Last time I just got delayed until insane army of Zerg swarmed me. Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra.. Roach/Hydra/Viper can get you there because it basically stops your movement. If you dare to move a little bit faster, you get all your tanks blinded and then Roach/Hydra just erases all your Tanks and Thors like they are from paper.
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On December 14 2012 01:21 Everlong wrote:
Any ideas how to play vs Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra with mech? Everything is blinded, all air is wrecked by hydras/corruptors, spreading tanks does nothing as they pick off them one by one..
Mmm...Difficult to say.If this is all he got,you dont need so much tanks, but its all about how many of all this he got.You need lot of Vikings and the cloud should not blind them because of the range.Try snipe them avoiding the cloud or better positioning.Without any replay is difficult to say.Tank/Thor+Viking is the only thing you can use,maybe some Ghosts???
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I tried Ghosts, but there is no time to position them, snipe, emp. It's too micro intensive, at least for me. You need to spread tanks, focus fire air with Thors, focus fire air with Vikings and try to snipe/emp Vipers.. Even then, Vipers will cast blind and Broodlords/Hydras will kill your army.. Vikings are not affected by blind, but you can't chase Broodlords/Vipers, because you would have to fly over Hydras.
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On December 14 2012 20:45 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:41 Dvriel wrote:On December 14 2012 20:22 Everlong wrote:
No ideas how to deal with Viper post patch with 0/3 Vikings not cutting it? The info is unclear.What kind of combo is using your enemy with the Viper? I actually face many Roach/Hydra/Viper and the best way to kill this for me is BIO. If not the case Viking MUST do well with it.If Z got Hive units your mech upgrades should be 3-0 and at least starting +1a for air...Thors help too I'm trying to make mech work. Last time I just got delayed until insane army of Zerg swarmed me. Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra.. Roach/Hydra/Viper can get you there because it basically stops your movement. If you dare to move a little bit faster, you get all your tanks blinded and then Roach/Hydra just erases all your Tanks and Thors like they are from paper.
I see..If you go mech maybe you open reactor hellion+bansee?Or double reactor hellion+Blue Flame?With so many hellions you must be ablo to harass enough to slow him.Try some BFH drops too.Scout his army.I actually find impossible to beat roach/hydra+viper with any tanks.You need mobility to counter the cloud,if not you are dead.If you continue to insist with mech vs this try snipe Vipers with Vikings or Ghost,I think Vipers are psionic...The new Thor and Viking should relly help,but you need lot of them and some tanks to try kill hydras.
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I'm goint to try Ravens today, as PDD could buy enough time for blind to dissapear and then you are left with Thor/Tank vs Hydra/Roach which is perfectly ok. I don't think I'll have enough energy to buy time with PDD and snipe Vipers with Seeker Missile tho.
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On December 14 2012 20:51 Everlong wrote:
I tried Ghosts, but there is no time to position them, snipe, emp. It's too micro intensive, at least for me. You need to spread tanks, focus fire air with Thors, focus fire air with Vikings and try to snipe/emp Vipers.. Even then, Vipers will cast blind and Broodlords/Hydras will kill your army.. Vikings are not affected by blind, but you can't chase Broodlords/Vipers, because you would have to fly over Hydras.
You must harass him all the time with BFH.Believe me it works pretty wll.He cant be in every place so you send 2-3 groups of 4-6 and some drops.This will stop him for sure.I can play Zerg too.If you want we to practice and try find the solution add me. Demon 952
Go check Drewbie stream now.He plays mech vs everything.Right atm is playing vs Zerg
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Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech.
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On December 14 2012 20:54 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:51 Everlong wrote:
I tried Ghosts, but there is no time to position them, snipe, emp. It's too micro intensive, at least for me. You need to spread tanks, focus fire air with Thors, focus fire air with Vikings and try to snipe/emp Vipers.. Even then, Vipers will cast blind and Broodlords/Hydras will kill your army.. Vikings are not affected by blind, but you can't chase Broodlords/Vipers, because you would have to fly over Hydras. You must harass him all the time with BFH.Believe me it works pretty wll.He cant be in every place so you send 2-3 groups of 4-6 and some drops.This will stop him for sure.I can play Zerg too.If you want we to practice and try find the solution add me. Demon 952 Go check Drewbie stream now.He plays mech vs everything.Right atm is playing vs Zerg
Ok, I'll add you if I have time to play today and we can figure out what the answer is.
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On December 14 2012 20:56 Everlong wrote:
Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech.
No,I am not saying to finish him before he gets this.If you harass while he is moving with this will make him spread army and will be easier for you to deal with it.Less hydras or roaches will help a lot.The only thing to deal with Vipers are Vikings or Thors.Stop making tanks and go full Thors and Vikings + BFHellbats.
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On December 14 2012 20:59 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:56 Everlong wrote:
Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech. No,I am not saying to finish him before he gets this.If you harass while he is moving with this will make him spread army and will be easier for you to deal with it.Less hydras or roaches will help a lot.The only thing to deal with Vipers are Vikings or Thors.Stop making tanks and go full Thors and Vikings + BFHellbats.
Hmm, so basically the same way how you deal with TvZ mech in WoL if you fail to hit 2/2 3base timing with mech and he gets Broodlords out.. I can see this working, but I'm interested in direct engagement and how could I possibly match this composition effectively. I mean, Roach/Hydra/Viper is damn fast..
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On December 14 2012 21:02 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:59 Dvriel wrote:On December 14 2012 20:56 Everlong wrote:
Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech. No,I am not saying to finish him before he gets this.If you harass while he is moving with this will make him spread army and will be easier for you to deal with it.Less hydras or roaches will help a lot.The only thing to deal with Vipers are Vikings or Thors.Stop making tanks and go full Thors and Vikings + BFHellbats. Hmm, so basically the same way how you deal with TvZ mech in WoL if you fail to hit 2/2 3base timing with mech and he gets Broodlords out.. I can see this working, but I'm interested in direct engagement and how could I possibly match this composition effectively. I mean, Roach/Hydra/Viper is damn fast..
I have faced lot of T with this Combo and have never lost yet xD Tanks are screwed with the cloud and roach/hydra is too high DPS.If combined with BL+corruptor I just must see how many of them to know what exactly you need
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On December 14 2012 21:13 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 21:02 Everlong wrote:On December 14 2012 20:59 Dvriel wrote:On December 14 2012 20:56 Everlong wrote:
Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech. No,I am not saying to finish him before he gets this.If you harass while he is moving with this will make him spread army and will be easier for you to deal with it.Less hydras or roaches will help a lot.The only thing to deal with Vipers are Vikings or Thors.Stop making tanks and go full Thors and Vikings + BFHellbats. Hmm, so basically the same way how you deal with TvZ mech in WoL if you fail to hit 2/2 3base timing with mech and he gets Broodlords out.. I can see this working, but I'm interested in direct engagement and how could I possibly match this composition effectively. I mean, Roach/Hydra/Viper is damn fast.. I have faced lot of T with this Combo and have never lost yet xD Tanks are screwed with the cloud and roach/hydra is too high DPS.If combined with BL+corruptor I just must see how many of them to know what exactly you need
Say basic Roach/Hydra army (more focused on Hydras), 4-5 Vipers and 5-6 Broodlords, you don't need that many corruptors, because Hydras protect Broodlords so well. I see no way how to deal with this.
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On December 14 2012 21:16 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 21:13 Dvriel wrote:On December 14 2012 21:02 Everlong wrote:On December 14 2012 20:59 Dvriel wrote:On December 14 2012 20:56 Everlong wrote:
Well you are right, the clear answer is certainly finish him off before he is able to add Broodlords to his Hydra/Roach/Vipers.. That is managable I think. I was just wondering what to do if the game goes out of control and the map is splitted with both players having access to anything they want. That happens a lot now with mech. No,I am not saying to finish him before he gets this.If you harass while he is moving with this will make him spread army and will be easier for you to deal with it.Less hydras or roaches will help a lot.The only thing to deal with Vipers are Vikings or Thors.Stop making tanks and go full Thors and Vikings + BFHellbats. Hmm, so basically the same way how you deal with TvZ mech in WoL if you fail to hit 2/2 3base timing with mech and he gets Broodlords out.. I can see this working, but I'm interested in direct engagement and how could I possibly match this composition effectively. I mean, Roach/Hydra/Viper is damn fast.. I have faced lot of T with this Combo and have never lost yet xD Tanks are screwed with the cloud and roach/hydra is too high DPS.If combined with BL+corruptor I just must see how many of them to know what exactly you need Say basic Roach/Hydra army (more focused on Hydras), 4-5 Vipers and 5-6 Broodlords, you don't need that many corruptors, because Hydras protect Broodlords so well. I see no way how to deal with this.
Then it all comes to how many Vikings and tanks you got.If Vipers throw cloud,you must be able to kill them with vikings and continue shooting to BL.The problem is that tanks are gone and Thors too.BFH should try go out of cloud and Thors too.THIS or good EMPs on Vipers.Dont see other way
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On December 14 2012 20:54 Everlong wrote:
I'm goint to try Ravens today, as PDD could buy enough time for blind to dissapear and then you are left with Thor/Tank vs Hydra/Roach which is perfectly ok. I don't think I'll have enough energy to buy time with PDD and snipe Vipers with Seeker Missile tho.
Pdd doesn't cut it vs hydras as they shoot way to fast.
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On December 14 2012 21:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 20:54 Everlong wrote:
I'm goint to try Ravens today, as PDD could buy enough time for blind to dissapear and then you are left with Thor/Tank vs Hydra/Roach which is perfectly ok. I don't think I'll have enough energy to buy time with PDD and snipe Vipers with Seeker Missile tho. Pdd doesn't cut it vs hydras as they shoot way to fast.
I know, but in my experience, there is like 3-4 seconds window, where if my tanks could shoot, I would just demolish any size of Roach/Hydra army just like that.. Say I have 4-5 Ravens with 5-6 PDDs.. What I want to know is, how much time those are able to buy me. I hope it's at least 3-4 seconds..
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Each PDD will block 20 shots. If he has 20 Hydralisks then a single PDD will buy you 0.83 seconds of taking zero damage. Five PDDs will thus buy you 4.15 seconds of taking zero damage from his hydralisks. PDD does not work on Roaches.
In my opinion PDD should block more shots over its lifetime, but have a finite rate of fire. Say, 1 energy per shot to fire, but can only block 5 shots per second. The rest get through. If you want to block more shots at once, lay down more PDDs. They also should count as structures for purposes of feedback, to force Protoss to feedback the Raven before casting the ability, rather than just feedbacking the drone (which actually benefits from structure armor and range, but can still be feedbacked...). Additionally, it would be nice if PDD blocked widow mine projectiles.
Against Zerg, hellbats are absolutely beastly, as their HP per supply and their splash damage make them absolutely fantastic combatants heads up, better than any other terran unit. Even against banelings, it takes 4 banelings to kill a hellbat, and they are much, much larger than marines which minimizes the impact of baneling splash. Marine hellbat pushes are extremely difficult for zerg to stop, and continuous aggression with bio and hellbats forcing constant unit production will jam up the zerg's economy and make it extremely difficult for them to make drones or tech without just dying. Add medivacs for multiple drops, and heal on all your units, and the zerg player will actually faceplant their keyboard at how imba Caduceus MediBats are.
Against Protoss, Ravens are actually extremely versatile against almost anything the protoss player makes, but are not really being explored. As terran I would still really rather not go late game against toss, but when it comes to that I make Ravens. PDD is effective against Tempests, and the new Seeker Missile counters anything huge, including Colossi, Tempests, and Carriers. You just need enough Ravens for long enough that you can reliably have a few missiles available at any given time, which is an expensive proposition.
TvT is reaper opening central these days, which is fun for a while, but rather formulaic. It is then basically the same as WoL after that.
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I agree, I'm going to try tankless TvP and TvZ with Hellbats/Thors with some kind of support, likely Ghosts/Ravens/Medivacs/Vikings according to what I face in both matchups. I feel like Tank play is erased from Hots basically.. There is so much air and tech switches, Blinding Cloud and Immortal, etc.. I don't think it's worth the gas.
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I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes?
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Is it viable to get one reaper in TvZ match up to kill overlords in the boxes above expos, attack paths, ramps, etc...?
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Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas.
I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't.
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On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas.
I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't.
I've had great success with the following opening, which consists of 20 or so marines with 7-8 upgraded medivacs.
1 rax reaper (take guys off gas once you have enough for reaper). harass with the reaper and deviate as necessary if you scout an allin coming.
depot
CC
Rax
Rax
(pump marines constantly)
put guys back on gas, get 2nd gas
stim
factory
when factory finishes: make 2 starports, start tech lab on factory
when tech lab is done, lift and start a reactor
get 3rd and 4th gas
combat shield
swap starports to tech lab and reactor addons when the addons/starports
start moving out when you have 3-4 medivacs. Rally your rax and starports to the zerg, boost the medivacs as they come up so they meet up with your army at the zerg's base. Now you have 6-7 medivacs with like 20ish marines with combat shield and stim.
This is a really nasty timing for zerg to deal with. The only thing that really deals with it properly in my experience is ling/bling/muta. Anything else dies with good micro. If he does deal with it, it's easy to transition out.
When I do this build I usually sneak in a 3rd CC before I put down the starports, and double ebay upgrades started as I move out.
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2 things
First off, what do you do vs ultra late game? They are so good now with the buff in combination with viper and crack ling. All of your important units get pulled into the ball and all of your bio gets locked up with blinding cloud. Very scary o.0
Secondly, when are you getting cadacus reactor? Ive been trying to get like 2-4 medivacs out then I swap add-ons to get the upgrade then swap back. Cant really tell which way is better. Anybody have a good idea?
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On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas.
I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't.
Not sure about timing attacks, but one good early pressure build ive been using is a 5 rine/widow mine poke. with good micro you can force a boat load of lings.
What you want to do is burrow outside of creep and then try and bait a squad of lings into the mine. If you can kill the first group it really hurts the Z cuz they are forced to even build more units then they already wanted to. If you go traditional 10 depot 12 rax 13 refinery, the attack hits safely before speed, unless the Z does a fast gas and pool(but you will easy scout this and know to back off.
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Should I even be using hellbats with bio? It feels like every time I have to stim and kite back, I'm just sacrificing them to whatever the hell I'm running away from.
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On December 18 2012 19:55 aksfjh wrote:
Should I even be using hellbats with bio? It feels like every time I have to stim and kite back, I'm just sacrificing them to whatever the hell I'm running away from.
Use Widow Mines, they are the new Tanks. At least TvZ.
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On December 15 2012 08:58 Sent. wrote:
I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes?
All the games where Zerg mass swarm host to push me i mass up siege tanks + battle hellions and then push him back slowly, each time i kill the locust i unsiege 1/3 of my tanks and push them closer. I also keep scanning his swarm hosts and when i get in range i simply kill them or force him to burrow and retreat.
Just don't get to greedy, those locusts in mass numbers can deal out a lot of damage so if they catch to many tanks unsieged it's really bad.
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On December 15 2012 08:58 Sent. wrote:
I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes?
The best response I've seen so far is using widow mines. Simply have like 6-7 of them waiting and as soon as there is this timing window between spawning locusts, go and burrow them right in front of them. If he doesn't reposition them, you just won the game. If he repositions them, repeat the process. Widow mines are also great for Mutas, so you have 2 options covered by going widow mines.
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On December 14 2012 01:21 Everlong wrote:
Any ideas how to play vs Broodlord/Corruptor + Viper/Hydra with mech? Everything is blinded, all air is wrecked by hydras/corruptors, spreading tanks does nothing as they pick off them one by one..
Try baiting corruptors into 8+ widow mines with vikings...then once corruptors are gone kill the brolords with remaining vikings and thor/hellion can finish off their hydra army 
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So how the hell are we supposed to trade cost effectively against new fungals and ultras?
Its like playing WoL again except the ultra does full damage to my marines. I've yet to win a game were zerg got to hive tech.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 18 2012 20:52 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 08:58 Sent. wrote:
I tried playing mech vs Zerg on antiga and I got crushed by swarm host contain. He started lair on 2 base and didn't really saturate his 3rd. Then he made like 6-8 swarm hosts and pushed at my natural. How do I respond to these kind of pushes? The best response I've seen so far is using widow mines. Simply have like 6-7 of them waiting and as soon as there is this timing window between spawning locusts, go and burrow them right in front of them. If he doesn't reposition them, you just won the game. If he repositions them, repeat the process. Widow mines are also great for Mutas, so you have 2 options covered by going widow mines.
That's interesting, I've had almost the opposite experience. Widow Mines aren't very good against Swarm Hosts. In fact, I'd rather have Battle Hellions. There shouldn't be a timing window inbetween Locust lives unless you take them all out before their timer is up. What I have found important with the Swarm Host threat is that as a Mech player, with Widow Mines, you shouldn't be making the standard 4 Thors you would make in WoL. In fact, you can get by with making just 0-1 Thors (0 if you are really confident with your Turret placement, SCV repair reaction, and general ability to respond to Muta threat quickly with everything). This allows you to get Tanks out faster and be prepared for Swarm Hosts. If you are making the 4 Thors like in WoL, you will always lose to this push.
That said, I do agree that if you can get Widow Mines on top of the Swarm Hosts by taking the Locusts out quickly or by flanking the Hosts, that is pretty much GG. Though they don't 1 shot them anymore!
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if zerg is going swarmhosts and your going thor/hellbat mech, you will have a hard time and they will be getting a way better economy then you and eventually crush you with hive tech. You need tanks vs mass swarm host with roach/hydra/infestor support. Thor/hellbat really only works against bad zergs(mid master on below), when i face the top zergs on hots ladder they can crush it pretty easily unless you get lucky with a mid game timing. Need that tank splash!!! And tanks go with mines WAYY better as well, rather then thor/hellbat.
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Has anyone had any luck with Hellbat / bio in TvP? I feel like this composition would deal with zealot high templar really well because of the tankiness of hellbats but I'm not sure how to open properly to obtain that composition with ease.
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On December 20 2012 19:05 BlackPanther wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with Hellbat / bio in TvP? I feel like this composition would deal with zealot high templar really well because of the tankiness of hellbats but I'm not sure how to open properly to obtain that composition with ease.
It's quite effective, especially with caduceus reactor upgrades. The problem with that comp though, is the all-in nature of helbats. Because helbats cannot stim and their already slow movement speed makes oracles's slow even more effective, helbats often absorb full storm damage as they're near unmicroable under those conditions. With this in mind once you engage, you have to go in or lose all your helbats if you retreat and kiting is not really an option since helbats are .80 slower than mm. In addition, archons go extremely well against a helbat composition as they do bonus damage AND receive the base damage, which is not a lot (hellions attacking hatcheries and buildings).
As such, instead of diverting 2 supply to a unit that while great versus zealots, the lack of microability means the supply can be replaced with more valuable units such as more marauders or ghosts. In most cases however, helbats give terran more staying power against an archon/zealot composition, but it's not as good with storms and oracles in play. With those two, your army typically needs to be alot more mobile (MMMG) for both kiting and splitting reasons which are crucial in a TvP bio engagement or it will all melt in a WoL fashion.
For the build, i typically follow a normal PvT timing, which is: 3 rax marine heavy after raxless CC into 11 min medivacs. I only start pumping helbats after the 12 or 13th minute into the game, because that's when you start looking for 2 2 and require an armory. This build is good for several reasons. 3 Rax with marine focus helps deal against fast oracle aggression. If they open stargate, u'd be able to deal with it easily and not worry about gateway only timings, which means less bunkers and more structure/unit production. The late game mix should be around 8 helbats with a mix of mmg with good upgrades. Because of the relatively long tech route to obtain the caduceus reactor, i don't really incorporate the them in a 15-16 min push, nor do i get blue flame upgrades. I try to end the game at this particular 200/200 attack because if any later, protoss would have ammassed too much AoE, and if coupled with oracle's slow, i usually lose everything within a short amount of time because i don't have the micro to emp, everything, split affected units from both storm and slow, target fire vikings while keeping them safe and stutter stepping.
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On December 20 2012 12:53 Bagi wrote:
So how the hell are we supposed to trade cost effectively against new fungals and ultras?
Its like playing WoL again except the ultra does full damage to my marines. I've yet to win a game were zerg got to hive tech.
Your best bet is the second you see ultras is as folllows
Fall back to PFs
Start dropping like mad, Ultras weakness is mobility thiss will buy time
Throw 3 tech lab factory's and start massing thors
Throw down 3 starports and start making banshee.
Less tank>>>Thor Bio Banshee hellbat. Cadaceus reactor is an absolute must. (add BC if you have the funds)
When you engage ultra, you have to focus fire them down, spread fire will be GG. They are very easy to focus down and they are so big that your whole ball can focus them one at a time.
Even when you do all of this, your still going to lose a good amount of games. Ultras require a massive amount of tech switch. Even more than in WoL, so if they do a tech switch your even more behind.
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On December 16 2012 20:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Has anybody had any luck with pressure builds against zerg? I'm trying to test out 9 or 10 minute attacks with hellbats + bio, but I can hardly find any zergs to play against. The ones I do find either don't know how to play starcraft, or think they can hold a 2 base attack after taking a third by spamming lings while banking gas for mutas.
I don't want to play triple-orbital builds. I know they're even better than before due to mines, but if I can't be aggressive in this matchup, then HotS is fucked. I couldn't read anything new or insightful from those games, anyhow. All zergs are insanely hell-bent on building roach/hydra, regardless of whether or not you're meching, and will never touch infestors or broods, so they frequently lose when they shouldn't.
Polt's marauder/hellion push off 2-base still works. 1Rax FE, 2 Gas, Reactor Hellion, Stim, 2 Addition Rax (Tech/Reactor), and Starport on Reactor after 4-6 hellions.The medivac boost really helps the harrass capability of the 2-base pushes since that's usually right before mutas or infestors.
Alternatively, if you go for 3CC, you can produce widow mines instead (2 hellions for map control), which are helpful for a 1/1 push right around lair timing. If you don't overcommit you can still hit the 2/2 timing as well.
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Anybody else having a very easy time vs Toss now?
I feel very powerful, the new medivacs can keep a toss on 2 base for a very long time. And now in the late game with regular MMM+Viking+Ghost and the new cadaceus reactor. My army just rolls so hard. Its kind of weird destroying P so hard.
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Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE.
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Can i please have a breakdown of the current meta game army combos for each matchup?
TvT - Mass reaper into standard marine/tank/medivac? Or New in HOTS?
TvZ - Mass reaper into battlehellion/marine/medivac
TvP - ???
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On December 25 2012 08:53 CapTanObviOs wrote:
Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE.
U need viking(s) to deny msc vision, because when u can force him to blink out you should have viking out if not earlier. Then keep it out of ledge range and macro up.
Still so hard though. I have been crushed many times by msc blink rush also.
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I'm currently 15-1 in HOTS without using a single new unit, upgrade or ability. I think if you just play as if you are playing WoL its ok.
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On December 25 2012 08:53 CapTanObviOs wrote:
Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE.
http://www.twitch.tv/sdgrl/b/350635544
game starts at 9:20-9:30
i'm terrible, but its ez, just like in WOL. just requires some game sense/good decision
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ive done some math, with the new caduceus reactors
if you drop 8 marines in a mineral line and lings funnel into defend it (only attacking 1 marine at a time)
with equal upgrades, adrenal glands res. and unlimited medivac energy (not that this would matter), it will take a full 10 seconds to kill this marine. at the old rate of medivac healing, it would have taken only 5.5-6 seconds
8 marines behind a mineral line will do 840 damage (zerg has +3 armor) over the course of those 10 seconds which is enough DPS to kill 24 3/3 adrenal gland zerglings or about 1 and a third of an ultralisk
this is blizzard poking us to split up our units and attack everywhere, now that we have the tools to do it (despite fusion core req....)
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The healing rate upgrade does not encourage forces to be split more than it encourages forces to be consolidated. Medivacs floating above a large army are powerful units, and they get better at this job with the upgrade to the same extent they are better in small engagements.
The kind of effect which encourages splitting forces up is a very powerful non-stackable effect. A non-stackable, limited-radius area of effect defensive bonus, for example. A local force multiplier. Something that makes a small army very powerful, and able to fight against a much larger enemy force. The trick is to make a force multiplier that does not multiply a larger army's power as efficiently.
Given a local force multiplier, the user wants to have small engagements. If both sides have them, both sides want smaller battles, but with slightly larger armies, or slightly better force multipliers present in those small battles.
Given a tool like this, the total combat power of your army greatly increases if split into pieces, so you definitely should split your army up as opposed to using it all in one place inefficiently. And your opponent will obviously know this is optimal for you, and if they attempt to fight you with a single consolidated deathball, they will lose. They know this, so they split their forces up as well.
Anyway, my point is that caduceus reactor is a powerful upgrade for late-game bio that is mandatory if you intend to go infantry in the late game. Now the fusion core requirement seems to me like a nod to use battlecruisers- and this may be especially relevant in TvP, except that Tempests now murder BCs. So Ravens are mandatory to keep the Tempests off your BCs. But this is another flavor of deathball- drops are not going to cut the mustard unless your opponent fails to deal with them, and caduceus really has no impact on this.
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On December 26 2012 10:22 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:53 CapTanObviOs wrote:
Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE. http://www.twitch.tv/sdgrl/b/350635544game starts at 9:20-9:30 i'm terrible, but its ez, just like in WOL. just requires some game sense/good decision
It is easy depending on the strat you were going for. For sure dont do the previously adviced rushing to vikings, before you got enough vikings to kill the MsC before they can blink up you already got a major problem.
If you are going MMM like you were it indeed shouldnt be a problem to hold off, more marauders means it is easier. If you wanted to go mech you are pretty much screwed.
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On December 26 2012 19:21 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:22 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 25 2012 08:53 CapTanObviOs wrote:
Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE. http://www.twitch.tv/sdgrl/b/350635544game starts at 9:20-9:30 i'm terrible, but its ez, just like in WOL. just requires some game sense/good decision It is easy depending on the strat you were going for. For sure dont do the previously adviced rushing to vikings, before you got enough vikings to kill the MsC before they can blink up you already got a major problem. If you are going MMM like you were it indeed shouldnt be a problem to hold off, more marauders means it is easier. If you wanted to go mech you are pretty much screwed.
I feel like with mech your best bet is to make widow mines across the perimeter, make sure they are positioned in a way so that he can't kill them from the low ground, but when he blinks up they are in range to hit him. And make tanks... make sure you pull a ton of scvs to repair the tank once it is out, and also to surround the stalkers so they can't all be shooting at the tank at the same time
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Oh I thought you guys wanted a vod of someone holding it
In all seriousness, it's probably not possible to hold a good execution of this if factory opening and not like, haard blind countered. I would use 111, tech lab On rax for conc, reactor on fact for hellions and medis/vikings. With the new detection ability for the mothership core, banshee are not reliable
Hope this helps, if I play a game that goes this way I wI'll post.
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On December 26 2012 21:12 Assaulter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 19:21 Sissors wrote:On December 26 2012 10:22 c0sm0naut wrote:On December 25 2012 08:53 CapTanObviOs wrote:
Does anyone know how to hold off the blink mothership core allin? I cant seem to hold it at all no matter what I try with 1 rax expand. I've tried building bunkers in the main and going 3 rax marauder after 1 rax FE. http://www.twitch.tv/sdgrl/b/350635544game starts at 9:20-9:30 i'm terrible, but its ez, just like in WOL. just requires some game sense/good decision It is easy depending on the strat you were going for. For sure dont do the previously adviced rushing to vikings, before you got enough vikings to kill the MsC before they can blink up you already got a major problem. If you are going MMM like you were it indeed shouldnt be a problem to hold off, more marauders means it is easier. If you wanted to go mech you are pretty much screwed. I feel like with mech your best bet is to make widow mines across the perimeter, make sure they are positioned in a way so that he can't kill them from the low ground, but when he blinks up they are in range to hit him. And make tanks... make sure you pull a ton of scvs to repair the tank once it is out, and also to surround the stalkers so they can't all be shooting at the tank at the same time
You don't really have time for tanks against a strategy like this because they will be poking with the first few stalkers when Msc pops, the key is IMO: medics, concussive shells, hellions or marines and some repair scvs
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Hey Terrans. I mostly played Protoss in my WoL career ( Mid-Diamond/High Plat ) and after trying it out in HotS, while very powerful, I dont find it fun. I played some unraked matches as Terran and loved it, so I am looking for some help transitioning in to Terran.
I am mostly looking for mech oriented openings, and 2 to 3 bases timing attacks. Could you guys upload some replays so I can study and practice?
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As a Masters Terran WoL and HotS i've been constantly beating early MSC agression as well as blink stalker.
My build? A variation of Dragons (GM Player) TvP build. Its 1-1-1 and goes as follows:
Note: Constant unit production when you are not building an addon is mandatory.
Rax > 1 gass
Factory > constant widow mine production
2 marines > reactor on rax > constant marine production
Starport when you have the gass > constant medivac production
@ 400 minerals > Expo
@ 300 minerals > 2 Rax
@ 150 minerals > Engin bay
- Move out with 4-6 marines + widow mine. Rally everything to his ramp. -
Now you will have little engagements all the time, the power comes from your micro. As soon as the medivac comes out you boost it to the rally point. Drop his main mineral line with 2-4 marines + a widow mine. while keeping pressure at the front.
You go into full bio with an advantage because of early pressure and a full scout.
It is important to react. If you see a lot of stalkers , you get 2 tech labs on your new rax and pump marauders.
If you see stargate, get yourself a widow mine in your mineral line. Etc, use common sense, GM players use this build to defeat GM Protoss, the power comes from your own ability to micro your units correctly and react to your scout.
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What build do you guys use in TVT ?
I usually go CC first but these faggot reapers give me an hard time now.
Also i am the only one to think that TVT have became even more coinflip than PVP ? I mean it was already shitty to play but now...
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tvt nowadays is weird, there are stable build orders but none revolves around 14cc, if u go reaper vs reaper it gets kinda hilarious in a bad way <:
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Hi. I'm master in WOL playing mech every matchup.
What I think about HOTS :
TVP : mine can be used in early game to prevent all ins. mid and end game mine is useless. I go 1 rax CC 2 gas facto and reactor on rax with 2 rines in bunker in front of my natural before reactor on rax. Tank siege. Depending on what I scout I go 3rd CC and 3 facto 1 starport midgame with thor helion banshee ghost. Scan @ 170 to add 2nd starport if colossus/tempest.
In WOL i use to kill protoss with such a push but i sometimes use battlecruiser. In hots toss adds tempest so you can't use BC in TVP. Battlehelion is better than normal helion.
units used: helion thor banshee viking ghost.
TvT : I go fast marauder exp to prevent predictable reaper. Otherwise same play than in WOL.
units used: marauder (only to prevent reaper) tank viking helion banshee thor BC
TvZ : I go rax CC 2gaz factory helion banshee as in WOL trying to deny zerg's 3rd. After full upgraded thor and some vikings to kill viper. Push before hive. Once again, same play as in WOL. TvZ seems more unbalanced than in WOL cause if you go bio zerg will kill you with op fungal/glings/banelings/ultra and if you go mech zerg will kill you with viper roach/hydra. GL for TVZ in HOTS.
units used : helion thor banshee viking.
Fortunately HOTS beta is free. I don't plan to buy it because it's the same play than in WOL. "New" terran units are not good enough to be usefull in early/mid/endgame. Compositions are the same than in WOL, you have to deal with tempest and viper in lategame.
Too much terrans units are useless :
reaper : only in tvt, queens and stalker outrange it.
tank : sucks against pretty much everything in P (speed zeal, blink stalk, immortal, colossus, phenix, archon...) and does too much splash damage to your own units. I don't use it in TVZ cause i never got disappointed with upgraded thor.
BC : vs zerg = neural parasite, vs protoss = tempest/feedback
widow mine : okay in early vs protoss, useless vs zerg as helion controls map better and banshee more efficient to kill roach all in.
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On December 28 2012 07:03 LloydPGM wrote:
TVP : In hots toss adds tempest so you can't use BC in TVP.
Did you know that PDD stops tempest missle? I've used it with a nice succes rate.
On December 28 2012 07:03 LloydPGM wrote:
TvZ :TvZ seems more unbalanced than in WOL cause if you go bio zerg will kill you with op fungal/glings/banelings/ultra .
I find that bio works a lot better because of the fungel change. A ton of fungels now miss or just hit a small part.
Not to disprove anything but you can play with the new units and changes. I really like Terran in HotS. Way more than in WoL.
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Trying to mech in tvp is tough, but i think the best way of doing it is through early aggression and then meching behind this.
I will have to get a replay, but what i have been doing is a 2,1 opening that puts pressure on and then teching behind it into whatever you want.
So I think it's:
10depot
12rax
13gas
16rax( as soon as 100gas comes out)
17fact
18 techlab on 1st rax.
22reactor on fact
26 reactor on second rax.
And then as soon as 4 Wm's come out just push out, if you have done this right you should have about 10marines at about 40supply and then just with good control you can deny alot with this.
The WM's make the toss really hesitant to move anywhere because of the splash off of 4 wm's and so you can deny a natural or if he tries to snipe with mothership core the marines pick it off to fast for him to do so if you control well.
And then behind this tech/mech into whatever you want. generally i just take an extra cc and double armory and go into full mech.
My natural is late but that isn't an issue as we have denied/are denying his, so economically we aren't losing out.
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Ok bronze terran here. I am going pure mech in all match ups and I just lose. I lose and lose because my opponent exploits my immobility and how I can't move out until I have a big army, so I'm outexpanded and getting dropped left and right.
How do I win? Other than switching to zerg.
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Scouting is important when playing mech. You must control xel naga towers as much as possible. Sensor turrets can help you to anticipate opponent's move.
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On December 29 2012 02:04 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
Ok bronze terran here. I am going pure mech in all match ups and I just lose. I lose and lose because my opponent exploits my immobility and how I can't move out until I have a big army, so I'm outexpanded and getting dropped left and right.
How do I win? Other than switching to zerg.
try something more robust than mech if you're bronze. positioning wise I'm sure you won't be able to nail it right. do the standard marine tank (+ hellbats if you're against zealots or lings) and mix in better composition other than mech.
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how are your experience with
thor and new canon mode +hellbad vs brood lords
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On December 29 2012 02:04 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
Ok bronze terran here. I am going pure mech in all match ups and I just lose. I lose and lose because my opponent exploits my immobility and how I can't move out until I have a big army, so I'm outexpanded and getting dropped left and right.
How do I win? Other than switching to zerg.
if you are bronze, better don't complain about balance because at your level, you are making way too many mistakes to know anything about balance.
bronze is essentially about who makes less mistakes rather than who makes the right decisions
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On December 30 2012 09:47 perser84 wrote:
how are your experience with
thor and new canon mode +hellbad vs brood lords
Zerg player here. I recently played a game where my opponent went thor heavy mech. It was one of those typical situations where I'm trying to stall for broodlords and I know that as soon as I get 5 or so out i can shut down his push because there are no vikings. Didn't happen. The new thor attack killed my broodlords quite fast and I lost the battle. I wouldn't say it hard countered my brood lords but it traded quite nicely.
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high master random WOL here
Just started playing terran and it is hard as hell. Is it just me or is protoss insanely overpowered and tvt is an enigma of all-ins??? I feel like a complete newb in HOTS and I hate it. Is it even worth playing the beta?
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I wouldnt say insanely overpowered, but they have a shitload of all-ins now that are pretty much unscoutable (since it is pretty much impossible to get a scout into toss base, even reapers get shut down easily).
So my question would immediatly be: what opening do people use against toss? One that survives oracles, DTs, 4 gate, blink all-ins, the MsC poke obviously, 3-gate robo all-in, etc, without being way behind when he has an expansion. And I am all for scouting if that helps, but then the question would be how do people scout the toss early in the game after stalkers are out? You can scan, but that is pretty much rolling the dice. And if you made too many units and he just FE'd there is no way to punish him due to photon overcharge.
Back to your question, yes TvT is imo pretty much ruined in HotS. I am generally in favour of agression before 3 bases, but tvt is simply the new pvp. The only matchup that is still good is imo TvZ. Maybe balance wise not yet perfect, but at least not an all-in fest. So yes imo TvT and TvP are way better fun/spectator-wise in WoL than in HotS.
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After trying out a ton of build in TvP I honestly think 1 rax fe is the only viable build right now, any gas opening just gets owned by oracles. Even making a single reaper will leave you in a horrible situation vs a fast oracle.
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I really dont like how they shifted the matchups. Especially TvP. In which matchup where if Terran defends without harassing its opponent it would be behind in almost all situations. How do you expect terran to harass or put on pressure while one can get allined on every corner.
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On December 30 2012 20:43 GDI wrote:
high master random WOL here
Just started playing terran and it is hard as hell. Is it just me or is protoss insanely overpowered and tvt is an enigma of all-ins??? I feel like a complete newb in HOTS and I hate it. Is it even worth playing the beta?
the new changes have broken the laws of TvT and it's beauty
it has lead to unexcuseable amounts of faggotry and gimmickry
making cc first even more of a coinflip than it was already (against proxy raxes or proxy marauders) because now they dont have to proxy you to get a build order win
TvT used to be so beautiful
T.T
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Reapers didn't break tvt at all its still a fantastic matchup and i'm absolutely loving using reapers in tvz. All this reaper whine is gonna achieve is getting the reapers nerfed into obscurity again.
You still have plenty of viable openings only diffirence to before is more of them include reapers and less of them include marines. Banshees, tanks, hellions all of that is still perfectly viable just in diffirent ways than wol, adapt!
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On December 31 2012 03:50 VonComet wrote:
Reapers didn't break tvt at all its still a fantastic matchup and i'm absolutely loving using reapers in tvz. All this reaper whine is gonna achieve is getting the reapers nerfed into obscurity again.
You still have plenty of viable openings only diffirence to before is more of them include reapers and less of them include marines. Banshees, tanks, hellions all of that is still perfectly viable just in diffirent ways than wol, adapt!
Come on, reaper is perfectly useless in TvZ exactly like in WOL as queen outranges it. Pretty much the same in TvP as stalker/MSC arrives faster than reaper. I play a lot of TvT and my opponent ALWAYS builds at least 1 reaper, if you're not prepared for it you die, so you can't really go gasless fast exp. The only way i found to not start with reaper is going... rax gas tech lab marauder...
Anyway, I remember DK saying that any unit unused in at least 2 matchup may not have a place in the game... Reaper is perfectly useless vs P and Z, so as Battlecruiser.
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On December 30 2012 20:43 GDI wrote:
high master random WOL here
Just started playing terran and it is hard as hell. Is it just me or is protoss insanely overpowered and tvt is an enigma of all-ins??? I feel like a complete newb in HOTS and I hate it. Is it even worth playing the beta?
Yes TvT is all about who has the better all in, and protoss is op lol
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On December 31 2012 04:09 LloydPGM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 03:50 VonComet wrote:
Reapers didn't break tvt at all its still a fantastic matchup and i'm absolutely loving using reapers in tvz. All this reaper whine is gonna achieve is getting the reapers nerfed into obscurity again.
You still have plenty of viable openings only diffirence to before is more of them include reapers and less of them include marines. Banshees, tanks, hellions all of that is still perfectly viable just in diffirent ways than wol, adapt! Come on, reaper is perfectly useless in TvZ exactly like in WOL as queen outranges it. Pretty much the same in TvP as stalker/MSC arrives faster than reaper. I play a lot of TvT and my opponent ALWAYS builds at least 1 reaper, if you're not prepared for it you die, so you can really go gasless fast exp. The only way i found to not start with reaper is going... rax gas tech lab marauder... Anyway, I remember DK saying that any unit unused in at least 2 matchup may not have a place in the game... Reaper is perfectly useless vs P and Z, so as Battlecruiser.
They should have made them more than a gimmicky early game unit (in WoL I already use it sometimes in TvT and TvP vs forge FEs), and what they changed was making it a required early game unit in TvT while not making it any better in late game (even worse).
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http://drop.sc/289767
Ok, seriously, what did I do wrong? he fails his all in horribly doing absolutely no damage other than a bit of lost mining time. He's down in workers. He loses his third and is down in bases. Upgrades are even. I just don't understand at all what I was supposed to have done differently.
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United States4991 Posts
On January 01 2013 16:05 Lazerlike42 wrote:http://drop.sc/289767Ok, seriously, what did I do wrong? he fails his all in horribly doing absolutely no damage other than a bit of lost mining time. He's down in workers. He loses his third and is down in bases. Upgrades are even. I just don't understand at all what I was supposed to have done differently.
General observation: I'd say you should get 2 geysers rather than 1 in your opening, as you don't have enough gas to both use your ebay and the tech lab, and the slight excess of minerals doesn't really help you with anything at that point.
In the specific battle at 15 minutes in his 3rd where you (basically) lost the game, you should've fought further back from the ramp by a bit in order to get an advantage from the ramp. As it was, the location where you fought allowed him to forcefield you from the low ground and have all his ranged units (stalkers/sentries mostly) shooting you. If you had backed up a bit, his ranged units would've had to crowd onto the ramp to get to you. Basically you can't win engagements when you don't have an upgrade advantage and then get forcefielded such that all his units can hit yours straight up (especially the zealots), which is what happened to you here. After taking such heavy losses there, there wasn't much you could do to hold the game.
Being trapped is generally bad though for that sort of army, as you rely upon hit & run & hit & run to win the fights.
Generally speaking you should also be focusing a lot more heavily on upgrades, but that said he also didn't upgrade enough so that wasn't the cause of the loss.
HOTS-specific and it's relatively new, but in my experience you should be getting caduceus relatively early, like around when you're taking your 3rd. It wouldn't have kicked in by that battle I suppose, but it makes a tremendous difference and you should at least be working towards it. Pretty much every game I've played TvP that goes long, Protoss whines about how OP Caduceus is! Basically with Caduceus your units do not die, except by storm or colossus
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What is the best way to handle 2 base Colossus production? When the Protoss starts Colossus before starting his third, it puts me in a position where I need to essentially start Viking production before having any medivacs out with a standard gasless FE build.
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I posted this in the mech tvp thread but I'll post it here too. What the hell is someone supposed to do mech vs tempests? It seems like theres no answer to a fleet of tempests with a gateway army underneath. Trying to get vikings in close just gets them stormed (as the tempests can see the vikings come in significantly before I can react to the possibility of storms) and not doing anything destroys my tank line until the gate way army can just a move in anyway. It seems like there's no catching tempests "out of position" because their insane range chips away at units who would be coming in to catch them out of position.
I understand that mass marine would do the trick but with no upgrades and no rax production makes that significantly more difficult
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United States4991 Posts
On January 02 2013 11:21 Lazerlike42 wrote:
What is the best way to handle 2 base Colossus production? When the Protoss starts Colossus before starting his third, it puts me in a position where I need to essentially start Viking production before having any medivacs out with a standard gasless FE build.
I haven't had an issue getting out 2 Medivacs before I need to start Viking production against any sort of normal Protoss opening involving 2 base Colossus (usually the first Colossus is coming out around when I'd be reaching his base with my bio + medivacs) - maybe you're starting your Factory late? You can have Medivacs out by like 9 minutes. The only replay I have of you was admittedly after holding an all-in so your build may have been different, but in that one you didn't even start your Starport until 11 minutes in.
You can add a 2nd Starport if you see him going early Colossus, as he won't be able to effectively also get Storm, and having a sufficient number of Vikings will allow you to crush his Colossi without taking any real losses, and your stim / combat shields / medivac infantry will annihilate his Zealot/Stalker/Sentry army after that.
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On January 02 2013 11:43 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 11:21 Lazerlike42 wrote:
What is the best way to handle 2 base Colossus production? When the Protoss starts Colossus before starting his third, it puts me in a position where I need to essentially start Viking production before having any medivacs out with a standard gasless FE build. I haven't had an issue getting out 2 Medivacs before I need to start Viking production against any sort of normal Protoss opening involving 2 base Colossus (usually the first Colossus is coming out around when I'd be reaching his base with my bio + medivacs) - maybe you're starting your Factory late? You can have Medivacs out by like 9 minutes. The only replay I have of you was admittedly after holding an all-in so your build may have been different, but in that one you didn't even start your Starport until 11 minutes in. You can add a 2nd Starport if you see him going early Colossus, as he won't be able to effectively also get Storm, and having a sufficient number of Vikings will allow you to crush his Colossi without taking any real losses, and your stim / combat shields / medivac infantry will annihilate his Zealot/Stalker/Sentry army after that.
I can normally get two out, but having only two medivacs and then having to ignore them to start building up Vikings seems to be an enormous sacrifice that is hard to really ever recover from. Eventually it will be possible to support two starports and mix produce both, but my concern is that you cannot not right away, and your medivac count will always been significantly lower than had you been able to produce more in the first place. In fact, when most of the high level games I've ever seen produce only vikings from those two Starports once they get them for Colossus.
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Come on, reaper is perfectly useless in TvZ exactly like in WOL as queen outranges it. Pretty much the same in TvP as stalker/MSC arrives faster than reaper. I play a lot of TvT and my opponent ALWAYS builds at least 1 reaper, if you're not prepared for it you die, so you can't really go gasless fast exp. The only way i found to not start with reaper is going... rax gas tech lab marauder...
Anyway, I remember DK saying that any unit unused in at least 2 matchup may not have a place in the game... Reaper is perfectly useless vs P and Z, so as Battlecruiser.
diamond terran here. Since i stabilize my BO which is 3 rax mass reaper 1 fac into expand i win 80-85% of my games vs Z and before 20 min due to my reapers. So i would'nt say so fast that reaper is useless vs Zerg. I think u didnt seriously play them because harassing back and forth and regen u can kill queen really easy and when u got upgrade u can harass places where there is no spine. The only deadline is when ur opponent is popping enough roach then u stop ur harass and build marauders. But u deal so much econ dommage as u force early roach/queens/spines and even spore if u pop WM in backup of ur reapers.
You can expand reasonnably even if u going 3 rax because reaper don't cost that much mineral but this strat is very micro intensive and very fun to play.
I still think that at pro level 3 rax reaper is much harder to use because zerg do less mistake i guess. But it's very good as soon as your opponent opened hatch first pool no gas.
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I play mech tvz and get owned by roach hydra viper, what is the best thing to do against that comp? I go tank and widow mine, spread out my tanks, but the zergs just make 10 evos and suck them till the vipers have full energy so they can literally blind every single tank. Should I go mass widow mine?
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On January 02 2013 11:21 Lazerlike42 wrote:
What is the best way to handle 2 base Colossus production? When the Protoss starts Colossus before starting his third, it puts me in a position where I need to essentially start Viking production before having any medivacs out with a standard gasless FE build.
It's no different from WoL. While I'm only Diamond, imo the best answer is to just take your third and keep Medivac production for a while and threaten to doom drop him. He can't move out until he has 2-3 Colossi and a sizeable Gateway army to support that. If he's stubborn and decides to attack you, you can kill low Colossi counts - specially with few upgrades - with decent splitting and focus firing.
So in other words, imo there's no need to immediately pump out Vikings once you see Colossus on 2 bases because engagements won't happen right away.
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Does anyone know a decent TvP opener for HotS?
I used to go Cloakshee Expand but with the MSC/Stalker harass and the MSC having detection it feels far weaker than it was before.
1 Rax FE feels vulnerable to the same harassment/aggression and I prefer to put some light pressure on Protoss around/before 7-8 minutes to see what Protoss has and potentially do some damage if Protoss was playing greedy.
Given the new emphasis for Skytoss I'm guessing the most versatile option would be a Marine heavy opening.
Are there any Marine (or Marine/Ghost?) openings in TvP that could put on some pressure before any significant AoE is out?
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So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
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On January 12 2013 12:48 NKexquisite wrote:
So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
Swarm host are very easy to deal with, with any race, all you have to do with bio is multi task drop....few swarm host=useless and you should have not a hard time rolling them with siege tanks. If they go mass swarm host which makes them some what a threat only in 1 area of the map where they lay, they are not mobile, so as a bio player you can just destroy the zerg with multi tasking drops every where to the point the zerg ecom will be gone, zerg spent his gas into swarmhost, he should not have anything else that would be a threat as he should not be able to afford it.
as mech, you could pretty much crush the zerg swarm host force mid game, With Ravens seeker missle going back to slash dmg in the recent patch, I been pushing out with few ravens, large amount of widowmine/tank/thor and just destroying the zerg with 3/3 mech upgrades.
I'm gm in the beta, only time a zerg will go mass swarm host is for shit's n giggles to troll or try it out for fun, Swarm host are pretty bad units and easy to deal with when you exploit their mobility and the huge amount of gas/resources zerg has to commit to swarm host.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
How are people dealing with TvP now with MSC having Time Warp and Purify and Medivac upgrade being taken away? I find it near impossible to do anything early game and am faced with a similar situation late game since I didn't harass or damage their econ in anyway possible.
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On January 13 2013 19:50 Wunder wrote:
How are people dealing with TvP now with MSC having Time Warp and Purify and Medivac upgrade being taken away? I find it near impossible to do anything early game and am faced with a similar situation late game since I didn't harass or damage their econ in anyway possible.
Mech trades quite well with sufficient helbat/thor/tank numbers with viking support against zealot/archon/immortal balls. AS for bio, i also share the same sentiment (although to be fair, T is my weakest race) that bio is difficult to play against a mothership backed army. On another note, the games i've played with bio have been fairly doable assuming that i've successfully emped the mothership before the fight initiates. From what i've experienced, the dangers of time warp is significant, so try to prioritise on emping the mothership before anything else. Once your army is slowed, stutter stepping will be hard and storms will be exponentially more devastating.
As for army comp, try mixing in helbats for added zealot hard counter. Keep in mind to not over-commit because for all intents and purpose they're there for extra damage vs zealots and are very very micro-unfriendly with a bio army (2.25 speed vs the rest of bio). I suggest building up to 10 (max) with the rest on marauder/ghost/marine. Widow mines can be used in place of helbats, but their inherent problem is their lack of sustained damage in fights, which quickly become dead supply of the protoss decides to pull back after detonation. Medivac drops are better than WoL for obvious reasons, try to capitalise on the boost while the main army is occupied. There won't be purify defense if the msc is with the main army and the P has less time to react against drop with Hts.
With early game, my general strategy is to open with factory and starport after FE. Since tanks are alot more powerful with early siege, it enables a safe 3rd to be planted down quickly. I also use these tanks for fake 1 1 1 or defense. With an eco lead, i typically go for fast bio upgrades with a good number of bunkers depending on what i scanned (obviously more for immortal based play). If you want to pressure with tanks, it's possible but do not overcommit. You should always siege outside purify cannon range and pull back when you see enough immortals. This neat move deters probe production and diverts boost to military units.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Thanks for the reply, I will attempt to work in a few mech games if I can. Good idea about the Hellbat, I just realized with the patch they you don't need to get blue flame for them so I suppose I can make use of my redundant factory. Would you recommend deselecting the hellbats during battle so they just fire, instead of accidentally cancelling their attack animation while you're stutter stepping with the rest of your bio?
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On January 13 2013 20:06 Wunder wrote:
Thanks for the reply, I will attempt to work in a few mech games if I can. Good idea about the Hellbat, I just realized with the patch they you don't need to get blue flame for them so I suppose I can make use of my redundant factory. Would you recommend deselecting the hellbats during battle so they just fire, instead of accidentally cancelling their attack animation while you're stutter stepping with the rest of your bio?
To honest, my apm is around 150 so i have a hard time controlling ghosts,mmm while macroing and sniping sneaky templars. Because of such limitations i typically let the helbats attack on their own and deselect soon as the battle starts. There's one good reason for this as well, the disparity between helbat ms and attack speed means that if you group them the marine/marauders would be dealing less damage than otherwise. However, if you can stutter step everything in multiple control groups and adjust micro based on their attack speed, you should by all means do it maximise output. But yeah, playing Bio is pretty hard in Hots, probably harder than WoL.
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On January 07 2013 23:54 Thezzy wrote:
Does anyone know a decent TvP opener for HotS?
I used to go Cloakshee Expand but with the MSC/Stalker harass and the MSC having detection it feels far weaker than it was before.
1 Rax FE feels vulnerable to the same harassment/aggression and I prefer to put some light pressure on Protoss around/before 7-8 minutes to see what Protoss has and potentially do some damage if Protoss was playing greedy.
Given the new emphasis for Skytoss I'm guessing the most versatile option would be a Marine heavy opening.
Are there any Marine (or Marine/Ghost?) openings in TvP that could put on some pressure before any significant AoE is out?
111 Opening after FE is very good in dealing with all types of threats now. Go for raxless FE and you'll be safe against most types of pressure. Reactor the starport and add a techlab on the factory. Focus on building tanks, vikings and marines until your economy is good enough and build a 3rd cc in your main around 8 min. The instant siege gives T better defense against most types of all in and the older 6 gate all in can be completely shut down. THere are variations to that said opening as well, if you want to take more risks, reactoring factories instead of sport for mines are reallllly good against immortal builds early game map control. Also DO NOT NEGLECT ur eng bay, build it early. You need turrets to defend vs vr/phoenixes/oracles and dts.
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Hi guys
I want to switch from Zerg to Terran for HotS. I'm diamond.
What are some good openers to use in TvX? I'm willing to try mech out, but I'd prefer bio-play. I'm a no-frills kind of player, I either want to all-in with T1 units or play a macro game and crush direct engagements
I have no idea how to play Terran aside from 3raxing in 2v2
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What are Terrans doing to counter greedy Protoss in HotS?
I feel with the MSC and Sentries that aggression off 2rax is a dead build. I can penetrate the natural but then the Toss just lets me take the shields off his Nexus (mainly to buy a few WG cycles) and will Overcharge the Nexus and box me in with Sentries and crush my army. So I trade a bunch of supply for Nexus shields. Knowing this happens it seems the Toss are even more aggressive with neglecting WG cycles to fast tech their upgrades and move straight into Colossus. I'm having issues ><
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how do you push forward with lets say 10 tanks vs 9 swarmhosts? unsiege just a view tanks and take it slow? my problem here is , that the zerg just relocates the swarmhosts and he buys himself so much time, that he can techswitch. master t here.
always when i go mech, they keep me inbase, or away from their base and transition into broodlords. it seems so damn strong to me. Just tell me how you beat it or what your timnings are pls.
I am talking about mechonly play. I wanna give it a try even if i don´t like it
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Hi everyone - I'm looking for up to date (balance patch 12) strong opening build orders (bio and mech) that apply pressure with macro/expos behind them. Any input is appreciated~!
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Question about TvP and Oracles in HOTS:
1 rax fe into 3 rax, starport, +1 2 medivac timing vs gate, core, nexus, stargate, gate, gate (or 1 base oracle: gate, core, starport, gate, gate)
It seems that the starport drops ~5:00, 1st oracle pops ~6:45. The timings could be a bit slower in our games compared to higher levels (I'm dia T and my buddy is low masters P). Normally I would do a scan ~9:00-9:30 to see what tech P is going for. That is way to late to turret mineral lines as a response. Scanning ~6:00 is to early to see which tech path P is going (I think?)
So, what do you do? I don't think blind turreting both mineral lines is the proper way to play. Dropping 2 scans before 10 minutes seems excessive, but is that just something you have to do? Or, is it better to just blind turret since 2 scans costs more than 2 blind turrets?
Do you think 2 blind turrets in the mineral lines is going to be the difference between winning and losing vs (robo/blink/6 or 8 gateway) aggression early? I'm of the opinion that those 2 extra turrets are going to be a game ending decision if you guess wrong. How are you guys scouting and defending against oracles right now? What should I be doing, and how should I be doing it?
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On January 24 2013 12:27 Joedaddy wrote:
Question about TvP and Oracles in HOTS:
1 rax fe into 3 rax, starport, +1 2 medivac timing vs gate, core, nexus, stargate, gate, gate (or 1 base oracle: gate, core, starport, gate, gate)
It seems that the starport drops ~5:00, 1st oracle pops ~6:45. The timings could be a bit slower in our games compared to higher levels (I'm dia T and my buddy is low masters P). Normally I would do a scan ~9:00-9:30 to see what tech P is going for. That is way to late to turret mineral lines as a response. Scanning ~6:00 is to early to see which tech path P is going (I think?)
So, what do you do? I don't think blind turreting both mineral lines is the proper way to play. Dropping 2 scans before 10 minutes seems excessive, but is that just something you have to do? Or, is it better to just blind turret since 2 scans costs more than 2 blind turrets?
Do you think 2 blind turrets in the mineral lines is going to be the difference between winning and losing vs (robo/blink/6 or 8 gateway) aggression early? I'm of the opinion that those 2 extra turrets are going to be a game ending decision if you guess wrong. How are you guys scouting and defending against oracles right now? What should I be doing, and how should I be doing it?
making a read on what toss is doing before 10 minutes isn't easy but it's doable. keeping track of proxy pylons and general ground movement helps to tell you if it's fast air or fast ground aggression. scanning at 6:00 does seem early but 9-9:30 seems way too late. i'd say 7:00-7:30 seems more appropriate. unless you actually see something that tells you either what tech he's going (observer, immortal), that he is going to push you (proxy pylon, lots of sentries, lots of stalkers), or he's playing greedy (3rd nexus) i wouldn't delay you scan for too long.
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Hi my beloved TL People,
i just lost a TvZ against a pretty good Zerg player ( he said he was hight master in WOL/ plat in Hots). I was a Top8 Dia in Wol and Plat. in Hots.
I open kinda greedy with CC first, but due to windowmines you can do this quiet safe in Hots. I was max around 17 min with 2/2 upgrade Bio/hellbat tank army. I won the first fight until his Ultralisk arrived into the fight. He played infestor, Queen, Ultralisk in the late game. The Ullis never die due to transfuse. I tried to swith into Battlecruiser but it did nothing.
I havent played alot against this unitcompositon and i am kinda lost.
I harrased i a little, but never did big damage cause he defended well! What should be the right unitcomposition against that? Raven, Windowmines?
He said i should go ghost, but from my expericance the suck against zerg.
I guess i should have harrased more, but as most of you know, its very hard to drop on alot of places and keep expanding and macroing at the same time .
Here is my replay any tips or advise are welcome.
http://drop.sc/298498
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On January 25 2013 21:36 DerFreemind wrote:Hi my beloved TL People, i just lost a TvZ against a pretty good Zerg player ( he said he was hight master in WOL/ plat in Hots). I was a Top8 Dia in Wol and Plat. in Hots. I open kinda greedy with CC first, but due to windowmines you can do this quiet safe in Hots. I was max around 17 min with 2/2 upgrade Bio/hellbat tank army. I won the first fight until his Ultralisk arrived into the fight. He played infestor, Queen, Ultralisk in the late game. The Ullis never die due to transfuse. I tried to swith into Battlecruiser but it did nothing. I havent played alot against this unitcompositon and i am kinda lost. I harrased i a little, but never did big damage cause he defended well! What should be the right unitcomposition against that? Raven, Windowmines? He said i should go ghost, but from my expericance the suck against zerg. I guess i should have harrased more, but as most of you know, its very hard to drop on alot of places and keep expanding and macroing at the same time . Here is my replay any tips or advise are welcome. http://drop.sc/298498
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units. Combine this with the lack of scouting and you deserve any loss that comes your way up at this point.
- 9:00. Dispite playing greedy, the Zerg is out-macro'ing you. If he felt like it he could've been on 4 base or outright destroy your third with a ling/bling bust. Your minimal covering would not have saved you.
- 10:00 heavy supply block, idle structures, tons of minerals in the bank.
- 12:00 you finally start producing your MM army, that took a long time to set up.
- 13:30 Zerg gave you 10 free muta's because he didn't micro. High masters? He lies. His skill does not even match low masters.
- 14:00 more huge supply blocks incoming, for a very fast natural and third while playing a turtle style. Your fourth is very late.
-From this point on i can continue to write on your macro "fails" but it is clear to me that it would be way to much. On to your decision making. -
- You drop @ 16 minute and pass a lot of overlords. Always clean up overlords if you can.
- He has an observer in plain view for a couple of minutes, you should've taken it out.
- No watch tower control in the early - mid game. At least try to get them.
- You easily have the money but: You do not start 3-3, get tons of orbitals, get a lot of production buildings up or invest in a higher tech.
- Terrible engagement. No prior scouting, no leading the way with a single marine, no scans used for optimal positioning and most important of all: No micro.
- After you've fend him off because this Zerg is terrible as well, you chased him down. Do not do this in TvZ, just kill his economy next time.
- 20:00, you spend a full minute trying to get units in a dropship. Get your micro handled, this should be done way faster.
- 24:00 you threw away your army to kill 1 base. Very bad trade. Only trade this if you are way ahead, 2+ base and tons of production avaible. Never throw away your army for a base because a couter attack will kill you.
- 25:00 Zerg counter attack and kills you, as said above.
- 4-6 BC"s are bad, as you just lost them to queens. BC's are bad against zerg anyway but if you are going BC you must get10+ with energy for yamato cannon to make them work.
Final thoughts:
- Get your macro fixed search a build and execute it. Watch your supply, do not build to many depots at once and do not get supply blocked.
- Train your Micro and train your engagements.
- I want you to state your goal. If you are left alone, with kind of army composition do you push? When do you push? A standard time or do you do an anti-timing? For example, when the zerg takes his third.
- This Zerg is not masters i doubt even diamond league. Zerg probably belongs in platinum WoL.
Have fun with this feedback.
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A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable?
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Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units. Combine this with the lack of scouting and you deserve any loss that comes your way up at this point.
- 9:00. Dispite playing greedy, the Zerg is out-macro'ing you. If he felt like it he could've been on 4 base or outright destroy your third with a ling/bling bust. Your minimal covering would not have saved you.
- 10:00 heavy supply block, idle structures, tons of minerals in the bank.
- 12:00 you finally start producing your MM army, that took a long time to set up.
- 13:30 Zerg gave you 10 free muta's because he didn't micro. High masters? He lies. His skill does not even match low masters.
- 14:00 more huge supply blocks incoming, for a very fast natural and third while playing a turtle style. Your fourth is very late.
-From this point on i can continue to write on your macro "fails" but it is clear to me that it would be way to much. On to your decision making. -
- You drop @ 16 minute and pass a lot of overlords. Always clean up overlords if you can.
- He has an observer in plain view for a couple of minutes, you should've taken it out.
- No watch tower control in the early - mid game. At least try to get them.
- You easily have the money but: You do not start 3-3, get tons of orbitals, get a lot of production buildings up or invest in a higher tech.
- Terrible engagement. No prior scouting, no leading the way with a single marine, no scans used for optimal positioning and most important of all: No micro.
- After you've fend him off because this Zerg is terrible as well, you chased him down. Do not do this in TvZ, just kill his economy next time.
- 20:00, you spend a full minute trying to get units in a dropship. Get your micro handled, this should be done way faster.
- 24:00 you threw away your army to kill 1 base. Very bad trade. Only trade this if you are way ahead, 2+ base and tons of production avaible. Never throw away your army for a base because a couter attack will kill you.
- 25:00 Zerg counter attack and kills you, as said above.
- 4-6 BC"s are bad, as you just lost them to queens. BC's are bad against zerg anyway but if you are going BC you must get10+ with energy for yamato cannon to make them work.
Final thoughts:
- Get your macro fixed search a build and execute it. Watch your supply, do not build to many depots at once and do not get supply blocked.
- Train your Micro and train your engagements.
- I want you to state your goal. If you are left alone, with kind of army composition do you push? When do you push? A standard time or do you do an anti-timing? For example, when the zerg takes his third.
- This Zerg is not masters i doubt even diamond league. Zerg probably belongs in platinum WoL.
Have fun with this feedback.[/QUOTE]
Thx for this! Nothing wrong with hard critic:D! I think my opening is quiet ok. 6 Pool is not really a issue, there are some mirco tricks which you can defend that pretty ok. I very rarely lost with the opening to early attacks. Other than that your are abolutly right! Some very good tips in this! Thx again.
I tried this new playing from replay function out with a friend! Works great!!! We played around a little, i shouldnt have gone into air at all! Raven wouldnt have worked as well...cause it takes to long until HSM shots at the zerg army. But Winow mines seems to be the anwser!
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On January 26 2013 01:55 ILosethenOP wrote:
A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable?
The 11 minute MM push is still viable. I'd say that almost nothing has changed and it hasn't gotten any easier for Toss to hold these pushes off. At least in Masters Hots where i currently play.
I'd say that MM+BHellions would also work, the only thing is that i've never tried doing that without medivacs so experiment and you'll see.
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@Stingart
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units.
Could you provide a replay with good Building Placement? Or can you say some gernerall rules in terms of buildingplacement. Never thought about it!
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On January 26 2013 03:04 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2013 01:55 ILosethenOP wrote:
A few questions:
Is the 10 minute MMM push still viable with the mothership core available to P?
I am interested in changing the MMM push into a MM + battle hellion push. Viable? The 11 minute MM push is still viable. I'd say that almost nothing has changed and it hasn't gotten any easier for Toss to hold these pushes off. At least in Masters Hots where i currently play. I'd say that MM+BHellions would also work, the only thing is that i've never tried doing that without medivacs so experiment and you'll see.
if your push is coming at 11 i'd say it isn't viable in wings of liberty either
i feel that battle hellions are a waste of resources, unless they're just something you happen to be able to make after opening hellion drop and saving them or something. battle hellions are not something you should consciously dump cash into imho, its just too low in range and most protoss will focus them or isolate them with forcefields before they come in with zealots. experimenting is good, and i can definitely see them working if you were able to work in a bio push at the front with a speed drop of the hellions in his main or something. the problem with getting these units so early is that you really never need an armory at the early stages in the game where the battle hellion is effective, so you end up delaying other things and your minerals are going into units that dont share ups.
I think the best style against protoss right now is the style byun was using a while ago, the style that opens with some hellions, and then goes into 3 CC 5raxes, 2 factories and 1 starport for MMMTV. with the new mines, bio mech is a lot better vs protoss, and with the new medivacs, if you get attacked whiley ou're dropping him you can boost and unload it quickly, whereas in the past your medivac still needed 10 more seconds to reach his base and counter attack. the medivacs are now able to drop protoss a lot easier, and you can save your units way easier as well, meaning that small drop harass while you build a large core MMMtank army is more viable.
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On January 26 2013 03:37 DerFreemind wrote:
@Stingart
Wol EU Master T here, i'm going through the replay right now. Here are my thoughts, be warned. It may seem harsh but this is how i analyze my own games. So i wish nothing but to help you.
- Expo on low ground? You will die to a 6-pool. And you deserve any loss through cheese because of your building placement.
- 6:00. I see you constructing too many supply deposts. You are not using that supply for a long time, that money could've been used for getting structures or units up way earlier.
- 7:30. 1) No scouting done 2) Very unoptimal building placement 3) no upgrades on the way 4) very little mount of units.
Could you provide a replay with good Building Placement? Or can you say some gernerall rules in terms of buildingplacement. Never thought about it!
http://www.gomtv.net/2013gsls1/vod/71475
bomber vs sniper g 1
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70603
maru vs effort g 1
this second one is a great exampel
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Haven't played for a long while and just got my beta key. I was a mid masters terran back in WoL but haven't touched it since Summer, back when the queen range patch hit.
Getting back and going to try to get a bit of a head start now in HotS and I have no idea how to play. What is the meta right now? What's viable? What's OP? Right now I'm doing really gimmicky stuff like no gas 6 rax to get a feel for the game again but I want to develop a playstyle. Is there any compendium of good HotS build orders and strats?
Thanks alot!
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Hi, I have no clue about how to play TvT. Tanks dominate the ground. Turrets/Vikings prevent drops. What are we supposed to do ?
Secure expansions and turtle to go Battle-Cruiser ?
Would appreciate replays.
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How do i deal with mass swarm host late game? These things with +3/3 easily destroy my mech army.
Siege tanks can be good but it's hard for me to get in a good position before they spawn units.
I tried using a few Ravens and Banshees but zergs get air units and the ground battles are not cost efficient at all.
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Im really confused as to the state of TvP
from WoL to hots
T got
hellbats - not really cutting it vs toss for me, any amount of archons DESTROY them.
tanks seige free- havent been meching vs toss I just get rolled over every time.
reaper is different- still useless
widowmines- havent found a good use for them, toss always has observers
P got
Nexus cannon and Slow on new Mothership core: both of these abilities are amazing. completely stop early pushes to the point that its not even worth trying them
Oracles- Lol.
Tempest- meh.
cheaper DT's so they are no longer all in even in early stages of the game
Better void rays
I am freaking terrified of the first 12 mins of the matchup, then I usually get slaughtered by collsi/storm later. I really have no idea how to appoach this.
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has anyone tried the good old marauder hellbat allin vs zerg??
zergs are used to holding it with roachling but i guess hellbats are better against roachling.
if zerg makes banelings then transform into hellions :O
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On January 29 2013 14:01 ThePlayer33 wrote:
has anyone tried the good old marauder hellbat allin vs zerg??
zergs are used to holding it with roachling but i guess hellbats are better against roachling.
if zerg makes banelings then transform into hellions :O
I used this in a last game vs a zerg and it worked pretty well. Basically hellbats form an enourmous meatshield for the marauders to keep their dps up. Fact is you can hit a timing right before infestors with a decent sized army, also since hellbats aren't armoured they take less damage from spine crawlers.
TvP though
I tried a bio+ghost+medivac+hellbat approach, and all went well since he went templar.
However he started to mass up tempests about halfway into the game and I fell into a dark hole.
I have NO idea how to counter this.
marines - you can't reach the tempests cos of storm and zealots
vikings - they're a joke vs tempests unless you have about 2,5x times as much as the toss has tempests, also storm makes it hard to reach them without having to spread perfectly which gives the tempests to get some extra shots off.
thors - I didn't get a chance to try them, but afaik tempests are supposed to counter them anyway.
there's nothing else that can hit air and isn't hard countered by tempests.
At one point I even got a pretty big squad of ghost+marine under his tempests to prevent him from storming, and even then I didn't have enough dps to take them all down..
Anyone have any clue how to deal with tempests in TvP?
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I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead
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On January 30 2013 09:16 Dagan159 wrote:
I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead
I think its pretty much the same as WoL TvP. The only thing is you have to watch out for different versions of all ins and aggression with the MSC. But if you are able to deal with those the only units you have to worry about that are different in HotS are Oracle and Tempest. Just put one turret in each of your mineral lines instead of one at your front when you get your Ebay. It's only 100 more minerals and keeps you safe from Oracles.
That's the only thing I can think of. Here's a guide for WoL TvP. If it's something that is different in HotS that you're having issues with could you post a replay?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289877
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On January 30 2013 10:20 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 09:16 Dagan159 wrote:
I am getting absolutely rocked trying to play standard TvP at (hots plat, prob around master WoL) level.
If anyone has some replays of standard, 10 mins mmm push style I would love to see it, particularly if the game goes long enough that the toss has 3+ bases and HT and collsi, because I am getting smashed at this point even if I am 1-2 bases ahead I think its pretty much the same as WoL TvP. The only thing is you have to watch out for different versions of all ins and aggression with the MSC. But if you are able to deal with those the only units you have to worry about that are different in HotS are Oracle and Tempest. Just put one turret in each of your mineral lines instead of one at your front when you get your Ebay. It's only 100 more minerals and keeps you safe from Oracles. That's the only thing I can think of. Here's a guide for WoL TvP. If it's something that is different in HotS that you're having issues with could you post a replay? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289877
basically my 10 min push/drops are falling flat because of the nexus cannon, and agiasnt good toss I end up doing absolutely NO damage. Then I get put in lategame and Ive never been able to do well here if Im not FAR ahead. when I try to EMP templars my ghosts usually get owned by collsi because toss keeps his temps very far back. I was wondering if there was any easier to execute hots strats I could inclue in my play. Any tips on managing the fight vs lategame toss?
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how do i beat mass swarm host when im going mech?
do i slowly hold with tanks and try to not get pushed back as i tech to bc/viking/raven behind? then i think u got the air covered so flood hellions back in if he tries any hydra crap
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I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
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On January 30 2013 11:42 ke_ivan wrote:
I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
Im having a real problem using the imba marines these days
widow mines + tanks
collsi + storms
defiler + swarm host + banelings
good options for all 3 races for shutting down our imba unit =(
turrets own oracles hard, I usually get 1in each mineral line and 1 to cover production. simultaneously helps vs DT"s which toss are getting more and more fond of.
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Is there a safe and effective way to open against someone in TvT now that Hellbat/Medivac openers are so popular? It seems really hard to safely FE again now that this push exists.
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Any counters to Templar + Tempest ???
Anyone? lol
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On January 31 2013 03:07 Tenks wrote:
Is there a safe and effective way to open against someone in TvT now that Hellbat/Medivac openers are so popular? It seems really hard to safely FE again now that this push exists.
Sees this is new meta. I just had a guy hold it with early tanks and bio, pref maurs. I think the ideal way to hold would be conc shell and just kite like a madman.
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even without conc shell u can kite them .. i usually scen with 2nd scan in tvt .. u can see it coming then ..2 rauders enough to hold also u should position rines to intercept the medivac if possible or atleast damage it so it cant heal the hellions
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On February 01 2013 10:11 AcidKing wrote:
even without conc shell u can kite them .. i usually scen with 2nd scan in tvt .. u can see it coming then ..2 rauders enough to hold also u should position rines to intercept the medivac if possible or atleast damage it so it cant heal the hellions
I feel that if you try to get marines to intercept the Medivac, the Hellbats are going to focus the marines. And the fact that you have to evacuate your SCVs from your main/nat and micro your marauders, you have lost a lot of mining time
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On January 30 2013 11:42 ke_ivan wrote:
I think the Raven is the most exciting unit (and it's old!) in HotS. I've been using it to harass mineral lines to and it's quite fun. Been practicing macro so I can't say much about the match ups. Except Marines are imba, but it's the only imba unit we got, so we have to go kill people early game. Either that or we transition to Sky Terran, which is okay of TvZ and TvT, but going Sky for Protoss? I think not.
TvP: Now I do a straight marine opener because zealot/immortal/archon eats everything else. And he's got 2 ways to get there too (DTs and HTs)! And both are annoying to deal with early game. Hellbats aren't the meatshields i hoped they'd be and widow mines are a great little annoyance but good for only defending small drops and light harass. An oracle can survive one hit so it takes two widow mines to defend on oracle early game. Plus, these days, Toss likes to move out with the mothership core, which is a bit of a minor annoyance. With tempests (Toss I've played with admitted it's a bad unit), sky Toss is almost unstoppable. Protoss now has so many options, I feel like it's more versatile than Terran.
TvZ: Swarm hosts are annoying. Especially in large numbers. Add Vipers to that army and it's a worse. The swarmlings are tougher than zerglings! WTH! Time it properly with corrupters brood lords and zerglings... lol. 10 tanks cannot kill the swarmlings of 8 swarmhosts.
TvT: Same old same old. All about positioning. Bio or Mech switch to air, and the bigger air army wins.
Z these days are becoming harder and harder to defeat. If mass swarm hosts are becoming a problem, a simple counter to that in a meching composition is the hellbat. Position them infront of your tanks. Hellbats usually melt these units if supported alongside by tanks and should take a minimal amount of damage. As for the actual swarm host itself, better players consistently relocate them, so killing the damage source will be difficult. This is when banshees come in. A tip for you, opening with 111 after expo does wonders in producing soft counters. If you open with a banshee harass, they work well with a mech comp in stopping mass swarm hosts in the sense that you can damage/kill them while they're burrowing. This forces the Zerg player to move back to the point where you can advance your attacking army and take out the expo.
Another important point to note is the relative immobility of mass Swarm hosts to bio. Bio mech is my general go to strategy in TvZ. With this, tanks provide good support fire to wittle down the swarmlings while you can drop 3 3 bio in their base and proceed to kill their expos. Also, if they do send reinforcements to defend, do a bigger drop. Swarm hosts cannot keep up the speed of a mass drop especially when they're aimed at your expansion. It's worth nothing that your main army at this point could be weaker than usual, so having a PF or several bunkers at the expansion is instrumental. When you fight against SHs it's better to play defensively while harassing, this forces Shs to be pulled back, giving you more map control. Without infestors, Z air is weaker than it was in WoL. If you're not winning the air battle pre-emptively build an extra starport. You should gain air superiority with better preparation, to which you would only really have to deal with swarmlings. Add a raven or two for PDD, which should let your vikings conquer those corruptors.
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On January 12 2013 12:48 NKexquisite wrote:
So in TvZ how are people handling Zerg's with 15+ 3/3 Swarm Hosts with a Bio type build? Ive tried doing some counter attacking and such but they are camped in the middle of the map spawning Locusts 3 screens away to your expansion... It basically only leaves the chance for a base trade it seems.
What about when using Mech? Tanks cant hit them, you can hardly unseige to move forward since the mass onslaught of Locusts is never-ending and banshees just get killed by Hydras that camp on top of the Swarm Hosts? Not to mention when you unseige to get a bit closer, the roaches and hydras stream in with the locusts and kill your tanks... I'm at a total loss.
What are people doing to counter these range 25 units? They are more boring and easy to use than Infestors... It's incredibly boring to play against.
If you don't have a techlab attached to your starport, an easy way to deal with the actual swarm host with bio is to do marauder doom drops. Load several medivacs with marauders and do a self unloading drop, scan and focus fire. This punishes players who leave their swarm hosts burrowed. However, the major risk is losing your entire drop force, so don't expect a good trade if players support SHs well.
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On January 29 2013 12:07 Dagan159 wrote:
Im really confused as to the state of TvP
from WoL to hots
T got
hellbats - not really cutting it vs toss for me, any amount of archons DESTROY them.
tanks seige free- havent been meching vs toss I just get rolled over every time.
reaper is different- still useless
widowmines- havent found a good use for them, toss always has observers
P got
Nexus cannon and Slow on new Mothership core: both of these abilities are amazing. completely stop early pushes to the point that its not even worth trying them
Oracles- Lol.
Tempest- meh.
cheaper DT's so they are no longer all in even in early stages of the game
Better void rays
I am freaking terrified of the first 12 mins of the matchup, then I usually get slaughtered by collsi/storm later. I really have no idea how to appoach this.
I play TvP with an FE > 4~6 rax build. Completely dependable on what i scout, it naturally flows in to a 10 minute push with medivacs on they way. Transitions into MMM + Ghost to finish the job.
Vikings and aditional starports are reactionary based on scouting. Once the medivacs arrive, i am constantly poking for weaknesses at the front and dropping or at least trying possible angles to drop. Even if it doesn't do damage, it gets a lot of information. I sometimes scan the area i feel he's trying to protect.
The MU doesn't scare me, i know any loss is my own fault.
- 3 marines stop MSC harass. This comes after you can set up a bunker+1 marine at the front, you're safe against this.
- 5 marines stop an oracle.
- 8 marines stop 2 oracles.
Relax when you go in a TvP, or in a match in general. Realize that early, mid and late game T is fine in HOTS. Drops are really where its at, the medivac boost is very powerful, saving your own units have a higher priority than doing damage. This was a huge realisation i had, learn it as well. TvX is about unit cost efficiency, if you do 0, you better have lost 0.
The reasoning i use for not trade your army for his economy is this: 1 marine for 1 probe is not a good deal unless you are absolutely safe. Trading evenly wil set you behind. His economy is there to sustain an army that can destroy yours. If you trade your units for his economy. Guess what? He suddenly has no need for a good army to kill you. Thus he doesn't need his economy and he will use his army to clean you up.
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I am trying to 1 Rax FE like I did in WoL, but I get wrecked by oracle builds.
1. TvP
What should I be doing to handle oracles, they seem OP, but probably only because I don't know how to handle them. I have tried putting 5 marines in anticipation of the oracle, but then when 2 oracles come I need 8 marines, and that leaves my natural very vulnerable. I have lost games where I have had 8 marines in my base to defend , and then he just sends the oracles plus warp ins at my natural to bust me, and the 8 marines in my base did nothing. I am not sure if I should just accept that I need to throw down 2 missile turrets per base, 400 mins....seems a bit much.
2. TvT
How to stop Hellbat drop? How many units do I need, and which units do I need to stop 4 hell bats+medivac?
Whats the standard opener? everyone is going 11 gas , 13 rax reaper, so I just usually get a marauder or defensive reaper then expand
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On February 03 2013 16:31 patronage wrote:
I am trying to 1 Rax FE like I did in WoL, but I get wrecked by oracle builds.
1. TvP
What should I be doing to handle oracles, they seem OP, but probably only because I don't know how to handle them. I have tried putting 5 marines in anticipation of the oracle, but then when 2 oracles come I need 8 marines, and that leaves my natural very vulnerable. I have lost games where I have had 8 marines in my base to defend , and then he just sends the oracles plus warp ins at my natural to bust me, and the 8 marines in my base did nothing. I am not sure if I should just accept that I need to throw down 2 missile turrets per base, 400 mins....seems a bit much.
2. TvT
How to stop Hellbat drop? How many units do I need, and which units do I need to stop 4 hell bats+medivac?
Whats the standard opener? everyone is going 11 gas , 13 rax reaper, so I just usually get a marauder or defensive reaper then expand
Stop doing 1rax FE!!! Its TOO greedy! For sure you can still doing it,but put the 2nd CC in the main first and scout your enemy and if you see him expand as well put it in your natural.For TvP you need ebay at 6:00 and the turret in each mineral line before 7:00.3 marines with the turret and you stop any harass.Oracles attack marines and turret if not manually targeting workers and if they do,will lose both of them,but yeah,without turret its almost impossible to stop.
TvT.
A viking,turret and focusing medivac con 3-4 marines stop the Hellbat drop.If you dont wanna make turret just put 2-3 widow mines.They will kill the medivac before it lands the hellbats.
The reaper is only for scout.He is totally inoffensive and can be stoped with only workers and 1 marine.The openings are still a lot as always in TvT and you must try scout to know how to response.Thats why people do Reaper and send him to enemys base.
11 gas is tto early.Everybody is going 12 rax 13 gas I think.You dont need the marauder to be safe
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Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
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I usually go for a 1 rax gasless expand. Protoss has been doing a nasty build where they rush with a zelot, stalker, and MSC, off of one gate. It is hard to stop because the can run past the bunker in some maps. Do you guys have a way of stopping this attack?
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On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
I've done it a few times. I've had a similar success rate that I did in WoL. I think it's weaker, but its also less expected.
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Not sure if I am the only one but... has anyone else been aving infinitely better games in hots? I have been playing alot more with widow mines and mech play in general. Most of my games go at least 20 mins with greats action start to finish. A few tips ive picked up playing mech...
Ravens are awesome. best vs Z, pretty good vs P, meh vs T,
vs P if you are having problems vs zTempests, remember that PDD blocks 20 Temp shots... = about 800 damage.
Hunter seeker great vs Z esp swarm hosts, if you start casting the seeker missle directly on top of swarm hosts almost no chance they can get away.
Widow mines are not very good early, but really shine late game. my strat of choice has been setting up a mine + tank wall, then harassing around the map with helions, medivac hellbats, raven huntersekers, etc... making the other person attack into you is amazing for mech and mines.
Thor drops early vs P are pretty fun and effective if they dont go blink
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On February 04 2013 02:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push? I've done it a few times. I've had a similar success rate that I did in WoL. I think it's weaker, but its also less expected.
Ah, good to hear.
On February 04 2013 02:09 Vague wrote:
I usually go for a 1 rax gasless expand. Protoss has been doing a nasty build where they rush with a zelot, stalker, and MSC, off of one gate. It is hard to stop because the can run past the bunker in some maps. Do you guys have a way of stopping this attack?
Honestly, 1 rax FE is way too greedy in the beta. Especially against protoss who has a lot of options (Oracle harass, MsCore pushes) that can destroy you if you don't invest into marines.. I would try a more safer build that delays the FE for a bunker.
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On February 04 2013 01:44 nomyx wrote:
Has anyone tried a revamped 1-1-1 push in TvP? Siege tanks without upgrades and widow mines seem like it would do wonders for the push. Or does the new Nexus Cannon cancel out the push?
So widow mines replace the banshees? no raven out of starport? I've tried it once and lost because of the nexus cannon
edit: marine,siege, banshee raven that is
I also don't get what the big deal with oracles are. I've had a few problems with them when I got caught off guard but most of the time one turret in each mineral line shuts it down hard
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how to avoid oracle killing 20 workers in 5 seconds if you aren't looking or army elsewhere? turrets are a must early game?
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On February 04 2013 13:57 IshinShishi wrote:
how to avoid oracle killing 20 workers in 5 seconds if you aren't looking or army elsewhere? turrets are a must early game?
I am no pro but that's what I'm doing. I find it hard to delegate marines both in my mineral lines and trying to stop Protoss from busting the front. I haven't tried widow mines yet though.
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i want to hear your experiences with mech bos vs p. How do you get fine into the midgame, vs any kind of allins, whatare your bos? i have tried a couple of things in the masterleague, but i felt like with 1rax expansions allins are too hard to hold if you follow up mech. So how do you guys open up and react/follow up?
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I just got back into SC2 and am low bronze in HoTS, high silver in WoL (playing mostly against Golds right now). I am well aware of how sucky I am, and I also realize that the HoTS leagues might be skewed a little bit, but I'm perplexed at how difficult I'm finding HoTS. I understand from reading this thread that perhaps my general BO is bad for HoTS (although the opinions on that seem pretty strongly divided). I do decently against zerg, but protoss kill me every single time. I've noted the posts above about oracles and will try to implement the suggestions there, but what I see most often is a push with MS Core and a few stalkers and zealots, and it crushes me every time. In the replay below, I had a full bunker, plus another 5 marines and a marauder when he hit with a MSC, 3 zealots, 3 sentries, and 2 stalkers, and he just annihilated me. What do I do to stop this? (I realize my macro isn't great, but even in games where I have WAY better supply count and army size, this push from protoss destroys me).
http://drop.sc/303048
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I disagree with people saying widow mines are no good
In TvZ i've been doing 1rax fe into reactor hellions, then after 4 hellions lift factory and make another reactor on it and replace with Starport
It's the same as the 930 Marine/Hellion/Medi timing, except now you load a medi full of widow mines, drop in his
main and use to delay mining and get drone kills,
You can also do all this as a straight up drop, using ur mines as a ground holder, zerg has to have overseer before he can engage ur marines / hellions with widow mines spread out to give you forward defense.
Then following up with 1-1 marine tank medi/mine push
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i cant play TvT for shit in HotS its so different from WoL and its frustrating as hell...
every TvT ends up being 45minutes with me losing i have no idea what to do ><
if i try hellbat drop they have turrets+bunkers in the mineral line so it insta-fails so im not doing that anymore
in WoL is rarely lost to ppl under grandmaster league or top8 masters in TvT and now i cant win vs diamond players and its pissing me off
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What are good defense against oracle opening? Would a widow mine work - do they one shot oracles?
What about friendly fire? Do the widow mine's friendly splash work on scvs if the widow mine fire on an oracle that is above my mineral line?
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On February 10 2013 10:21 llIH wrote:
What are good defense against oracle opening? Would a widow mine work - do they one shot oracles?
What about friendly fire? Do the widow mine's friendly splash work on scvs if the widow mine fire on an oracle that is above my mineral line?
As of the new patch the widow mine should one shot oracles, due to the extra shield damage, but I haven't tried yet myself. The mine will splash some of your SCV's for 40 damage, which won't kill them, and overall its a good hold if your mines hit the way it was already. Turret is still the safer option in my opinion.
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IS there any way to beat protoss after 17-20 mins mark if neither players harasses?
I just played a very long game, had 19 barracks 3 starports making ravens and 1 making viking medivac, but still never won , I emp his stuff before hand, use seekier missles on his collos/stalker, still zealots and archons get the best out of me, even if they dont have any aoe, to me waprgate late game is too strong, and cant find a way around it :/
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On February 10 2013 11:23 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 10:21 llIH wrote:
What are good defense against oracle opening? Would a widow mine work - do they one shot oracles?
What about friendly fire? Do the widow mine's friendly splash work on scvs if the widow mine fire on an oracle that is above my mineral line? As of the new patch the widow mine should one shot oracles, due to the extra shield damage, but I haven't tried yet myself. The mine will splash some of your SCV's for 40 damage, which won't kill them, and overall its a good hold if your mines hit the way it was already. Turret is still the safer option in my opinion.
Ok I am going to try it out. I just feel the turret is too slow. He gets so many kills and manage to get away without losing the oracle. I guess I could just put up a few and research range?
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On February 10 2013 20:16 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 11:23 Derez wrote:On February 10 2013 10:21 llIH wrote:
What are good defense against oracle opening? Would a widow mine work - do they one shot oracles?
What about friendly fire? Do the widow mine's friendly splash work on scvs if the widow mine fire on an oracle that is above my mineral line? As of the new patch the widow mine should one shot oracles, due to the extra shield damage, but I haven't tried yet myself. The mine will splash some of your SCV's for 40 damage, which won't kill them, and overall its a good hold if your mines hit the way it was already. Turret is still the safer option in my opinion. Ok I am going to try it out. I just feel the turret is too slow. He gets so many kills and manage to get away without losing the oracle. I guess I could just put up a few and research range?
No you definitely shouldn't research range that early. Just one turret in each mineral line should drive away the oracle without you taking too many losses, unless you're placing the turret in a really bad place.
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1 turret in each mineral line is of course more than enough to stop oracles. Also, wm 1-shot them.. I don't fear oracles anymore..
The problem I face when playing higher level Protoss players is that they just go for quick stargate, grab 3rd the second they scout I'm going mech and go for Zealot/Immortal/Archon + Voidray composition which is really difficult to deal with..
So far I've lost engagements basically no matter what composition I had. I was trying Hellbat/Tank/Thor + Ghost/Vikings as support and I've still lost because of warpin. Otherwise I was able to trade evenly, but that means losing in TvP.
I'm kinda ok with quick Tempests, because 2-3 Ravens + SCVs for mass repair makes for a really powerfull push and Protoss can't really do anything about this, you just kill his bases and even if he manages to clear you up, he's got no eco to catch up.
Any ideas?
edit: some high level TvP mech replays would be such helpful. If there is some +/- master Protoss willing to train with me, I'd be glad - Rope#2777
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On February 10 2013 13:54 never_Nal wrote:
IS there any way to beat protoss after 17-20 mins mark if neither players harasses?
I just played a very long game, had 19 barracks 3 starports making ravens and 1 making viking medivac, but still never won , I emp his stuff before hand, use seekier missles on his collos/stalker, still zealots and archons get the best out of me, even if they dont have any aoe, to me waprgate late game is too strong, and cant find a way around it :/
There is something wrong with your micro, it sounds like you did a good job but if you lost the fight, you did not. We must see your replay. Give it and we can give amazing feedback tailored for your play style. This will help you in all your games.
Or do not provide one and you will improve so very slowly, because your blindspots will be kept in the dark. It takes another man to point out mistakes you never thought you had.
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I advice anyone that is interesting in mech TvP to check StC's stream (I think there are like 2 Vods currently).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397711
He playes very BW feel-like mech in TvP and he wins A LOT with it.. Just slowly leapfrogging tanks/mines with raven/vikings checking air + sniping observers.. Really cool.
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can someone give me some builds for tvz, tvp, tvt?
all im doing now is the hellbat drop, expand and just go on from there.
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@mokumoku
Try this reaper build
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=393468
I had very fun moment with it + it's quiet effective vs P and vs Z. I currently get to mid master only playing that in all matchup in the beta
Vs T it's more difficult since everyone is doing hellbat drop and hellions counter reaper hard.
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Just tried out hots today for the first time. Only played 3-4 games so far but it seems quite fun.
What Im trying to create is a 3 reaper harass with two widowmines into 3 hellbat drop (only 3 reapers because I put down reactor on rax to switcharo with factory once done. The widowmines can function both offensively and defensively depending on what your opponent does is the idea. Mainly against protoss and zerg. Not sure if it would be any good vs T.
Trying to fit a build together as neatly as possible. Well see if its any good.
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how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition?
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On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition?
I am only Diamond, so take this with grain of salt, but if he has storm and dont donate somehow his HT or energy I just die no matter what composition I get. New Void Rays+Tempest/Carrier+Storm etc. just seem so powerful ...
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On February 11 2013 20:20 Everlong wrote:I advice anyone that is interesting in mech TvP to check StC's stream (I think there are like 2 Vods currently). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397711He playes very BW feel-like mech in TvP and he wins A LOT with it.. Just slowly leapfrogging tanks/mines with raven/vikings checking air + sniping observers.. Really cool.
I am obviousely not StC, but I have tried similat style and just got always rolled over by zealot+archon+immortal+new VR. I will check out his stream though, its more then likely that he does something much better. Thanks for a suggestion.
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is it even possible to beat turtle mech with bio/tank?
i feel like the only way to win in TvT is to go mech, which i think is extremely boring because of siege battles. its impossible to drop harass when opponents turtle up on fast 3cc with mines and turrets until they get a ton of tanks hellions and thors, not to mention the fact that mech allows them to virtually guarantee map control because of the mobility of hellions and when you morph them into battle hellions, it requires so much to take back things such as towers.
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I recently switched into hots on a serious level, currently mid masters. I have something like a 90% winrate TvT opening 12 rax 14 refinery reactor hellion expand into a strong 2 base hellbat marine push that I've yet to lose with. (Will be interested to see how this fairs considering hellbat nerf)
My TvZ consists of a 1 rax FE, grab a gas geyser, third CC, then second gas (like Bomber), 2 fac 1 reactor 1 tech lab, and 3 rax to begin with. I go up to 5 barracks and do a big 12 minutes marine marauder medivac widow mine push while I take my fourth.
My question however lies in TvP, I can't seem to find an opener that is safe. Protoss are consistently one base all inning me, I've tried to open with reapers, I've tried 1 rax FEing, the only thing I can confidently do to protoss to kill them as of right now is to 111, which is not how I want to play a match up. IS there a safe macro opener against protoss at this point? I feel MSC gives protoss too much of an ability to all in with that time warp spell, and voidrays massacre bunkers.
Any suggestions?
Also, will upload replays for TvT and TvZ when I get more collected data, literally less than 50 overall games played in hots so I'd like to refine my builds a bit before throwing them out to the community.
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On February 15 2013 05:10 Strykerz wrote:
I recently switched into hots on a serious level, currently mid masters. I have something like a 90% winrate TvT opening 12 rax 14 refinery reactor hellion expand into a strong 2 base hellbat marine push that I've yet to lose with. (Will be interested to see how this fairs considering hellbat nerf)
My TvZ consists of a 1 rax FE, grab a gas geyser, third CC, then second gas (like Bomber), 2 fac 1 reactor 1 tech lab, and 3 rax to begin with. I go up to 5 barracks and do a big 12 minutes marine marauder medivac widow mine push while I take my fourth.
My question however lies in TvP, I can't seem to find an opener that is safe. Protoss are consistently one base all inning me, I've tried to open with reapers, I've tried 1 rax FEing, the only thing I can confidently do to protoss to kill them as of right now is to 111, which is not how I want to play a match up. IS there a safe macro opener against protoss at this point? I feel MSC gives protoss too much of an ability to all in with that time warp spell, and voidrays massacre bunkers.
Any suggestions?
Also, will upload replays for TvT and TvZ when I get more collected data, literally less than 50 overall games played in hots so I'd like to refine my builds a bit before throwing them out to the community.
Really looking forward to your TvT replays
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Hi Everybody!
I have a question: I've been having troubles against late-game skytoss. I'm wondering what is the most potent combo to counter the skytoss deathball? Is it viking/bc/raven? or viking/raven? Is it even possible to try and whittle their deathball down using a bioball with ghosts? Any suggestions would be great thanks. (On a side note, I dont know if this has been answered already i just havent found the post if thats the case).
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I play mech in HotS in TvZ and get often crushed by roach/hydra with Viper support. My Composition is Tanks+Hellbat and maybe 2-4 Thors.
How do you react to this composition perfectly?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:43 saaaa wrote:
I play mech in HotS in TvZ and get often crushed by roach/hydra with Viper support. My Composition is Tanks+Hellbat and maybe 2-4 Thors.
How do you react to this composition perfectly?
I would say personally unless he's getting mutas or corrupters I wouldn't bother with thors. Get vikings instead as they've got much better range against the vipers and also use turrets to help zone him out too.
Make sure you never put your tnaks directly next to each other either, go for a nice line with a line slightly behind it and set up nice little killzones with some mines infront too. You basically want to make his vipers as useless as possible and force him if anything to waste his energy on abducts or clouds that only hit a single tank. You'll want to stay relatively defensive and very slowly push across the map moving your killzone closer and closer until you get into his bases.
The reason I say don't bother with thors is they're so big, take up so much supply and do so little damage to anything that isn't a clumped air unit they're not really worth it at all.
Oh one other thing that I'd say is ESSENTIAL with mech in HoTS is the raven. The raven has sok much usability late game against zerg and it makes both ultras and broodlords much easier to handle. Throw off some seeker missiles into his army to force him back if he does manage to cloud a lot of your stuff, and use that time to move your tanks back slightly. If he doesn't move back, he's guarenteed to lose a hell of a lot of stuff just from the HSM's if you place them correctly.
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On February 23 2013 04:43 saaaa wrote:
I play mech in HotS in TvZ and get often crushed by roach/hydra with Viper support. My Composition is Tanks+Hellbat and maybe 2-4 Thors.
How do you react to this composition perfectly?
You want a decent size of tanks, a larger amount of widow mines and a few hellbats for zerglings. Widow mines really help against flying in vipers and roaches. As long as you split up efficiently and don't clump all of your mines in one area you should be able to trade very effectively.
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On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition?
Thor, viking, raven, bc, widow mine. (few widow mines and bc's)
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On February 23 2013 05:08 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition? Thor, viking, raven, bc, widow mine. (few widow mines and bc's)
I want to see you doing this in a replay,but I think there is bigger issue and its callen not "Sky Toss".I mean the "Tempest/Carrier/HT" combo is impossible to beat for me.I tried some combos in the Unit Tester and thats what I got:
BC die easy to Tempest/Carriers. They even move them 360º trying to kill Interceptors.
Thors. The same as BC. Dont suffer the "bonus to massive" from Tempest,but the new AA ability is too slow and the javelin one tries to kill the Interceptors...
Raven is Ok.Deploy PDDs and you deny Tempest,BUT Interceptors crush PDD quick and HTs Feedback it...
Ghosts cant even reach the Ps army because of the Tempest/Carrier
Widow Mines.. 5 Range is totally useless.Have you ever faced Protoss without any obs?? I try snipe them,but they got 2-3 and are messed between Carriers and Tempest and its impossible to kill them.
Vikings are the HOPE. You need insane number of them but they are outranged of 1)Carriers (10 Leash reange) and 2)Tempest 15!!!! Their 9 range put them in the exact spot HTs need them.The cast of the Storm is 9 range,but the splash affects till 11.
I tried this: Sieged tanks are supposed to not allow HTs get in range to storm anything,but Tempest force Vikings to place between Tanks and them allowing the HTs to storm without exposing to Siege Fire.At the same time the Tempest can shoot the tanks. Here I see big Issue for T to stop this and cant find the solution.
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On February 23 2013 08:35 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:08 HTOMario wrote:On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition? Thor, viking, raven, bc, widow mine. (few widow mines and bc's) I want to see you doing this in a replay,but I think there is bigger issue and its callen not "Sky Toss".I mean the "Tempest/Carrier/HT" combo is impossible to beat for me.I tried some combos in the Unit Tester and thats what I got: BC die easy to Tempest/Carriers. They even move them 360º trying to kill Interceptors. Thors. The same as BC. Dont suffer the "bonus to massive" from Tempest,but the new AA ability is too slow and the javelin one tries to kill the Interceptors... Raven is Ok.Deploy PDDs and you deny Tempest,BUT Interceptors crush PDD quick and HTs Feedback it... Ghosts cant even reach the Ps army because of the Tempest/Carrier Widow Mines.. 5 Range is totally useless.Have you ever faced Protoss without any obs?? I try snipe them,but they got 2-3 and are messed between Carriers and Tempest and its impossible to kill them. Vikings are the HOPE. You need insane number of them but they are outranged of 1)Carriers (10 Leash reange) and 2)Tempest 15!!!! Their 9 range put them in the exact spot HTs need them.The cast of the Storm is 9 range,but the splash affects till 11. I tried this: Sieged tanks are supposed to not allow HTs get in range to storm anything,but Tempest force Vikings to place between Tanks and them allowing the HTs to storm without exposing to Siege Fire.At the same time the Tempest can shoot the tanks. Here I see big Issue for T to stop this and cant find the solution.
1) Scan -> clear Observers -> snipe/emp Templars -> engage
2) Viking/Raven/BC + Ghosts somewhat stand a chance...
3) Just kill them the second you see 2/3 stargate chronoboosting out air. There is no way Protoss is going to hold 2 or even fast 3 base 170-200 push with Hellbats/Thors/Tanks, Vikings/Raven + SCVs for repair...
This worked for me so far.
You can't play their game. They will eventually win, because they get off so many free shots. Your Raven energy will eventualy drain, or they will land storm, or you will lose units one by one, while he is going to kite forever with Tempests.
edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Interceptors drain PDD energy. Also, what are you doing with your BC's moving 360º around? You are supposed to fly in, yamato the shit out of everything and just win. Also, I don't think in those insane lata-game battles, leashing range matters at all.
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On February 23 2013 08:49 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:35 Dvriel wrote:On February 23 2013 05:08 HTOMario wrote:On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition? Thor, viking, raven, bc, widow mine. (few widow mines and bc's) I want to see you doing this in a replay,but I think there is bigger issue and its callen not "Sky Toss".I mean the "Tempest/Carrier/HT" combo is impossible to beat for me.I tried some combos in the Unit Tester and thats what I got: BC die easy to Tempest/Carriers. They even move them 360º trying to kill Interceptors. Thors. The same as BC. Dont suffer the "bonus to massive" from Tempest,but the new AA ability is too slow and the javelin one tries to kill the Interceptors... Raven is Ok.Deploy PDDs and you deny Tempest,BUT Interceptors crush PDD quick and HTs Feedback it... Ghosts cant even reach the Ps army because of the Tempest/Carrier Widow Mines.. 5 Range is totally useless.Have you ever faced Protoss without any obs?? I try snipe them,but they got 2-3 and are messed between Carriers and Tempest and its impossible to kill them. Vikings are the HOPE. You need insane number of them but they are outranged of 1)Carriers (10 Leash reange) and 2)Tempest 15!!!! Their 9 range put them in the exact spot HTs need them.The cast of the Storm is 9 range,but the splash affects till 11. I tried this: Sieged tanks are supposed to not allow HTs get in range to storm anything,but Tempest force Vikings to place between Tanks and them allowing the HTs to storm without exposing to Siege Fire.At the same time the Tempest can shoot the tanks. Here I see big Issue for T to stop this and cant find the solution. 1) Scan -> clear Observers -> snipe/emp Templars -> engage 2) Viking/Raven/BC + Ghosts somewhat stand a chance... 3) Just kill them the second you see 2/3 stargate chronoboosting out air. There is no way Protoss is going to hold 2 or even fast 3 base 170-200 push with Hellbats/Thors/Tanks, Vikings/Raven + SCVs for repair... This worked for me so far. You can't play their game. They will eventually win, because they get off so many free shots. Your Raven energy will eventualy drain, or they will land storm, or you will lose units one by one, while he is going to kite forever with Tempests. edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Interceptors drain PDD energy. Also, what are you doing with your BC's moving 360º around? You are supposed to fly in, yamato the shit out of everything and just win. Also, I don't think in those insane lata-game battles, leashing range matters at all.
1) How can you clear 3 Observers with 9 Range Vikings in the mass of 10 Carriers and 10 TEmpest? Same for HTs..They are too well protected,believe me.
2)Viking/RAven/BC+Ghosts got no chance vs mass Carriers/Tempest/HTs. They feedback the PDD and Ravens,ghosts cant reach to EMP,Observers doesnt die and Vikings alone vs Interceptors+Tempest shots are joke.
3)LoL.So now I just got to play 2 base all in with SCVs to repair? I need the 3rd to max and they are free to grab the 4th and even 5th unpunished.
I never use BCs.Such a expensive unit for only one Yamato shot?No,thanks.
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On February 23 2013 09:21 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 08:49 Everlong wrote:On February 23 2013 08:35 Dvriel wrote:On February 23 2013 05:08 HTOMario wrote:On February 13 2013 13:50 SHODAN wrote:
how do you deal with lategame sky toss with a mech composition? Thor, viking, raven, bc, widow mine. (few widow mines and bc's) I want to see you doing this in a replay,but I think there is bigger issue and its callen not "Sky Toss".I mean the "Tempest/Carrier/HT" combo is impossible to beat for me.I tried some combos in the Unit Tester and thats what I got: BC die easy to Tempest/Carriers. They even move them 360º trying to kill Interceptors. Thors. The same as BC. Dont suffer the "bonus to massive" from Tempest,but the new AA ability is too slow and the javelin one tries to kill the Interceptors... Raven is Ok.Deploy PDDs and you deny Tempest,BUT Interceptors crush PDD quick and HTs Feedback it... Ghosts cant even reach the Ps army because of the Tempest/Carrier Widow Mines.. 5 Range is totally useless.Have you ever faced Protoss without any obs?? I try snipe them,but they got 2-3 and are messed between Carriers and Tempest and its impossible to kill them. Vikings are the HOPE. You need insane number of them but they are outranged of 1)Carriers (10 Leash reange) and 2)Tempest 15!!!! Their 9 range put them in the exact spot HTs need them.The cast of the Storm is 9 range,but the splash affects till 11. I tried this: Sieged tanks are supposed to not allow HTs get in range to storm anything,but Tempest force Vikings to place between Tanks and them allowing the HTs to storm without exposing to Siege Fire.At the same time the Tempest can shoot the tanks. Here I see big Issue for T to stop this and cant find the solution. 1) Scan -> clear Observers -> snipe/emp Templars -> engage 2) Viking/Raven/BC + Ghosts somewhat stand a chance... 3) Just kill them the second you see 2/3 stargate chronoboosting out air. There is no way Protoss is going to hold 2 or even fast 3 base 170-200 push with Hellbats/Thors/Tanks, Vikings/Raven + SCVs for repair... This worked for me so far. You can't play their game. They will eventually win, because they get off so many free shots. Your Raven energy will eventualy drain, or they will land storm, or you will lose units one by one, while he is going to kite forever with Tempests. edit: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Interceptors drain PDD energy. Also, what are you doing with your BC's moving 360º around? You are supposed to fly in, yamato the shit out of everything and just win. Also, I don't think in those insane lata-game battles, leashing range matters at all. 1) How can you clear 3 Observers with 9 Range Vikings in the mass of 10 Carriers and 10 TEmpest? Same for HTs..They are too well protected,believe me. 2)Viking/RAven/BC+Ghosts got no chance vs mass Carriers/Tempest/HTs. They feedback the PDD and Ravens,ghosts cant reach to EMP,Observers doesnt die and Vikings alone vs Interceptors+Tempest shots are joke. 3)LoL.So now I just got to play 2 base all in with SCVs to repair? I need the 3rd to max and they are free to grab the 4th and even 5th unpunished. I never use BCs.Such a expensive unit for only one Yamato shot?No,thanks.
Well, you clearly are very set in your opinions and you like to theorycraft a lot, so I will not argue with you.
As Mario stated, you need some mix of BC's, Vikings, Ravens, Thors and possibly Mines and Ghosts and micro all those units correctly (you don't get BC's to do 360º flowers).
You might disagree and cry forever how impossible it is to beat mass Protoss air. But at least show some respect for players that are consistenly beating gm Protoss players with mech and don't just argument with "in unit tester, this is how it goes...".
Thank you.
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Sorry man, I wasnt trying to argue with you.
I am too frustrated with the situation and would be thankfull if you can provide me some links or replays of the Terrans in Master/GM beating Protoss with mech.I am trying to find them,but for now unsuccessfull. I think I am respectfull to any players in any league trying to beat their P opponents playing mech and only use the unit tester to try find some solutions.I got lot of TvP games playing Mech.Sometimes I win,but usually is always before P got his Air deathball.Just by myself cant find the answer to Carrier/Tempest/HT.IF there is any VOD,just let me know.
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Can Somebody explain TvP bunker placement on Howling Peak? Just lost two TvPs in a row on that map because of the weird natural.
If the bunker is far forward at the choke, he can go all the way around and attack your mineral line from the flank path, plus your bunker is incredibly far away from workers if you need to pull them to repair.
If the bunker is sort of in the middle of the big area, in line with the ramp, he can skirt around the bunker towards the flank path taking little damage and constantly poke your mineral line.
If the bunker is right next to your CC he can poke your main wall-off for free depot kills.
Am I over-looking something? Am I the only person who thinks this map is broken?
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Hey can someone tell me how to fight against the ridiculous new ultralisk? I just played one of my best macro games going marine-tank but the maxed engagements were always super lopsided for his 8-10 ultras + vipers
I mean without mech.
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On February 23 2013 17:36 13JackaL wrote:
Hey can someone tell me how to fight against the ridiculous new ultralisk? I just played one of my best macro games going marine-tank but the maxed engagements were always super lopsided for his 8-10 ultras + vipers
I mean without mech.
Marine/Tank is not an appropriate answer against ultras with plating. You need to focus on marauder production more than anything, unless you have upwards of ten tanks. Even then, the threat of vipers mean you still need vikings in your marine tank composition, since vipers are guaranteed to land cloud before they are killed.
Also, while i agree with most of HTOMario's responses to sky protoss, i feel that mines are not the best choice against it. For them to be effective, mines have to be in close proximity to deal damage, which exposes it to storms. Since any good sky toss comp is always accompanied with storms, having mines would just be dead weight in my opinion. My response in this case is to use that supply to make more vikings instead, which is the bread and butter vs skytoss.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:43 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 17:36 13JackaL wrote:
Hey can someone tell me how to fight against the ridiculous new ultralisk? I just played one of my best macro games going marine-tank but the maxed engagements were always super lopsided for his 8-10 ultras + vipers
I mean without mech. Marine/Tank is not an appropriate answer against ultras with plating. You need to focus on marauder production more than anything, unless you have upwards of ten tanks. Even then, the threat of vipers mean you still need vikings in your marine tank composition, since vipers are guaranteed to land cloud before they are killed. Also, while i agree with most of HTOMario's responses to sky protoss, i feel that mines are not the best choice against it. For them to be effective, mines have to be in close proximity to deal damage, which exposes it to storms. Since any good sky toss comp is always accompanied with storms, having mines would just be dead weight in my opinion. My response in this case is to use that supply to make more vikings instead, which is the bread and butter vs skytoss.
You need more marauders than marines. But you still need marines to kill the zerglings. You'll also want some tanks so he can't just make a ton of banelings and run you over. The key is effective splitting. You want slightly split marauders up front and all your marines behind. Try to kill him before he transitions to bls and kills you.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 10 2013 13:54 never_Nal wrote:
IS there any way to beat protoss after 17-20 mins mark if neither players harasses?
I just played a very long game, had 19 barracks 3 starports making ravens and 1 making viking medivac, but still never won , I emp his stuff before hand, use seekier missles on his collos/stalker, still zealots and archons get the best out of me, even if they dont have any aoe, to me waprgate late game is too strong, and cant find a way around it :/
Why are you making ravens? If you're gonna sit there vs protoss, of course you're gonna get run over. When using bio, terran's goal is always to kill protoss before he gets both colossus and storm. In late game, you want to make some planetary for defense. But it's really as simple as trying to kill all the colo with viking and emp all the ghosts. Yes it's incredibly hard.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
How to deal with mech in TvT? I prefer to go for bio mech so that i can zone areas to defend and use bio for counter attacks however right now hellbats are a lot more tanky so mech player can easily push though siedge line as result i lose my positioning(especially in midgame since my tank count is relativly compared to his. So what would be a good way to play against mech with bio tank composition?
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On February 23 2013 18:17 TRpredator wrote:
How to deal with mech in TvT? I prefer to go for bio mech so that i can zone areas to defend and use bio for counter attacks however right now hellbats are a lot more tanky so mech player can easily push though siedge line as result i lose my positioning(especially in midgame since my tank count is relativly compared to his. So what would be a good way to play against mech with bio tank composition?
You just CANT!!! Mech >> Marine+Tank >> Pure BIO. Thatas why nobody plays BIO in TvT and now in HotS its only Mech
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On February 24 2013 00:22 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 18:17 TRpredator wrote:
How to deal with mech in TvT? I prefer to go for bio mech so that i can zone areas to defend and use bio for counter attacks however right now hellbats are a lot more tanky so mech player can easily push though siedge line as result i lose my positioning(especially in midgame since my tank count is relativly compared to his. So what would be a good way to play against mech with bio tank composition?
You just CANT!!! Mech >> Marine+Tank >> Pure BIO. Thatas why nobody plays BIO in TvT and now in HotS its only Mech
You should watch GSTL pre-season. Bio Mech is still viable in TvT. You need to work with surrounds etc. It's harder then mech but if you like Bio Mech more you need to practice surrounding and positioning.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 24 2013 10:15 ShiiQ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 00:22 Dvriel wrote:On February 23 2013 18:17 TRpredator wrote:
How to deal with mech in TvT? I prefer to go for bio mech so that i can zone areas to defend and use bio for counter attacks however right now hellbats are a lot more tanky so mech player can easily push though siedge line as result i lose my positioning(especially in midgame since my tank count is relativly compared to his. So what would be a good way to play against mech with bio tank composition?
You just CANT!!! Mech >> Marine+Tank >> Pure BIO. Thatas why nobody plays BIO in TvT and now in HotS its only Mech You should watch GSTL pre-season. Bio Mech is still viable in TvT. You need to work with surrounds etc. It's harder then mech but if you like Bio Mech more you need to practice surrounding and positioning.
It's been more possible since hellbat upgrade has been introduced. Hellbat timings are not deadly early game anymore. It's still more difficult than wol but I think it's viable.
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What maps should i veto as a mech player? I'm not 100% sure about this
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I got inspired to try out HTOMario's mech style, since I saw some of his replays... BUT I'm quite terrible at it.. ^^
I guess it takes a lot of practice to be able to do it properly..
My problem is early game - And then again in the late game I struggle..
It might only be that I enjoy and am better at Bio than Mech, but Yesterday I decided to go bio first and ended with a 11/4 record, Then I switched to Mech TvP.. and was 12/14 by the end of the day ^^ :S
I would love to get it working but I'm not sure I can take another 10 losses in a row :D
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On February 25 2013 21:52 KenZo- wrote:
I got inspired to try out HTOMario's mech style, since I saw some of his replays... BUT I'm quite terrible at it.. ^^
I guess it takes a lot of practice to be able to do it properly..
My problem is early game - And then again in the late game I struggle..
It might only be that I enjoy and am better at Bio than Mech, but Yesterday I decided to go bio first and ended with a 11/4 record, Then I switched to Mech TvP.. and was 12/14 by the end of the day ^^ :S
I would love to get it working but I'm not sure I can take another 10 losses in a row :D
Playing mech TvP you need completely different mind set. I'm actually surprised you went 12/14, most people used to play bio go like 5/10 and then rage that mech is bad.. There are just so many different things you need to take care off. It's a lot about possition, engagement, upgrades, timings, scouting. You are doing well.
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How do i hold this Blinkstalker Mothership Core Allin with 1Rax Fe into Bio (3Rax etc.)? I really dont know how i should win against it.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
Is it possible to kite battle hellions with your bio?
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Hey I've been struggling a lot in TvZ. I play a passive mech style, but I'm getting rolled by any combination of Roach/Hydra/Late-Lair Tech (be it Swarm Host, Infestor, or Viper).
I just don't even know how to approach this-- My upgrades and army sizes are usually on par with my opponents, but I just can't beat their army.
How do my fellow Mechers approach this matchup, and how do they deal with either Vipers or Swarm Hosts?
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Does it make sense to bind all commands with mech on special key?
I mean (un-)siege, transform into hellbat/Hellion and (un-)burrow.. or should i learn different keys for every one of them?
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So now that the game is live what would be standard openers for every matchup ? ( Safe openers )
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I think......they still have to play hundreds of games first etc etc to be able to have a standard opener lol the game is officially 1 day old :S
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Yo mates,
havent been playing sc2 for nearly 2 years and coming back atm. Downside is that i have NO IDEA of HOTS buildorders so could someone of you link me some guides or BO's ?
(Was random diamond and protoss master)
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Hey what is the best counter to roach/hydra? mmm?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 14 2013 07:21 Badrobot wrote:
Hey what is the best counter to roach/hydra? mmm?
Mech counters roach hydra, but that's not really the best thing to say. Both are viable against roach hydra, but I'd say roach hydra is actually slightly better against bio than it is mech due to clouds.
As long as you get some vikings/turrets or thors with your army and get a load of hellbats (not affected by the cloud) then you can zone out the vipers and keep your mech force alive.
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In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 14 2013 22:38 Tenks wrote:
In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work?
I open reactor mines into CC and it works as long as they don't early tank push. If you scout that coming you need to retreat up your ramp and start getting your own tanks.
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On March 15 2013 00:33 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 22:38 Tenks wrote:
In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work? I open reactor mines into CC and it works as long as they don't early tank push. If you scout that coming you need to retreat up your ramp and start getting your own tanks.
How does it work against 888? My concern would be the mine range being pretty small and would be nearly impossible to mine your permimiter on a map like Star Station. I guess you could also possibly make hellions instead of mines if you see it is a reaper opener instead of a tank/banshee opener.
What do you generally do if the Terran instead opened something like 14cc or Rax FE? Mine drop?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 15 2013 01:41 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 00:33 Qikz wrote:On March 14 2013 22:38 Tenks wrote:
In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work? I open reactor mines into CC and it works as long as they don't early tank push. If you scout that coming you need to retreat up your ramp and start getting your own tanks. + Show Spoiler +How does it work against 888? My concern would be the mine range being pretty small and would be nearly impossible to mine your permimiter on a map like Star Station. I guess you could also possibly make hellions instead of mines if you see it is a reaper opener instead of a tank/banshee opener.
What do you generally do if the Terran instead opened something like 14cc or Rax FE? Mine drop?
Against 888 I'm not entirely sure because I've not come across it on ladder yet, but I would imagine with marine production you'd be fine on most maps (although Star Station is another story). In the beta I just built hellions instead.
If they go 14CC or 1rax FE then I just move my mines out infront of their base and spread them to force a bunch of scans or a raven if they want to move out. It's not guarenteed damage and yeah my CC will be slower, but I don't really feel in TvT (thanks to defenders advantage) that being behind as a meching player is really that much of a big deal.
The only issue I have with opening reactored mines, is I overmake the mines and get my tanks late, which means I've lost to a few one base pushes that I shouldn't have as they pushed with a raven.
EDIT: I have found reactor mines loses to most 1 base pushes even with tank production started a little earlier. If anyone has any success with it, please post, I'm switching back to opening tanks > mines :p
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Ah I'm a bio player in TvT so if I get behind in bases I start getting very nervous which is why I liked opening Rax FE or 14cc in WoL. Maybe I should just open 2rax in TvT.
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On March 15 2013 01:41 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 00:33 Qikz wrote:On March 14 2013 22:38 Tenks wrote:
In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work? I open reactor mines into CC and it works as long as they don't early tank push. If you scout that coming you need to retreat up your ramp and start getting your own tanks. How does it work against 888? My concern would be the mine range being pretty small and would be nearly impossible to mine your permimiter on a map like Star Station. I guess you could also possibly make hellions instead of mines if you see it is a reaper opener instead of a tank/banshee opener. What do you generally do if the Terran instead opened something like 14cc or Rax FE? Mine drop?
It's been a while since I played, but what is the 888 you speak of.
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On March 15 2013 14:28 Dreamer.T wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 01:41 Tenks wrote:On March 15 2013 00:33 Qikz wrote:On March 14 2013 22:38 Tenks wrote:
In TvT is it possible to hold off 888 if I 14cc? Yesterday I played someone who 888'd me against my 14cc. I "held it off" but really only prolonged my death since I was left with 2cc's and only 6 workers left after I got enough marines to drive away the reapers.
Is there a good, economical, opener that is safe against most early game TvT pressure? Would opening reactor mines work? I open reactor mines into CC and it works as long as they don't early tank push. If you scout that coming you need to retreat up your ramp and start getting your own tanks. How does it work against 888? My concern would be the mine range being pretty small and would be nearly impossible to mine your permimiter on a map like Star Station. I guess you could also possibly make hellions instead of mines if you see it is a reaper opener instead of a tank/banshee opener. What do you generally do if the Terran instead opened something like 14cc or Rax FE? Mine drop? It's been a while since I played, but what is the 888 you speak of.
8 supply depot
8 rax
8 gas
rax is usually proxied as well
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Someone explain to me how terran beats protoss late game, I can't win at all. Nukes seem like they cost more than they are helpful.
http://drop.sc/310450
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Hey, just started playing Hots today. Was a diamond Zerg in WoL but now switching to Terran so I was wondering.
What are the current standard openers in each matchup?
I have just been 888'ing in all of them
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So I have a few questions about playing Terran right now. I have been losing most of my matchups sadly. The only one I have a decent win rate with is against Toss.
1) I keep losing TvT trying to go Bio vs Mech. Should I go Banshees to take care of the tanks, or is there a better response? Cloak banshees are a little easy to shut down with Ravens and scans.
2) In TvZ, when should I timing push with bio? I'm having trouble dealing with roach/ling/hydra. What's the best Bio unit comp vs this kind of zerg strategy.
3) I generally get my second expand around the 6-7 minute mark, though it depends on scouting. The thing I never do is get a third expand. When should I get that? After my big timing push, assuming I can't finish them off?
Thanks guys! I managed to beat a Plat Toss player this morning, so hopefully my mechanics are getting a little better
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On March 15 2013 19:40 pStar wrote:Hey, just started playing Hots today. Was a diamond Zerg in WoL but now switching to Terran so I was wondering. What are the current standard openers in each matchup? I have just been 888'ing in all of them
Mid master terran here. I can just explain fast what i prefer to do in the different matchups.
I believe that in TvP the best build is still 1 rax fe into 3 rax + factory-starport.. and normal 10 push timing and standard play. But I've seen some factory openings with early widow mines that are really efficient. However, it requires good multitasking in the early game.
In TvZ a good opener is to open rax and gas, then make 3 reapers that you harass with, and behind it you make double command and a factory with a couple widow mines to followup. You can place one mine at his third and then you just bunker up and start making upgrades and structures.
What I like to do is command center first into 4 helions and 2 mines, then switch factory with starport and go for early drops. If done perfectly the first double drop will hit at 10 minutes. Third is taken slightly later in this build, maybe around 8.50-10 min. Important to deny overloard scout, or he will be prepared for your drops and then it's easy to fall behind.
TvT: 111 is very strong and I am exploring it. Mech is a good followup if you don't kill him at the first push.
Another build I saw that seems to be very strong, and a little cheesy is to go 1 rax and gas, then you make a proxy factory outside his main and you fly it in. Make fast widow mines that you rally in his mineral line, and then you support with reapers and cloacked banshee as followup. Second gas is taken when factory is building.
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On March 15 2013 20:07 Kazumo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:40 pStar wrote:Hey, just started playing Hots today. Was a diamond Zerg in WoL but now switching to Terran so I was wondering. What are the current standard openers in each matchup? I have just been 888'ing in all of them Mid master terran here. I can just explain fast what i prefer to do in the different matchups. I believe that in TvP the best build is still 1 rax fe into 3 rax + factory-starport.. and normal 10 push timing and standard play. But I've seen some factory openings with early widow mines that are really efficient. However, it requires good multitasking in the early game. In TvZ a good opener is to open rax and gas, then make 3 reapers that you harass with, and behind it you make double command and a factory with a couple widow mines to followup. You can place one mine at his third and then you just bunker up and start making upgrades and structures. What I like to do is command center first into 4 helions and 2 mines, then switch factory with starport and go for early drops. If done perfectly the first double drop will hit at 10 minutes. Third is taken slightly later in this build, maybe around 8.50-10 min. Important to deny overloard scout, or he will be prepared for your drops and then it's easy to fall behind. TvT: 111 is very strong and I am exploring it. Mech is a good followup if you don't kill him at the first push. Another build I saw that seems to be very strong, and a little cheesy is to go 1 rax and gas, then you make a proxy factory outside his main and you fly it in. Make fast widow mines that you rally in his mineral line, and then you support with reapers and cloacked banshee as followup. Second gas is taken when factory is building.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
I know everybody is still exploring but it's nice to have a little of guidance.
Off to ladder I go!
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So how about the new Medivac? Quite simply the best unit in the game. Can't wait for the nerf . Anyone agree?
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Do you place widow mine traps in TvZ and TvT or should i just keep them with my army and burrow them right before the engagement?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 15 2013 16:07 KingofGods wrote:Someone explain to me how terran beats protoss late game, I can't win at all. Nukes seem like they cost more than they are helpful. http://drop.sc/310450
Mech or bio?
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On March 15 2013 20:06 Alvas wrote:
So I have a few questions about playing Terran right now. I have been losing most of my matchups sadly. The only one I have a decent win rate with is against Toss.
1) I keep losing TvT trying to go Bio vs Mech. Should I go Banshees to take care of the tanks, or is there a better response? Cloak banshees are a little easy to shut down with Ravens and scans.
2) In TvZ, when should I timing push with bio? I'm having trouble dealing with roach/ling/hydra. What's the best Bio unit comp vs this kind of zerg strategy.
3) I generally get my second expand around the 6-7 minute mark, though it depends on scouting. The thing I never do is get a third expand. When should I get that? After my big timing push, assuming I can't finish them off?
Thanks guys! I managed to beat a Plat Toss player this morning, so hopefully my mechanics are getting a little better
sorry to post again, but really hoping someone can help me with this
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On March 15 2013 20:26 saaaa wrote:
Do you place widow mine traps in TvZ and TvT or should i just keep them with my army and burrow them right before the engagement?
Burrowing at strategic positions before. In battle they can be very dangerous due to the splash and the damage on own units.
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On March 15 2013 20:26 saaaa wrote:
Do you place widow mine traps in TvZ and TvT or should i just keep them with my army and burrow them right before the engagement?
Im not sure what style you play tvt but ive noticed that basically medivac drops are pretty much impossible to stop, therefore what is really important is 'baiting' your opponent into drops and using widow mines to take them out making it super cost efficient for you.
remember widow mine doesnt one hit medivacs so have it near a turret they will try and 'boost' over.
another factor here is when you are dropping watch out for this and the best drop success for me seems to be from boosting into the base at weird angles that people would never drop from with wol medivacs as here should be undefended.
it depends how many you are making as well, if you are replacing siege tanks for widows mines to go bio widow mine in tvz then obviously you need several with your army...but if placed well widow mine traps can be really cost efficient so i always try to have 2 or 3 on the map for traps....even if they dont get lots of kills theyre still very important for map vision, just remember to move them when your enemy knows where they are.
I prefer their use not directly in my army but its still early in the game and it also seems like a personal preference thing rather than a right or wrong
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On March 15 2013 20:26 saaaa wrote:
Do you place widow mine traps in TvZ and TvT or should i just keep them with my army and burrow them right before the engagement?
For what it's worth, I have found that they are most effective either as traps or as defense. If your opponent knows they are there, they can be great at shielding you while you remacro, so most often I will drop them behind where I think the engage will happen. If the fight doesn't go my way, I fall back on top of the mines while reinforcements move in. It's a really defensive way to use them, and probably not the most efficient.
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Protoss is so OP right now. Its ridiculous! Can't do anything against them.
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United States8476 Posts
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EPT
